Vespa vs. Japanese scooters?
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Sun May 26, 2019 10:29 pm quote
Akira here we come.

Bill x
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Sun May 26, 2019 10:53 pm quote
Bill Dog, who by the way isnít supposed to be posting in this thread wrote:
Akira here we come.

Bill x
2021
Should be some cool scooters on the big screen.
eeee-bip
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Sun May 26, 2019 11:17 pm quote
Total
I was quite happy to but then I changed my mind.

Can't think why.

Bill x
eeee-bip
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Mon May 27, 2019 5:46 am quote
Throwback
We didn't mention the Hodna SH300.

Simple, quick and handled really well because of those big wheels.

Not pretty I'll admit but a godsend to the take out delivery crue.

Yes, I said crue.

Bill x
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Mon May 27, 2019 6:12 am quote
Bill Dog wrote:
We didn't mention the Hodna SH300.
We did, you just didn't read it.
robinm wrote:
The specs for the SH300 are even better. It's just when you
see them in the flesh that it all gets a bit disappointing.
eeee-bip
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Mon May 27, 2019 6:24 am quote
Big
Yup my bad. Mentioned on page 1.

Do they still make the Hodna Silverwing ?

Bill x
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Mon May 27, 2019 6:54 am quote
Don't see the S'wings here in Canada on their site, but plenty of used ones on many other bike sites.
eeee-bip
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Mon May 27, 2019 4:01 pm quote
Promotional Event
And there's always this modern classic.

923-honda-cub.jpg

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Tue May 28, 2019 12:48 am quote
eeee-bip
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Tue May 28, 2019 9:24 am quote
Stealth
This XMax looks pretty sexy in Black.

328d21e7-f103-4fa3-8508-687d2bcffc24.png

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Tue May 28, 2019 9:50 am quote
Yes but if it's anything like the Tmax, I'll be steering with my knees. Guess I'll have to sit on it Fonzie.
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Tue May 28, 2019 10:56 am quote
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Tue May 28, 2019 11:41 am quote
I would forsake all things Piaggio/Vespa if Honda would bring the 750 to the U.S.

2018-honda-x-adv-review-specs-motorcycle-dct-automatic-scooter-adventure-bike-candy-red-1.jpg

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Tue May 28, 2019 5:46 pm quote
breaknwind wrote:
I would forsake all things Piaggio/Vespa if Honda would bring the 750 to the U.S.
Got to say, I'd take a long think on that too.
Frankly I don't know which way I lean.
Having an NC700 with the DCT I can say it's nice to have 700cc.
But it isn't comfortable.
And even the X-ADV requires one to throw a leg over it.
But then, I can still do that....
If it has the same ergonomics as my MP3 it would be REALLY hard to walk on by...
But then, I already have the MP3 and it's paid for.
But it doesn't have the oomph of 700+cc that I (personally) think wise on I-90...
I suppose I could sell both the MP3 (for basically nothing) and the NC700 (for a little more than basically nothing) and get an X-ADV.


I'd still have the GTS though....
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Tue May 28, 2019 8:46 pm quote
The fundamental question is: where does the scooter end up as a concept and where does the bike start?
eeee-bip
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Tue May 28, 2019 9:37 pm quote
So
It's a bit like when Aerosmith met RUN-DMC.

The combination was so good nobody actually cared.

You're welcome.

Bill x
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Tue May 28, 2019 10:11 pm quote
Attila wrote:
The fundamental question is: where does the scooter end up as a concept and where does the bike start?
It's more that the scooter is constantly evolving. Could they have manufactured the PX 150 in 1948? Probably not. Helix in 1965? Probably not. GTS in 1979? Probably not. The Tri-city in 1985? Probably not. This in 1999? Probably not. But once companies were able to make them, they were obviously scooters, at least to people who make fun of scooters. IF you described what you ride now to someone twenty years ago, they wouldn't have thought you were describing a scooter, anymore than describing a Honda Helix to someone in 1965, who knew about scooters from what was available at the time, would have made them think, "The scooter of the future, I'll bet it flies." If you described this fifteen years ago, nobody would have thought you were talking about a scooter. But I can guarantee you that quite a few people have looked at that thing now and said to someone, "Get a real motorcycle. This looks like a moped." or as my ex-gf used to say, "a big, stupid moped." so we'd take the car instead.
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Tue May 28, 2019 10:17 pm quote
End of our first week in rural, not-wealthy Spain: Asian scooters abound and Iíve seen maybe ten Vespas total.

While on the other hand Iím reminded that, unlike the states, Europeans still produce, buy and drive their own cars.

I do know Iíll see more Vs in Madrid etc but that actually affirms the argument that here, as in the states, Vs are a largely high end niche item.

Not sure what to make of that, but it does challenge my assumption that the US and Euro Vespa markets are not all that different.

So if Piaggio has set out to be the Mercedes of scooters, well done. But if not, well, yer doing it wrong.

Last edited by tdrake on Tue May 28, 2019 10:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tue May 28, 2019 10:19 pm quote
PS: in rural Andalucia everyone rides dirt bikes, so I assumed that explained the lack of Vs, but nope ó scooters abound in Extremadura.
eeee-bip
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Tue May 28, 2019 11:06 pm quote
Hill
The last time I was in Spain all I saw was Kymcos which was a little weird.

Granted it was only one day but they were everywhere.

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Tue May 28, 2019 11:27 pm quote
Bill Dog wrote:
The last time I was in Spain all I saw was Kymcos which was a little weird.

Granted it was only one day but they were everywhere.

Bill x
Yup, hasnít changed!
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Wed May 29, 2019 12:09 am quote
Motovista wrote:
Attila wrote:
The fundamental question is: where does the scooter end up as a concept and where does the bike start?
It's more that the scooter is constantly evolving. Could they have manufactured the PX 150 in 1948? Probably not. Helix in 1965? Probably not. GTS in 1979? Probably not. The Tri-city in 1985? Probably not. This in 1999? Probably not. But once companies were able to make them, they were obviously scooters, at least to people who make fun of scooters. IF you described what you ride now to someone twenty years ago, they wouldn't have thought you were describing a scooter, anymore than describing a Honda Helix to someone in 1965, who knew about scooters from what was available at the time, would have made them think, "The scooter of the future, I'll bet it flies." If you described this fifteen years ago, nobody would have thought you were talking about a scooter. But I can guarantee you that quite a few people have looked at that thing now and said to someone, "Get a real motorcycle. This looks like a moped." or as my ex-gf used to say, "a big, stupid moped." so we'd take the car instead.
There is a famous historical precedent in Italy ...
In the 50s Ducati built the Cruiser 175 with automatic torque converter
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducati_Cruiser
but the time was not ripe and the project was too ambitious, moreover the technologies were immature for the generational leap. Then there was a fearsome and cheap competitor that still today competes with giants of the scooter world, was (and is) the Vespa.
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Wed May 29, 2019 12:23 am quote
tdrake wrote:
End of our first week in rural, not-wealthy Spain: Asian scooters abound and Iíve seen maybe ten Vespas total.

While on the other hand Iím reminded that, unlike the states, Europeans still produce, buy and drive their own cars.

I do know Iíll see more Vs in Madrid etc but that actually affirms the argument that here, as in the states, Vs are a largely high end niche item.

Not sure what to make of that, but it does challenge my assumption that the US and Euro Vespa markets are not all that different.

So if Piaggio has set out to be the Mercedes of scooters, well done. But if not, well, yer doing it wrong.
A European point of view is needed, Vespa in Europe is a very expensive product; who buys it does it more for fashion and aesthetics than for performance and comfort that there are. Then there are tax reasons that change from country to country. Regarding cars the comparison with the U.S.A. is unthinkable, here there are many small cars with engines between 800 cc and 1200 cc and half with LPG or CNG fuel (I have a Fiat 500 X 1.6 LPG Ä 0.590 against 1.70 Ä petrol per liter). Gasoline prices have a big influence on the vehicles you buy, in fact Piaggio also produces 125 and 150 cc scooters, the latter displacement because up until very recently it was the minimum limit for access to highways and ring roads. Even the stages are small, narrow and very rich in traffic, which has become the spring for the return to the scooters. As you can see, it is the general context that affects the market.
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Wed May 29, 2019 12:30 am quote
tdrake wrote:
PS: in rural Andalucia everyone rides dirt bikes, so I assumed that explained the lack of Vs, but nope ó scooters abound in Extremadura.
In the Iberian countries there is a long tradition of manufacturers of motorcycles for cross, enduro and trial ... a bit like the Penton in U.S.A. (great man, who is interested in motorcycles at 360 degrees as i consider him a genius)
Hooked
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Wed May 29, 2019 9:11 pm quote
Smaug wrote:
I thought sure this would have been discussed, but I didn't find a thread when I searched for it.

I did find one about vs. Chinese, but that's different.

To those of you have owned both, please give some honest and complete feedback on the following areas:

- Fit and finish
- Long-term reliability
- Acceleration
- Ride quality
- Fuel economy
- Overall satisfaction with ownership
- Parts prices
- Ease of self-servicing (assuming moderate mechanical skill)

In cars, I'm not really in any danger of being able to afford a premium Italian one. For scooters? Maybe. I read a lot of good things about Vespa, but part of me feels like some of it is brand pride and fandom.

For example, it's common with a Japanese bike to read: "never a problem." For Vespas, I more often see that it is "trouble free, except that one time the xx went out and stranded me"

What has your experience been?
Ive owned a Vespa Primavera and a Vespa GTS 300 and both flawless.
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Wed May 29, 2019 11:00 pm quote
Attila wrote:
Motovista wrote:
Attila wrote:
The fundamental question is: where does the scooter end up as a concept and where does the bike start?
It's more that the scooter is constantly evolving. Could they have manufactured the PX 150 in 1948? Probably not. Helix in 1965? Probably not. GTS in 1979? Probably not. The Tri-city in 1985? Probably not. This in 1999? Probably not. But once companies were able to make them, they were obviously scooters, at least to people who make fun of scooters. IF you described what you ride now to someone twenty years ago, they wouldn't have thought you were describing a scooter, anymore than describing a Honda Helix to someone in 1965, who knew about scooters from what was available at the time, would have made them think, "The scooter of the future, I'll bet it flies." If you described this fifteen years ago, nobody would have thought you were talking about a scooter. But I can guarantee you that quite a few people have looked at that thing now and said to someone, "Get a real motorcycle. This looks like a moped." or as my ex-gf used to say, "a big, stupid moped." so we'd take the car instead.
There is a famous historical precedent in Italy ...
In the 50s Ducati built the Cruiser 175 with automatic torque converter
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducati_Cruiser
but the time was not ripe and the project was too ambitious, moreover the technologies were immature for the generational leap. Then there was a fearsome and cheap competitor that still today competes with giants of the scooter world, was (and is) the Vespa.
A lot of things are obvious only in hindsight.

Pretty much everything in the PX150 could have been built with 1948 technology except the electronic ignition -- and of course they had no idea what could be accomplished with better porting. The plastics would have been terrible, too.

An early-1960s Helix would have had the body of the Honda Juno K and the powertrain of the Mitsubishi Silver Pigeon. This gives all of the functional elements of the Helix, but doesn't include the variator-on-rear-swingarm, engine-on-swingarm powertrain configuration. Vespa would pioneer this configuration on their late 1970s mopeds. And once that was known to work, all that's needed to make a GTS is to scale it up and add a watercooled four-stroke engine (and of course do the tooling to stamp out the appropriate unibody frame).

You probably could have built a Tricity in 1985, but not at an affordable price.
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Wed May 29, 2019 11:49 pm quote
But Piaggio built the first Vespa with variator (PKA 125) by building an excessively complicated transmission system.
Quotation: "The automatic transmission includes a clutch engaged by the expansion of 3 centrifugal masses and a trapezoidal belt with a pair of pulleys whose sides approach or move away, determining the variation of the ratio. The gearbox is moved by the rotation speed of the 'crankshaft and a hydraulic actuator.There is then an additional command to insert a short ratio in case a higher starting point is needed.After 1987 the Automatic version (VAM1T) evolves into the Plurimatic version (VVM1T) with small aesthetic updates the elimination of the hydraulic device, the only real defect of the Automatica.The solution is technically valuable but has some defects: it is expensive, absorbs power, has high consumption and is fragile.Too bad, because in terms of driving pleasure it is an almost perfect automatism. "
Link to: http://www.vespaclubsanvincenzo.it/Vespa%20Tecnica/38_Vespa_PK_1982/Vespa%20PK_1982_1.pdf
Only 10.000 pieces were built and then production was stopped due to problems with this type of transmission. Today it is a historic vehicle with rising prices.
https://www.museopiaggio.it/collezioni/vespa-pk-125-s-automatica-elestart-vvm1t/
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Thu May 30, 2019 12:23 am quote
Attila wrote:
tdrake wrote:
PS: in rural Andalucia everyone rides dirt bikes, so I assumed that explained the lack of Vs, but nope ó scooters abound in Extremadura.
In the Iberian countries there is a long tradition of manufacturers of motorcycles for cross, enduro and trial ... a bit like the Penton in U.S.A. (great man, who is interested in motorcycles at 360 degrees as i consider him a genius)
Trial, enduro and motocross have been big around here too... probably because we have plenty of woods and used to have less paved roads. In the village I was born, it happened to be trial that was the number one 2-wheel motorsport.

As we had many practitioners, we also hosted European championship competitions... as a boy, I was doing "my duty" there as an assistant referee, looking after forbidden lines and ground touches... anyway, Spanish riders were always among the most admired ones.

... and of course still are, like Toni Bou in the picture! When you'll watch the things these guys do with a motorcycle, tarmac track riding easily starts to look a bit boring....kind of opposite skills though: one keep a bike non-moving in impossible positions, the other makes bike move ridiculously fast in impossible positions!

Trial-Toni-Bou-reprend-les-renes.jpg

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Thu May 30, 2019 12:33 am quote
Madison Sully wrote:
breaknwind wrote:
I would forsake all things Piaggio/Vespa if Honda would bring the 750 to the U.S.
Got to say, I'd take a long think on that too.
Frankly I don't know which way I lean.
Having an NC700 with the DCT I can say it's nice to have 700cc.
But it isn't comfortable.
And even the X-ADV requires one to throw a leg over it.
But then, I can still do that....
If it has the same ergonomics as my MP3 it would be REALLY hard to walk on by...
But then, I already have the MP3 and it's paid for.
But it doesn't have the oomph of 700+cc that I (personally) think wise on I-90...
I suppose I could sell both the MP3 (for basically nothing) and the NC700 (for a little more than basically nothing) and get an X-ADV.


I'd still have the GTS though....
I believe I'd have the Honda NC750X right now, if that wasn't so darn uncomfortable and also a tad tall seat hight for me. That's actually funny - it all comes to the seat. If they would have a construction with variable seat hights AND softer seat, I'd probably own one right now.

I like my Triumph better, but with the price difference... heck, I'd get 1,5 Hondas with the price of the Triumph here, I believe I would have chosen a comfortable version of the NC750X.

I really liked the gearbox, also the new 750cc version engine, the incredibly low center of weight (think BMW boxers) and overall rideability. But I could not get both of my feet to touch the ground at the same time and my bum hurt after 30 min ride....
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Thu May 30, 2019 12:36 am quote
... oh yes ... it's nice that going on two wheels is without limits but also for sports as well as for fun.
When i was young (around 20 years) i practiced enduro with a Yamaha XT 500 ... other times.
I also liked the Honda DN 01, too bad they don't produce it anymore ...it was a good alternative, half motorcycle and half scooter (plus motorcycle in fact).

Last edited by Attila on Thu May 30, 2019 12:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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Thu May 30, 2019 12:41 am quote
Park
Yeah. I lasted an hour on an NCX 700 then had to get off.

It's even worse than a Royal Enfield Continental GT and that's saying something.

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Thu May 30, 2019 12:44 am quote
Re: Park
Bill Dog wrote:
Yeah. I lasted an hour on an NCX 700 then had to get off.

It's even worse than a Royal Enfield Continental GT and that's saying something.

Bill x
At least the Enfield buys you with half the money you need...
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Thu May 30, 2019 12:58 am quote
Perhaps I've found my superpower? I can sit on my NC750X for about 2 hours before thinking about how nice it would be to stop for a coffee. I can also ride my Enfield all day or at least till it breaks down.

PS just kidding about the breaking down, it's been fairly reliable so far.
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Thu May 30, 2019 1:02 am quote
Chack
Look at the depth of the seat on the Enfield and then compare it to the NCX and tell me how the Enfield is more comfortable ?

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Thu May 30, 2019 1:18 am quote
It also depends on the size of the pilot.
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Thu May 30, 2019 1:34 am quote
This
Attila wrote:
It also depends on the size of the pilot.
I'm a very skinny guy and suspect the lack of natural cushions play a role here.

Like with the Triumph Scrambler OEM solo seat, that has reviewed to be comfortable by many magazines: With my core tex pants, that have a build-in "cushion" it feels comfortable, not plush though. With my leather pants, I'll wish to strech a bit, say after 1-1,5 h ride. With my thin riding jeans, I feel the seat a bit hard....
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Thu May 30, 2019 1:42 am quote
Bill Dog wrote:
Look at the depth of the seat on the Enfield and then compare it to the NCX and tell me how the Enfield is more comfortable ?
The NC750X does have a comfy saddle but it''s the riding position that eventually gets me. It all feels fine for the first hour but after two hours I start getting cramps in my left knee. No idea why. I think there are saddle upgrades that can be bought but it's never really been that big an issue for me. You can adjust the angle of the seat with washers but you can't lower the existing seat - shame really as a system like BMW's would be nice. You can also buy more comfortable gel seats for around £150.

My Enfield has a sprung saddle and I find it suits me quite well. It's a bit like an old school bicycle seat but wider. I don't ride fast on it so I don't get heavy vibes through the bars. The Vespa is certainly more comfortable than both but then you have to jump off every 100 miles to refuel. The other two bikes do around 250 miles.
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Thu May 30, 2019 2:06 am quote
... and this slightly off-topic discussion gives an other angle: "Italian", "Japanese" and "British" brands. OK, not many "British" scoots nowadays (that I know of), but it's definitely one school in the motorcycle industry.

To be honest, the biggest consideration for me before I bought a Triumph, was also quality. I have an ex colleague, who's been tinkering with British bikes most of his life....and as you know, the older Triumphs have some "character".

But I heart many good testimonials from newer Triumph owners, also from here MV. The last proof came from my neighbour, who used to head a bike workshop for a Japanese brand, then BMW and lately BMW and Triumph (... and actually Vespa too!). He didn't find modern Triumph "character" significantly worse than that of a modern Beamer.
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Thu May 30, 2019 4:47 am quote
Globalization, it's everywhere ... there is no longer a distinct character; perhaps even for this reason retro vehicles sell and resist better.
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Thu May 30, 2019 5:51 am quote
Pop
Globalisation is every where. That may well be the funniest thing you ever said.

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