Rear wheel click? Hub Bearing?
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Member
1963 GL150
Joined: 01 Jun 2019
Posts: 13
Location: Portsmouth NH USA
Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:28 pm quote
Hello All, I have a 63 GL150. It is a gem and really enjoy riding it. However the other day I noticed that I was hearing a clicking sound from the rear wheel.

I jacked up the back and found the rear wheel run out to be very bad. I then removed the wheel/hub to investigate.

There was definitely a decent amount of oil that was getting by the seal. Which I cleaned up. The Brakes looked good and nothing was out of place. I will definitely replace the seal. I also checked my gearbox oil level which was ok. I do replace the oil every 1000 or so it never got too low I think.

I checked to see if there was any play in the shaft and it seemed fine. There was no movement in any direction.

I snugged up the castle nut on the hub and was able to remove the play.

The wheel/hub spins freely. There is a very quiet sound that occurs in the same rotation of the wheel, but could be the brake shoe slightly dragging at a high point.

When put back on the ground the click comes back. I took it for a quick short ride and it continued to click.

I unfortunately fear that it is the rear hub bearing and it needs replaced. I think that due to me allowing the rear wheel to loosen up might have caused the bearing to fail.

Does this make sense, or should I look further or for something else?
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GL, PK, PE200
Joined: 24 Apr 2012
Posts: 641
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:42 pm quote
That clicking in the gearbox can be anything from gear selector, axle, and everything connected. The loose wheel may have caused pressure on the axle to bend it a little. You can start at the gear selector and check if anything is worn in there, check the clutch next...maybe, but eventually it may need opening.

Is the motor original to the GL? Has it ever been open?
Member
1963 GL150
Joined: 01 Jun 2019
Posts: 13
Location: Portsmouth NH USA
Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:06 pm quote
Thanks rowdyc, This is my 1st Vespa so I am learning it as I go. Been a motorcycle(mostly Ducati's) and car guy my whole life and thoroughly enjoying this GL.

I did not think to go that way to look for the source of the click. I will take a look at the gear selector. I had to adjust it a while ago as 2nd was not detenting correctly and the shifts were a bit sloppy.

Hoping that the source of the noise is found without having to drop the engine and split the case. It would be my 1st time doing it on a Vespa so I would be cautious.

It is the original GL150 engine. However it was rebuilt just before I bought it. Been running fantastic for three years and about 3000 miles. Normal maintenance only required until now.

I appreciate the suggestions on what to look at as this is my 1st Vespa. I am not afraid to get into the mechanics and actually enjoy it.
Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 63 Li125, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3216
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:28 pm quote
VBB Gears jammed and now this sound

Does your clicking sound like this?
Member
1963 GL150
Joined: 01 Jun 2019
Posts: 13
Location: Portsmouth NH USA
Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:49 pm quote
The clicking is independent of the engine running. It occurs when there is a load on the rear wheel. Even the weight of the scooter is enough. It is in time with the rotation of the tyres.

Tomorrow I will make a video of it for people to understand better.

Oh and GO Bruins!!!!!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6951
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:58 am quote
I had something that sounds similar from your description. It was the cruciform rubbing on a gear from memory. If you remove the selector box and are able to stop it making the noise by moving the selector rod by hand then that might be it.
Lurker
GTS 300 ie Super
Joined: 02 Jun 2019
Posts: 2
Location: Nailsworth Glos England
Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:35 am quote
I had a similar problem on my GTS300. It started out as a click (like yours) and soon turned into loud banging, like gunshots. When I disassembled I noticed some wear on the axle shaft on the spot where the bearing sits. This indicated to me that the bearing wasn't spinning and the axle was just grinding away inside the bearing. So, I bought a new bearing, hammered out the old one and used a vice to press-fit the new one into place. It's been fine ever since, but it sure sounded bad and was worrying to ride. I hope this helps. Oh, make sure you tighten up that wheel nut.
Member
1963 GL150
Joined: 01 Jun 2019
Posts: 13
Location: Portsmouth NH USA
Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:29 pm quote
Here are the video's to listen to the "click"

https://youtu.be/Ne-PXv4eu_g

https://youtu.be/jxNi1agrLiI
Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 63 Li125, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3216
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:45 pm quote
Are the cables clear of the spinning tire? Notice any strange wear on the tire from it possibly rubbing on something?
Hooked
59" Allstate
Joined: 03 Aug 2018
Posts: 176
Location: TC Florida
Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:38 am quote
Maybe its just me but I don't think the noise is coming from inside the gearbox. I would think something in the gear box would be muffled, Thats sound is pretty crisp.

Last edited by FatAmy on Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
Addicted
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '64 V90
Joined: 27 Mar 2013
Posts: 558
Location: S.Salem, NY
Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:14 pm quote
FatAmy wrote:
Maybe its just me but I don't think noise is coming from inside the gearbox. I would think something in the gear box would be muffled, Thats sound is pretty crisp.
I agree. Very distinct.
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'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '64 V90
Joined: 27 Mar 2013
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Location: S.Salem, NY
Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:16 pm quote
will you tell us what it was when you find it ?
Member
1963 GL150
Joined: 01 Jun 2019
Posts: 13
Location: Portsmouth NH USA
Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:22 pm quote
Here is the Latest info.

I removed the wheel/hub again. I then removed the brake shoes to see if they were some how making the noise.
This did not stop the noise, so it is not the brakes.

I looked again at the axle shaft. It has no movement in any radial directions.
However there is movement in and out of about 1/8" (3.1 mm). I am guessing this is the issue.

I think there is no avoiding that the engine needs to be dropped and the cases opened in order to determine the cause. Most likely it is the Hub bearing if I am lucky.

I also want to do a shout out to Dave at ScooterMercato. He took the time as he always does when I call and did the best to help sluth the symptoms. Thanks Dave!

I will post up once it is apart and the actual cause is determined. Be patient as I have a busy week coming up at two race tracks and a 4 wheel project to work on too.
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GL, PK, PE200
Joined: 24 Apr 2012
Posts: 641
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:42 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
I had something that sounds similar from your description. It was the cruciform rubbing on a gear from memory. If you remove the selector box and are able to stop it making the noise by moving the selector rod by hand then that might be it.
Did you try Ginch suggestion? You've gone this far with one end of the gear box. Might as well check the other end. You're gonna have to remove the selector box any way if you have to split the cases. Keeping the cables connected if you remove it which makes putting it back easier.

Good luck!
Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 63 Li125, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3216
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:49 pm quote
rowdyc wrote:
Ginch wrote:
I had something that sounds similar from your description. It was the cruciform rubbing on a gear from memory. If you remove the selector box and are able to stop it making the noise by moving the selector rod by hand then that might be it.
Did you try Ginch suggestion? You've gone this far with one end of the gear box. Might as well check the other end. You're gonna have to remove the selector box any way if you have to split the cases. Keeping the cables connected if you remove it which makes putting it back easier.

Good luck!
Yep! Put a small tray underneath the selector box to catch some oil that will drip out, remove the two nuts, leave the cables as they are and then turn the hand grip to 4th gear and itíll pop the selector box out. You may need to rotate the wheel and pull a bit to get the last bit on the selector box. Then its just pulling it off the spindle and setting it aside.

Get the rear tire up off the ground if you try to start it. Thereís no way to keep it from jumping into gear. You can also pull the spark plug and have someone muscle the back tire around while you pull the spindle in and out listening for the click.
Member
1963 GL150
Joined: 01 Jun 2019
Posts: 13
Location: Portsmouth NH USA
Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:04 pm quote
Sounds good guys. I will do this tomorrow.

The click occurred while pushing it around in neutral and also when in gear (riding).

So if I continue to have the click what does that mean?

If the click goes away while moving the spindle, what does that mean?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6951
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:58 pm quote
Means that you've narrowed down the possibilities for a start. If that is the problem area, then spacing the box in (no gasket) or out, might make a difference... might also help you not to replace random stuff, especially if the problem is not visible when you open it up.
Molto Verboso
2005 PX150 In a Love-Hate Relationship with a 2-Stroke Vespa Since 2007
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Posts: 1805

Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:15 pm quote
You say the axle shaft moves axially 1/8Ē? Thatís a lot. The gears will travel with the shaft while the shift cross on the selector rod stays still in each gear.

Do this... does the noise change any at all when moving the shaft in or out?
Member
1963 GL150
Joined: 01 Jun 2019
Posts: 13
Location: Portsmouth NH USA
Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:39 am quote
This morning I pulled the gear selector and removed the cover(s) and spark plug so I could rotate the engine with the flywheel. I raised the rear wheel then slowly moved the selector rod through the gears while rotating the engine.

There was no binding or resistance other than the meshing of gears (did not use the clutch).

It also as perviously did not make the noise with the rear wheel unloaded.

What do you all think?
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4763
Location: So Cal
Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:44 am quote
Bent or worn drive shaft/axle. Re-shimming might help.
Addicted
GL, PK, PE200
Joined: 24 Apr 2012
Posts: 641
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:25 am quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Bent or worn drive shaft/axle. Re-shimming might help.
A loose wheel can bend or wear on the axle. Had the same problem. I replaced the axle and bearing for a piece of mine. Since it's the gear box that needs working on, the motor can be split still connected to the scooter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0bvOHRlf2s. The video shows removing the carb but not really needed for lower end work . You're only replacing the axle, bearing, cruciform, maybe a seal or kick start gear, and gasket.....(I said only..lol).

Since you're in contact with Mercato, you will need some specific tools from them to hold and remove the flywheel and clutch. It's not very hard with research and help from the forum. Post pics here and you'll get plenty of replies.
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'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '64 V90
Joined: 27 Mar 2013
Posts: 558
Location: S.Salem, NY
Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:38 am quote
Can you post a video of this 1/8" axle movement ?
Member
1963 GL150
Joined: 01 Jun 2019
Posts: 13
Location: Portsmouth NH USA
Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:39 pm quote
Here are a couple more video's of the axial play and the radial run out. However you can see the setup was FAR from stable. Even with the spark plug out there was a fair bit of resistance from the piston during it's travel. Additionally the end of the axle shaft was a bit rough for the mic to travel smoothly on it.

https://youtu.be/HAG_DCeWQqw
https://youtu.be/AUX3WZp8mGg

IMG_6213.jpg

IMG_6214.jpg



Last edited by Brewmaster on Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '64 V90
Joined: 27 Mar 2013
Posts: 558
Location: S.Salem, NY
Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:59 pm quote
The axle is located by the outer bearing which is held in position by the brake backing plate. With the hub on and the nut torqued it should not be able to move at all. You stated in your first post that there was no play with the hub on. I don't think this is your problem.
In your video you can see the click occurs at the same point in the wheel's rotation. Can you roll it forward till it clicks and back it up and roll it through the click again. And again ? Can you get down on the ground while someone does this and try to tell where the click is coming from ? Internal or external ? In neutral, the only thing rotating is the axle with the cruciform spinning between freely 1st and 2nd gears
Member
1963 GL150
Joined: 01 Jun 2019
Posts: 13
Location: Portsmouth NH USA
Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:07 pm quote
In your video you can see the click occurs at the same point in the wheel's rotation. Can you roll it forward till it clicks and back it up and roll it through the click again. And again ?
Yes, it appears to happen roughly in the same location. That is why I marked the tyre which you can see in the video. It is reproducible by going back and forth.

Can you get down on the ground while someone does this and try to tell where the click is coming from ? Internal or external ? In neutral, the only thing rotating is the axle with the cruciform spinning between freely 1st and 2nd gears
It is really hard to tell where it is coming from. It sounds like it is coming from the hub side slightly louder than the gear selector side. It does click when in gear also.

Thanks for helping diagnose this. The good thing is I am getting a better knowledge of the workings on the scooter.
Hooked
2001 LML 150
Joined: 16 Jul 2017
Posts: 303
Location: Melb, Aus
Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:12 pm quote
I'm no expert on these engines by any means, but isn't that an insane amount of axial play on that axle on the video? What's the acceptable tolerance here?

Could it be a gear shim dropped out and stuck in there somewhere causing the clicking sound and the play? There's a lot of clicking going on in there..
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 531
Location: california
Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:16 pm quote
No idea what the mystery sound is.
However - Nice choice of Mark Knopfler let it all go - in background.
Member
1963 GL150
Joined: 01 Jun 2019
Posts: 13
Location: Portsmouth NH USA
Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:48 am quote
Mystery Sound found and all is well.

So I pulled the engine. Gave the old girl a good clean up and Split the case and found the problem with the shaft axial play. The hub bearing did have a slight spot in it and the hub bearing retainer was not completely seated. I v-blocked the crank and found it to be perfectly straight (<0.001 out).

I inspected all the gears and they looked fine. I checked the gear tree stack clearance and it was 0.18 mm, spot on.

I cleaned up the piston & exhaust port of carbon.

I replaced all of the following before reassembling the engine:
new cruciform, new kick starter gear, rear hub bearing and seal. new rear hub bearing retainer (castle nut).

So I reinstalled the engine and cleaned up the rear hub/wheel. This was when I noticed that the hub was cracked. In fact it was critically cracked and I am lucky it did not fail on the road. This would have been VERY BAD! I added a link to a video where you can see the cracks and hear the sound as I flexed the wheel. Scary!

Thanks everyone for all your help. I was a great learning experience having the remove and open up the engine. I am actually glad I did and now feel much more confident about the workings of the engine.

I am including some pictures and the video link.

https://youtu.be/0u6ftpr3vW0
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Hooked
Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 499
Location: California
Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:08 am quote
Awesome job thanks for the update and photo's. It must be satisfying now having completed and corrected. Can you share about your process of reassembly I see you have the crank installed on the clutch case half, how did you do that and other side bearing installed in case? What did you do and tools?
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'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '64 V90
Joined: 27 Mar 2013
Posts: 558
Location: S.Salem, NY
Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:37 pm quote
bingo !!! !
Member
1963 GL150
Joined: 01 Jun 2019
Posts: 13
Location: Portsmouth NH USA
Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:13 pm quote
I followed this and it went together perfectly.
http://www.scootermercato.com/Garage/Tech-Tips/Engine-Assembly-Part-1-Large-Frame
Hooked
Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 499
Location: California
Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:46 pm quote
Brewmaster wrote:
Thanks Brewmaster the link shows engine assembly of motor with roller bearing on flywheel side of crankshaft is that what you have?
Member
1963 GL150
Joined: 01 Jun 2019
Posts: 13
Location: Portsmouth NH USA
Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:34 am quote
It was a roller bearinging. I heated up the case and bearing with a heat gun and it gently tapped right on when putting the cases back together.

The rear hub bearing went right in super easy. I put it into the freezer and then heated the case slowly up with the heat gun. When ready, the bearing slipped right in, no driver required.

I used the same method with the drive shaft into the rear hub bearing. I froze the drive shaft and heated the bearing up with the heat gun. That one required some light tapping with a small fiber hammer but three taps and it was in and seated too.

Over all everything went back together very smoothly. Just took my time and was gentle with everything.

For my 1st time taking apart a Vespa engine I have to say it was pretty straight forward. In fact it made me appreciate the old Vespa that much more. I am now thinking it would be fun to find a P model and build it up to be a fast tourer setup (fast is a relative term here).

Cheers, Brew!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x2 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 6996
Location: seattle/athens
Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:59 am quote
cracked hub, scary business
There, fixed right now.
Brewmaster wrote:
... I am now thinking it would be fun to find a P model and build it up to be a fast tourer setup (fast is a relative term here).

Cheers, Brew!
I think this is a great plan for you. You already have the knack. But if an irresistible smallframe happens to fall on you, we'll really see what you're made of.
Member
1963 GL150
Joined: 01 Jun 2019
Posts: 13
Location: Portsmouth NH USA
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:52 am quote
I am open to suggestions and ideas! Being a Vespa newbie and just dipping my toe. I don't want to bite off more than I can handle. That said I do love the look of the small frames, just have NO EXPERIENCE with them.
Hooked
Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 499
Location: California
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:58 am quote
Brewmaster wrote:
It was a roller bearinging. I heated up the case and bearing with a heat gun and it gently tapped right on when putting the cases back together.

The rear hub bearing went right in super easy. I put it into the freezer and then heated the case slowly up with the heat gun. When ready, the bearing slipped right in, no driver required.

I used the same method with the drive shaft into the rear hub bearing. I froze the drive shaft and heated the bearing up with the heat gun. That one required some light tapping with a small fiber hammer but three taps and it was in and seated too.

Over all everything went back together very smoothly. Just took my time and was gentle with everything.

For my 1st time taking apart a Vespa engine I have to say it was pretty straight forward. In fact it made me appreciate the old Vespa that much more. I am now thinking it would be fun to find a P model and build it up to be a fast tourer setup (fast is a relative term here).

Cheers, Brew!
Meant needle bearing
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x2 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 6996
Location: seattle/athens
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:25 am quote
Brewmaster wrote:
I am open to suggestions and ideas! Being a Vespa newbie and just dipping my toe. I don't want to bite off more than I can handle. That said I do love the look of the small frames, just have NO EXPERIENCE with them.
Have a look here and pick one out, They are much the same but obviously more compact. They were the last scooter done by Corradino D'Ascanio, designer all the first successful Vespas. Smallframe page

Nothing to fear unless you have huge hands. Pretty much the same motor w/ a few changes. It has a more 'normal' carb but it's inconveniently inside the frame. The clutch is on the christmas tree rather than the crank to make it more compact. The shift mechanism is inside the case for the same reason. They also tipped the cylinder up for some reason.
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