Clutch Question
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Member
'64 SS180 '64 Allstate
Joined: 15 Jul 2018
Posts: 6
Location: San Francisco
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:36 am quote
Hi all, long time lurker first time poster. Thank you very much for all the knowledge, you've all helped me out so much over the past few years of owning Vespas!

On my Allstate, i've been having an odd problem where everything is fine for a few weeks and I get in plenty of miles of worry free riding. Then for some reason it gradually seems the plates are not separating enough and with the clutch lever fully pulled in at a light it will start to want to creep forward. Within a few miles it will do the dreaded lurch/stall when put into first gear from neutral. Yesterday I got stranded at the beach (could have been worse), I adjusted the cable a few times to get it just backed out from not being able to kick start. I even changed to a new inner cable no luck at all. The violent lurch forward and stall every time.


This is the second time it's done this. It had been working no worries but I noticed over the course of a few miles it started getting really grabby until the lurch. I changed out the oil (standard Motul gearbox bottle) and cleaned off the clutch plates thinking maybe they had become sticky somehow. That did the trick for a few weeks and it ran great, but yesterday left me stranded. It's a 2port case with pinasco 177 and sip cosa style clutch. I'm not currently using a spacer behind clutch because the cosa spacer seemed to imake it lurch worse, only without the spacer did I get it working (seemingly) properly again.

Any ideas? Big thanks!
Addicted
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 950
Location: Racing Capital of the World
Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:29 pm quote
pull the clutch and look at the turrets of the clutch. check to see if the clutch plate tabs have ate into the turrets. The other problem with these clutches are the back plate where it indexes into the clutch itself. The backplate will wear enough to give you near the same problems.
Member
'64 SS180 '64 Allstate
Joined: 15 Jul 2018
Posts: 6
Location: San Francisco
Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:42 pm quote
thanks! it's relatively new so hopefully it's not worn out, but I'll pull it and check tomorrow.
Addicted
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 950
Location: Racing Capital of the World
Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:53 pm quote
Petes wrote:
thanks! it's relatively new so hopefully it's not worn out, but I'll pull it and check tomorrow.
if it's new, then probably something else.
Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 63 Li125, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3216
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:13 pm quote
Ive never heard of a clutch working right without the spacer there. If its not there it seems like youíd be putting pressure on your seal or bearing (Iíve never worked on an Allstate).

Are your cable outers seated/ have the top hats to keep them in their guides? If the outers slip they would remove any tension from the inners.

Since you have a Cosa clutch, did you dremel out the oil channel on the inside of the clutch cover? It will rub on the oil channel at the top of the cover. They also sell a spacer for that in case you donít want to dremel.
Member
'64 SS180 '64 Allstate
Joined: 15 Jul 2018
Posts: 6
Location: San Francisco
Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:29 pm quote
There seems to be a little lip on the crank (a non stock mazzy) that would keep the clutch from resting against the seal. The clutch is not rubbing the cover, I swapped the original clutch cover for the bigger p200. =)
Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 63 Li125, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3216
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:36 pm quote
Try this- lift the brass plunger half way out of the clutch cover. Wiggle it side to side. Is there excessive slop? Old clutch covers wear and that slop can cause the brass plunger to hang and then release all of the tension at once causing lurching.
Member
'64 SS180 '64 Allstate
Joined: 15 Jul 2018
Posts: 6
Location: San Francisco
Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:43 pm quote
Brilliant, I'll try that and check over the lever and push rod. All I can think is that somehow the pushrod isn't pushing it far enough for it to separate cleanly. I'll double/triple check the outer cable also.
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1527
Location: Veria, Greece
Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:52 pm quote
You need a spacer behind the clutch. There are thinner washers for your type of engine. Have you ever disassembled the clutch?? Metal plates have a specific order that go in. Second plate is different, so as to separate the others when clutch is pulled in. It has a small notch on the inside teeth to identify it...
Member
'64 SS180 '64 Allstate
Joined: 15 Jul 2018
Posts: 6
Location: San Francisco
Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:01 pm quote
SaFiS wrote:
You need a spacer behind the clutch. There are thinner washers for your type of engine. Have you ever disassembled the clutch?? Metal plates have a specific order that go in. Second plate is different, so as to separate the others when clutch is pulled in. It has a small notch on the inside teeth to identify it...
This may also be the culprit, I had it disassembled to soak the plates. I tried to keep them in order but have been known to be largely less than genius in the past,

Thanks everyone for your help, I'll be spending the day tomorrow sorting it out, and will give an update for sure!
Member
V50 P150 PX200
Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 27
Location: New Zealand
Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:41 pm quote
There is a known issue with some after market cosa clutch's where the turret depths are not deep enough or the clutch plates used are too thick.

For me this resulted in the clutch working when the engine was cold but as the plates expanded when the engine got warm it would drag.

The turrets should be a minimum of 22mm.

Pull the clutch measure the turrets and using a clutch compression tool (A nut and bolt and some big penny washers) see how little separation you have between the plates.

Cheers

MattO
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
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Location: Millbin, Ostrayleea, mate
Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:59 am quote
Cable is loose... if you response is that it's already super tight, then it needs to be far tighter than you think
Member
'64 SS180 '64 Allstate
Joined: 15 Jul 2018
Posts: 6
Location: San Francisco
Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:57 pm quote
I ran a new clutch inner and double checked that everything was good with the outer, it fits in the top hat, which fits in the hole in side of headset. not too much extra outer at the clutch end, doesn't seem like enough to catch anything at least.

mjrally- the plunger seemed fine, smooth action and return.

SaFis- put the Cosa 2 spacer back in after checking everything, it still lurched. It should be the thinner Cosa 2 correct? Not a thicker one for a vnb engine? The notched plate was on third To be sure, it should be stacked... 1-metal plate 2-cork 3-notched metal 4-cork etc. I don't see anything that the notch in the metal plate should interact with? Should there be anything it locks to?

grimmripper- I didn't measure, but there was some plates that had space, and others were still against each other (that may have been due to gravity, how I was holding it?). It started acting up after many miles, I'd done a long trip for pizza and a quite a few runs across town before it had a problem, so it shouldn't be due to heating up.

SubE- I get the fourth hand tight to the point where it juuuust spins freely with the kick start with the adjuster out. Then I go a few turns in with adjuster until the kickstart catches completely, and then go one or two more for fun to make sure.


After taking the clutch apart the corks seemed maybe a little dry, I'm soaking them again to cover myself (I also soaked before first install). After pulling it, changing clutch cable, and re-install there was a little oil in clutch cover so I'm guessing it is making it to the clutch. Maybe not enough somehow though? I had recently changed the oil and topped it off so I don't think it would be from lack of oil..


Thanks again though everyone for your suggestions. I can only imagine it's going to turn out to be something dumb like the screw in the lever is too tight or something, hahaha
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