VIN Help!
Post Reply    Forum -> Not-So-Modern 12Next
Author Message
Member
Not sure
Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 16
Location: Massachusetts
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:01 pm quote
I am trying to identify my Vespa. I bought this from someone who said they imported in from Germany. There was a plate that had the VIN.
The VIN says its a VBC Super 150. However, the Engine VIN says the bike is a VLA 150 GL.

I can't find the frame VIN underneath the frame cowl.
Thoughts?

IMG_20190613_201244.jpg

Member
Not sure
Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 16
Location: Massachusetts
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:03 pm quote
Additional picture
Where on here should the VIN be?

IMG_20190613_201300.jpg

Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1201
Location: Staten Island, NY
Member
Not sure
Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 16
Location: Massachusetts
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:15 pm quote
VIN Location
I think this picture tells me where to find it. My left side cowl is only removable after I unscrew 4 nuts. The engine VIN matched where I thought it should be based on this picture.

Snip20190613_1.png

Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1328
Location: Florence, OR
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:34 pm quote
Hey Aerona - welcome to MV!

Here is a pic of mine. It's a 1962 though. Hmmm. Looks different than yours. Maybe under layers of paint?

20190602_193111.jpg
1962 Allstate Cruisaire

Member
Not sure
Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 16
Location: Massachusetts
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:37 pm quote
Help
Scott,
That is certainly helpful. Yes, it has been repainted. I will have to remove some paint perhaps.

I guess I'm just trying to solve the issue before I start restoring it. I need to figure out what I've got my hands on.

Aaron
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1201
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:47 pm quote
Re: Help
aerona87 wrote:
Scott,
That is certainly helpful. Yes, it has been repainted. I will have to remove some paint perhaps.

I guess I'm just trying to solve the issue before I start restoring it. I need to figure out what I've got my hands on.

Aaron
Again I'm not sure cause I've never seen an old one like that in person but if they are to be the same, comparing the images, looks like your frame was cut and shaped with an upward curve more like the px frame in that area. If you compare the cross indent to the bottom of panel you will notice this because the side panel on yours doesn't go as far down as qa's and his is a straight line, not upward curve. So looks like your frame number was chopped off, either due to rust or due to something potentially nefarious. It does look from some of your photos that beneath the paint could be some rust bubbles or pitting, which could be why they chopped it below.

But someone with more experience here should confirm.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4905
Location: So Cal
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:54 pm quote
Welcome aerona.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but someone snipped a bunch of metal off the bottom of the frame including the part where the vin is stamped.

It looks like there’s about six layers of paint and a bucket of bondo on there. What’s underneath is anyone’s guess.

If you post a few pictures of the whole bike, I’m sure the folks on here will be able to better identify it.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1328
Location: Florence, OR
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:57 pm quote
EDIT: I'm with SoCalGuy. It looks like the frame has been trimmed. Sorry man - what a bummer.

I forgot to mention. Maybe check on the engine side, on the body next to the bottom edge behind the engine. Like on a 70's P. Who knows....

Framenumber.JPG
Maybe here? Who knows...



Last edited by qascooter on Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1201
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:58 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Welcome aerona.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but someone snipped a bunch of metal off the bottom of the frame including the part where the vin is stamped.

It looks like there’s about six layers of paint and a bucket of bondo on there. What’s underneath is anyone’s guess.

If you post a few pictures of the whole bike, I’m sure the folks on here will be able to better identify it.
That serial plate also looks suspiciously clean and new compared to the bubbling and pitting suggested below the layers of paint in the first image.
Addicted
1974VLB 1979VSX 1974V9A
Joined: 12 Sep 2014
Posts: 662

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:04 pm quote
Let’s see the rest of this scooter.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7121
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:53 pm quote
A Super should have the number on the opposite side, near the rear cowl pin.

Just noticed the plate says "gesamtgewicht" (total weight) - 240kg!!! Something odd going on there, maybe the plate was added to make it look legit? Actual total weight should be less than 100kg.
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1645
Location: Veria, Greece
Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:13 pm quote
Bajaj CDI and 12 volt regulator. Probably Indian / Pakistani restoration. Plate is probably generic. German type plates where rectangular from 55 - 61 and oval from 62 - 67. “Vespa GmbH Augsburg” was imprinted on all of them...
Member
Not sure
Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 16
Location: Massachusetts
Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:26 pm quote
Well, I guess it's all troubling to say the least. Here is a picture of the whole thing. The engine is a VLA.
What should I sell it as? How much? Engine still has compression and there is spark. Gas tank needs cleaned out for it to be a runner.

IMG_20190614_002220.jpg

Addicted
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 501
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:38 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
A Super should have the number on the opposite side, near the rear cowl pin.

Just noticed the plate says "gesamtgewicht" (total weight) - 240kg!!! Something odd going on there, maybe the plate was added to make it look legit? Actual total weight should be less than 100kg.
It’s total gross weight - so plus passengers and fuel etc...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_vehicle_weight_rating
Addicted
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 501
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:43 pm quote
Isn’t that a German VIN? Maybe a motor swap in the past. Doesn’t look sea bodge imo.

4834F499-EF40-446F-A150-CE6E8B0E4136.jpeg

Addicted
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 501
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:47 pm quote
Remember Germans like to mod.
Addicted
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 501
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:54 pm quote
My vbb doesn’t have a number stamped into the frame. Has a rounded rectangle of aluminum riveted on the rhs with 5 numbers. A lot depends on where they were made. I think my frame number style makes mine a Douglas Sportique. So actually imported from the UK. There was local production of Vespas in New Zealand - Airco. The import laws meant they had to make a certain % and assemble in NZ. Seats, racks, fairings...
Member
Not sure
Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 16
Location: Massachusetts
Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:45 am quote
pheasant plucker wrote:
My vbb doesn’t have a number stamped into the frame. Has a rounded rectangle of aluminum riveted on the rhs with 5 numbers. A lot depends on where they were made. I think my frame number style makes mine a Douglas Sportique. So actually imported from the UK. There was local production of Vespas in New Zealand - Airco. The import laws meant they had to make a certain % and assemble in NZ. Seats, racks, fairings...
Good to know. Maybe it's not as bad as I thought.
Member
Not sure
Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 16
Location: Massachusetts
Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:56 am quote
pheasant plucker wrote:
Isn’t that a German VIN? Maybe a motor swap in the past. Doesn’t look sea bodge imo.
One question though, it's running on 10inch wheels. Super's had 8inch wheels. The VLA 150GL had 10 inch wheels. Is it possible to throw 10inch wheels on a Super frame?
Member
Not sure
Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 16
Location: Massachusetts
Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:59 am quote
SaFiS wrote:
Bajaj CDI and 12 volt regulator. Probably Indian / Pakistani restoration. Plate is probably generic. German type plates where rectangular from 55 - 61 and oval from 62 - 67. “Vespa GmbH Augsburg” was imprinted on all of them...
Thanks for the info. That is oddly specific knowledge that you have. Is there a reference for that?

I'm trying to figure out how legit this is. Is it worth restoring in your opinion? I'm up for a project.
Member
Not sure
Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 16
Location: Massachusetts
Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:01 am quote
SaFiS wrote:
Bajaj CDI and 12 volt regulator. Probably Indian / Pakistani restoration. Plate is probably generic. German type plates where rectangular from 55 - 61 and oval from 62 - 67. “Vespa GmbH Augsburg” was imprinted on all of them...
The 12volt system was put on by the guy who I bought it from.
I don't see Vespa GmbH Augsburg printed on my Vespa anywhere. Is that good news?
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1201
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:17 am quote
Bought off Craigslist? Think I've seen this ad before.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7409
Location: seattle/athens
Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:47 am quote
Looks like you got a bag of tricks there aerona87, but it looks pretty solid. Maybe take a look here for one possible solution: How to Guide- Apply for a Vermont plate

Numbers stamped into the frame and/or aluminum number plate???

As mentioned it's probably where it was made but I think also where it was sold. I checked 2 bikes with both and only the plate includes the max total weight limit which seems to be required in Germany and likely elsewhere. The white PX125 shows a limit of 250Kg and it's in English, numbers match the frame. My tuff little red German market '91 PK ups the ante w/ 290Kg , displayed in German on the plate which also matches the frame stamp and bonus decal.

240/250Kg for a largeframe but 290Kg on a smallframe? What's up with that?

So back on topic, did any bikes come with *only* the aluminum plate?

plate1.jpg

vin1.jpg

plate2.jpg

vin2.jpg

decal.jpg

Member
Not sure
Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 16
Location: Massachusetts
Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:13 am quote
V oodoo wrote:
Looks like you got a bag of tricks there aerona87, but it looks pretty solid. Maybe take a look here for one possible solution: How to Guide- Apply for a Vermont plate

Numbers stamped into the frame and/or aluminum number plate???

As mentioned it's probably where it was made but I think also where it was sold. I checked 2 bikes with both and only the plate includes the max total weight limit which seems to be required in Germany and likely elsewhere. The white PX125 shows a limit of 250Kg and it's in English, numbers match the frame. My tuff little red German market '91 PK ups the ante w/ 290Kg , displayed in German on the plate which also matches the frame stamp and bonus decal.

240/250Kg for a largeframe but 290Kg on a smallframe? What's up with that?

So back on topic, did any bikes come with *only* the aluminum plate?
Is it worth the effort to restore? The engine is in good condition. It came with a title based on the Aluminum Plate.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4905
Location: So Cal
Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:24 am quote
aerona87 wrote:
Is it worth the effort to restore? The engine is in good condition. It came with a title based on the Aluminum Plate.
Tough question. How much time and/or money are you willing to put into it?
Member
Not sure
Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 16
Location: Massachusetts
Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:53 am quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
aerona87 wrote:
Is it worth the effort to restore? The engine is in good condition. It came with a title based on the Aluminum Plate.
Tough question. How much time and/or money are you willing to put into it?
Well, I'm more than okay making a project out of it. I just want to make sure its legit. The guy before me put a few hundred miles on it. Just trying to make sure its not a Viet-bodge.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1856

Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:14 am quote
aerona87 wrote:
V oodoo wrote:
Looks like you got a bag of tricks there aerona87, but it looks pretty solid. Maybe take a look here for one possible solution: How to Guide- Apply for a Vermont plate

Numbers stamped into the frame and/or aluminum number plate???

As mentioned it's probably where it was made but I think also where it was sold. I checked 2 bikes with both and only the plate includes the max total weight limit which seems to be required in Germany and likely elsewhere. The white PX125 shows a limit of 250Kg and it's in English, numbers match the frame. My tuff little red German market '91 PK ups the ante w/ 290Kg , displayed in German on the plate which also matches the frame stamp and bonus decal.

240/250Kg for a largeframe but 290Kg on a smallframe? What's up with that?

So back on topic, did any bikes come with *only* the aluminum plate?
Is it worth the effort to restore? The engine is in good condition. It came with a title based on the Aluminum Plate.
It depends upon what you're definition of "restore" is. Some people think that a restore is installing new whitewall tires and rattle can painting over the existing rusty paint. If you wanted to restore by definition...you would need to do something about all the rust pitting that is going on. Also the front fender looks to be cut down as well, so you'll need a new one of those. The left cowl has some sort of "infinity" glovebox (there's no bottom to it), so you're have to fix that (maybe it was cut out to fit that [redacted] pipe?) You should also weld back the missing material where the VIN is usually located.

Sometimes restoring isn't worth it, and it's better to just get the engine in tip top shape, and enjoy riding it around for what it is.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4905
Location: So Cal
Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:21 am quote
If by “legit” you mean “is it a Vespa?”, yes I’d say that’s a fair statement... if you mean “is it original,” no not even close.

Hard to tell from just three pics, but my guess is it spent some time in Asia (legshield glovebox). The pitting under the thick paint is a sign of some serious rust issues. It’s never a good sign when you see painted over bolts.

Might be worth the effort to get it running. Be careful before you get on it and start riding though. The only way to really tell what you have is to strip it all down.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7409
Location: seattle/athens
Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:08 am quote
I'd probably go forward based on the one pic, but more pics would let us see if there are any problem areas that could kill any encouragement. You do have some rust going on, but hard to tell how deep. Look inside the tunnel with one of those little cameras or a penlite & small mirror. Get pics if you can.



If you have legit paperwork that matches the numbers and there's no serious cancer or severe bodgery, why not?
Member
Not sure
Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 16
Location: Massachusetts
Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:01 am quote
V oodoo wrote:
I'd probably go forward based on the one pic, but more pics would let us see if there are any problem areas that could kill any encouragement. You do have some rust going on, but hard to tell how deep. Look inside the tunnel with one of those little cameras or a penlite & small mirror. Get pics if you can.



If you have legit paperwork that matches the numbers and there's no serious cancer or severe bodgery, why not?
Voodoo, thats the sanity check I need from you guys. I appreciate it.
Body work is certainly an issue. I have looked at places that do acid dipping or media blasting.
I plan on doing the engine work myself.

00000IMG_00000_BURST20190614123246568_COVER.jpg
In the tunnel

00100dPORTRAIT_00100_BURST20190614122822224_COVER.jpg
Underneath

00100dPORTRAIT_00100_BURST20190614122933204_COVER.jpg
In the glovebox

IMG_20190614_122617.jpg
Underneath gas tank

IMG_20190614_122732.jpg
Under front mud guard

IMG_20190614_122613.jpg
Rear holes

Member
Not sure
Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 16
Location: Massachusetts
Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:04 am quote
V oodoo wrote:
I'd probably go forward based on the one pic, but more pics would let us see if there are any problem areas that could kill any encouragement. You do have some rust going on, but hard to tell how deep. Look inside the tunnel with one of those little cameras or a penlite & small mirror. Get pics if you can.



If you have legit paperwork that matches the numbers and there's no serious cancer or severe bodgery, why not?
A few more pictures. They were too big and had to resize.

2.jpg

3.png

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7409
Location: seattle/athens
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:06 pm quote
This one isn't too encouraging. Can you pick at that scab so we can see what's underneath?
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1856

Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:19 pm quote
Since i'm a fan of the P series, i can appreciate the plastic rear P mud flap.
Addicted
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 501
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:20 pm quote
[quote="aerona87"]
V oodoo wrote:
Is it worth the effort to restore? The engine is in good condition. It came with a title based on the Aluminum Plate.
The 'issue' is a culture clash. Three of them. German, American - and SEA got dragged in to the discussion as well. This bike has been modified - you know this. Likely in Germany - that's what they do. Unlikely in SEA (IMO) - as the modifications done there are bodgey and fairly typical/easy to spot. But now the bike is in the States and the culture there tends to favour US bikes restored to original specs.

IMO the hardest part to achieve is done - it has a title (despite a weird frame number). What do you want from the bike? A solid classic ride? A perfect original spec super? If the later is your goal then walk away.

How clean do you want the frame? Like panel and paint tidy? Cause that is where the biggest cost/time will be. Can't see any rust bad enough to need welding - need to check under the floor, but looks like the paint is coming away from superficial rust (rather than proper rot).

Do you like the colour?

If so... clean it, then Penetrol the crap out of it (inside and out). Done.

If not... then acid dip it and figure how to panel and paint from there. Time and $$$.

From what I'm seeing this bike looks pretty sweet. Yes 10" on a super is a done thing. Many would argue a good thing for stability and looks better (but others counter argue 8" are original, and many like the look and agility).

I think the odds are you did ok.
Addicted
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 501
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:28 pm quote
One last thing.. that little circular stamp on the frame. I've heard that it isn't seen on SEA bikes/bodges (Vietnamese anyway). I don't know how true that is... but FWIW.

img_20190613_201300_12777.jpg

Hooked
P125x (P200 Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 167
Location: Alexandria, VA
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:30 pm quote
[quote="pheasant plucker"]
aerona87 wrote:
V oodoo wrote:
Is it worth the effort to restore? The engine is in good condition. It came with a title based on the Aluminum Plate.
The 'issue' is a culture clash. Three of them. German, American - and SEA got dragged in to the discussion as well. This bike has been modified - you know this. Likely in Germany - that's what they do. Unlikely in SEA (IMO) - as the modifications done there are bodgey and fairly typical/easy to spot. But now the bike is in the States and the culture there tends to favour US bikes restored to original specs.

IMO the hardest part to achieve is done - it has a title (despite a weird frame number). What do you want from the bike? A solid classic ride? A perfect original spec super? If the later is your goal then walk away.

How clean do you want the frame? Like panel and paint tidy? Cause that is where the biggest cost/time will be. Can't see any rust bad enough to need welding - need to check under the floor, but looks like the paint is coming away from superficial rust (rather than proper rot).

Do you like the colour?

If so... clean it, then Penetrol the crap out of it (inside and out). Done.

If not... then acid dip it and figure how to panel and paint from there. Time and $$$.

From what I'm seeing this bike looks pretty sweet. Yes 10" on a super is a done thing. Many would argue a good thing for stability and looks better (but others counter argue 8" are original, and many like the look and agility).

I think the odds are you did ok.
I agree. It really depends on what you want out of it. You appear not to be afraid of some work, so it really depends on your expectations.

My 81 P125X is a certified 1 owner, but rusty. It looks about the same as yours overall, and my plan is to make it structurally sound, mechanically strong, and look nice. I'm not worried about a full restoration, but it will get fully striped, repaired and repainted. First Scooter, not my first project.
Member
Not sure
Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 16
Location: Massachusetts
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:44 pm quote
V oodoo wrote:
This one isn't too encouraging. Can you pick at that scab so we can see what's underneath?
I tried attacking it but it won't budge. I'm sure there is a bit of filler but it's not coming lose. Here's another picture of the area underneath the Vespa. It's a little up close.

IMG_20190614_171300.jpg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7409
Location: seattle/athens
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:54 pm quote
Time to get out the coarse sandpaper and a block. Sooner or later it's going to have to be addressed. Rusty hole or poorly patched dent?
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4905
Location: So Cal
Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:33 pm quote
Quote:
What do you want from the bike?
That’s really the question. If you’re just planning to putt up and down the street occasionally, it might be a fun project. If you’re looking for daily transportation or hoping to put serious mileage on it, go on tours and trips, etc. I’d think twice.

The glove box, the mismatched frame & engine, the chopped off vin, the inch thick cracking bondo/paint, the ripples, and rust pits all scream sketchy. I see $$$ and headaches downstream, but if you’re willing to take it on, go for it! There are a lot worse ways to spend your time.
Team Scooter Trash for Petfinder Foundation   vespa scooterwest scooter west Motorsport Scooters   Yelcome Leather Top Cases and Roll Bags for Piaggio Vespa PX LX LXV GTS GTV
Post Reply    Forum -> Not-So-Modern 12Next
[ Time: 0.1912s ][ Queries: 26 (0.0496s) ][ Debug on ]