Chinese Harleys???
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Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:38 pm quote
That's a nice looking bike. I would like to see smaller bikes like this on the American market.
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Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:00 pm quote
mpfrank wrote:
That's a nice looking bike. I would like to see smaller bikes like this on the American market.
Harley doesn't seem to be able to give the Street 500 or 750 away in the States. Or at least I see none on the road anywhere I ride or travel.
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Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:37 pm quote
It'll be one of those chinese honda clones with a plastic faux second cylinder attached and a speaker to play V-twin sounds.

QJ is a State owned company, and they own Binelli, Keeway, and CPI among others. They do a lot of manufacturing for Yamaha for the Chinese market. Working for them is considered a very desirable job in China, compared to some of the other manufacturers.

It is somewhat ironic that the company Harley decides to get in bed with is owned by the Chinese government.
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Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:04 pm quote
Dooglas wrote:
mpfrank wrote:
That's a nice looking bike. I would like to see smaller bikes like this on the American market.
Harley doesn't seem to be able to give the Street 500 or 750 away in the States. Or at least I see none on the road anywhere I ride or travel.
For what i think, HD is from 883 upwards...now i have a handicap on my left hand and i could not drive it but know that this brand has many admirers in Italy (me too) also for the long tradition and much for its history.
Produce it out of U.S.A. it would deprive it, very much, of substance which is also given by the place of construction; a bit like if Vespa and Moto Guzzi did the same thing.
A different example is Benelli, which is Chinese-owned (QJIAN JIANG group,is it the same factory for HD?), uses components produced in China and Italy but the bikes are built in Italy: https://unitedkingdom.benelli.com/company
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Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:13 pm quote
Motovista wrote:
It'll be one of those chinese honda clones with a plastic faux second cylinder attached and a speaker to play V-twin sounds.

QJ is a State owned company, and they own Binelli, Keeway, and CPI among others. They do a lot of manufacturing for Yamaha for the Chinese market. Working for them is considered a very desirable job in China, compared to some of the other manufacturers.

It is somewhat ironic that the company Harley decides to get in bed with is owned by the Chinese government.
All the companies that produce in China are at least 51% owned by the chinese government ... they do it to have the "property" but very much in contradiction with Marx's famous phrase that says "property is theft" ... sorry for political digression.
What you want to do ... the world has changed, in all, and the alternative to unemployment is also the "delocalization" of both the brand and the production; it's sad but it's so ...

Last edited by Attila on Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:17 pm quote
Attila wrote:
For what i think, HD is from 883 upwards...
KR750, XR750?
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Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:22 pm quote
Motovista wrote:
Attila wrote:
For what i think, HD is from 883 upwards...
KR750, XR750?
Those are exceptions, you have to consider that out of the U.S.A. the market is different from country to country; selling a modern HD 750 in Italy also means 2000 Ä of difference from an 883 ...
Also consider that VAT here is 22%, this affects a lot.
Also consider that here who can afford to spend over Ä 9000 on a motorcycle is a social class of middle class, and there aren't that many; outside of Italy there is an idyllic vision of my country that suffers a lot at the economic level, the taxes are high. A company can pay tax up to 70% of its profits (I know, I'm one of them). Who buys HD in Italy is more than a fan of the brand, is almost an adept and i don't exaggerate ...
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Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:03 pm quote
Attila wrote:
Motovista wrote:
Attila wrote:
For what i think, HD is from 883 upwards...
KR750, XR750?
Those are exceptions, you have to consider that out of the U.S.A. the market is different from country to country; selling a modern HD 750 in Italy also means 2000 Ä of difference from an 883 ...
Also consider that VAT here is 22%, this affects a lot.
Also consider that here who can afford to spend over Ä 9000 on a motorcycle is a social class of middle class, and there aren't that many; outside of Italy there is an idyllic vision of my country that suffers a lot at the economic level, the taxes are high. A company can pay tax up to 70% of its profits (I know, I'm one of them). Who buys HD in Italy is more than a fan of the brand, is almost an adept and i don't exaggerate ...
Quite the same here what it comes to vehicles.

Strategically this is a good business move for HD, time will tell how it goes.

I think that the challenge of HD is quite similar as with for example Moto Guzzi. They have long heritage and a certain "image". A big, expensive HD is still a realistic alternative in it's own segment, as this is the area it has been playing around for decades, always riding with a bit of nostalgy and US tradition. The same with Moto Guzzi, just the Italian tradition.

Now, a small bike from Moto Guzzi, or HD... it's a different story. This is a very growded segment, plenty of Japanese, Chinese, Indian manufacturers already there, many together with European brands. A small HD - not respected by the big HD riders, not a known hot brand among smaller bikes..... they enter a tough game.

Electric HD is a different story. The market hasn't shaped up yet, so there's more freedom to play... looking from here, a big, expensive electric HD is not an attractive move, but can't say if that works better at the home market.
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Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:59 pm quote
Looks like it will be 338 cc for the Asian market next year.
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Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:05 am quote
From my experience a motorcycle produced in China is a vastly different animal than a Chinese scooter. I owned a 50cc Bashan bike with a four speed semi automatic transmission that was a copy of the original 50cc Cub engine. I had zero problems with it. When I rode it I never worried about how hard I was riding it unlike my scooters. It didn't burn a drop of oil, got 135 mpg and just ran every day without fiddling. Adjusting the valves was a five minute affair and the slide needle carburetor never gave me an ounce of trouble. Going with QJ is a brilliant alliance. Ask Bill Dog how his Benelli is running.
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Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:24 am quote
This Chinese made frowning needs to stop.

You can buy crap stuff from any country.

They are the hardest working diligent people Iíve ever met ever.

If specifications are low thatís down to the brand that employed them to build it.

My bikes Chinese totally fantastic and built by the same factory that builds for well known brands.

Itís disrespectful and annoying.

Good luck to Harley I say, if it helps keep them afloat, and cheaper bikes to the masses thatís only a good thing.
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Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:30 am quote
I know ... for 12 years i have a Castelgarden 14 hp mower (built in Italy) with an engine built in China but a perfect copy of the same Honda engine, the parts (i recently replaced the carburetor) are the same (or almost all) and that's great!
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Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:23 pm quote
I'm having a hard time picturing a Hog T-shirt in Chinese.
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Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:33 pm quote
Allens wrote:
I'm having a hard time picturing a Hog T-shirt in Chinese.
Here you go -

year-of-the-pig-men-s-t-shirt.jpg

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Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:33 pm quote
I think they lost the plot when they thought boasting about having an Italian designer for their engine would help them sell the American motorcycle dream.
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:25 am quote
It is the story of my life, there is a sort of parallelism given that as i work i cultivate and sell kiwi that is not a typical italian product but is originally from China.
At the end of it all there is now something chinese all over the world.
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:47 am quote
Attila wrote:
It is the story of my life, there is a sort of parallelism given that as i work i cultivate and sell kiwi that is not a typical italian product but is originally from China.
So are noodles, even though pasta seems as Italian as Vespas.
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:02 am quote
Dooglas wrote:
Attila wrote:
It is the story of my life, there is a sort of parallelism given that as i work i cultivate and sell kiwi that is not a typical italian product but is originally from China.
So are noodles, even though pasta seems as Italian as Vespas.
As a bonus kids get to play Marco Polo. Italians may have gotten pasta from China but I have to say they did a damn good job in taking a great thing and running with it. Pizza though....

Wait a second, never mind

https://eportfolios.macaulay.cuny.edu/rosenberg14/pizza-culture-3/

At least in Quebec they can definitely lay claim to poutine.

As far as where something is made I could care less. YES a LOT of real crap is made in China but they are also very capable of putting out some great products. It's all about QC and the materials used to make a product. Workers rights are still an issue there and need to be improved. The problem is as consumers we don't want to pay more.
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:17 am quote
Harbinger wrote:
Dooglas wrote:
Attila wrote:
It is the story of my life, there is a sort of parallelism given that as i work i cultivate and sell kiwi that is not a typical italian product but is originally from China.
So are noodles, even though pasta seems as Italian as Vespas.
As a bonus kids get to play Marco Polo. Italians may have gotten pasta from China but I have to say they did a damn good job in taking a great thing and running with it. Pizza though....

Wait a second, never mind

https://eportfolios.macaulay.cuny.edu/rosenberg14/pizza-culture-3/

At least in Quebec they can definitely lay claim to poutine.

As far as where something is made I could care less. YES a LOT of real crap is made in China but they are also very capable of putting out some great products. It's all about QC and the materials used to make a product. Workers rights are still an issue there and need to be improved. The problem is as consumers we don't want to pay more.
Yeh this is my point.

Say Yamaha use a Chinese company they will have set a specification that the Chinese company complies to.
But if a less discerning company uses even the same Chinese company and sets a lower specification you canít blame the Chinese can you.

This is the biggest problem with sweeping statements about Chinese products. A slip of the tongue may be on your part in this instance but this is definitely the general spoken word on the subject.
Itís only Chinese companies who produce their own products in house that are crap, you can really label like this. But this can be said for any country, thereís just more companies in China due to its huge population.
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:21 am quote
Ahhhhh typo on the above.

Itís only crap Chinese companies who produce their own crap you can say this about.

Good Chinese companies who produce their own products wonít produce crap.

Good Chinese companies who produce crap due to another crap company asking them too, is not the fault of the Chinese, itís the fault of the company using them.

Phew
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:50 am quote
Dooglas wrote:
Attila wrote:
It is the story of my life, there is a sort of parallelism given that as i work i cultivate and sell kiwi that is not a typical italian product but is originally from China.
So are noodles, even though pasta seems as Italian as Vespas.
My mother still makes the handmade pasta and I'm capable too ... I also use the eggs of my chickens. Cooking takes passion.
...nothing to do with that supermarket stuff...
My scooter is made in Thailand ...
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:02 am quote
northernerbill wrote:
Ahhhhh typo on the above.

Itís only crap Chinese companies who produce their own crap you can say this about.

Good Chinese companies who produce their own products wonít produce crap.

Good Chinese companies who produce crap due to another crap company asking them too, is not the fault of the Chinese, itís the fault of the company using them.

Phew
The real problem is that they don't invent but they copy, quality can do it but at the price of a huge quantity; this because? Because the mentality, inspiration, inventiveness and other are the offspring of a cultural process that is formed in years and centuries as a consequence of a myriad of events that push the production of objects also to have a better quality.
You can't buy all this and transplant it wherever you want, so some emerging companies have to adapt themselves in the environment from which the ideas come and not the other way around.
I don't know if I explained myself well.
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:11 am quote
Attila wrote:
northernerbill wrote:
Ahhhhh typo on the above.

Itís only crap Chinese companies who produce their own crap you can say this about.

Good Chinese companies who produce their own products wonít produce crap.

Good Chinese companies who produce crap due to another crap company asking them too, is not the fault of the Chinese, itís the fault of the company using them.

Phew
The real problem is that they don't invent but they copy, quality can do it but at the price of a huge quantity; this because? Because the mentality, inspiration, inventiveness and other are the offspring of a cultural process that is formed in years and centuries as a consequence of a myriad of events that push the production of objects also to have a better quality.
You can't buy all this and transplant it wherever you want, so some emerging companies have to adapt themselves in the environment from which the ideas come and not the other way around.
I don't know if I explained myself well.
I totally understand your point, but at the same time motorbikes are just a tiny nano fraction of the blanket ďChineseĒ commentary.

Practically every item in your house/possession will either be Chinese or have Chinese components within it.

They are simply a vast country with both sides of the argument harbouring within....,hence making blanket comments is totally incorrect.
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:17 am quote
I didn't want to make generic comments, i was looking for an explanation that was beyond ...
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Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:31 pm quote
We've seen this before. The Japanese were accused of the same thing sixty years ago. They bought bikes from Adler and NSU and engineered bikes for sale. Marusho was a BMW copy and Kawasaki bought Meguro who built a pre-unit copy of a BSA twin then sold it as the W1 and W2TT.

Don't bet history won't repeat itself.
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Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:42 pm quote
kz1000ST wrote:
We've seen this before. The Japanese were accused of the same thing sixty years ago. They bought bikes from Adler and NSU and engineered bikes for sale. Marusho was a BMW copy and Kawasaki bought Meguro who built a pre-unit copy of a BSA twin then sold it as the W1 and W2TT.

Don't bet history won't repeat itself.
True, very wise words. Thanks for remembering it...
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Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:59 pm quote
Attila wrote:
All the companies that produce in China are at least 51% owned by the chinese government ...
That's one of those things someone said, then a lot of people repeated, and now people think it's true. But it's not. Private companies are not SOEs.
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Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:06 pm quote
kz1000ST wrote:
We've seen this before. The Japanese were accused of the same thing sixty years ago. They bought bikes from Adler and NSU and engineered bikes for sale. Marusho was a BMW copy and Kawasaki bought Meguro who built a pre-unit copy of a BSA twin then sold it as the W1 and W2TT.

Don't bet history won't repeat itself.
Are you referring to that fictional time when all the Japanese companies made the exact same engine?
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Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:48 pm quote
I think it is a good move by Harley to attract younger customers.
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Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:02 am quote
Aren't they called AMF?

Still if it is an old Harley not much technology to transfer or worry about being stolen?
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Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:42 am quote
Motovista wrote:
kz1000ST wrote:
We've seen this before. The Japanese were accused of the same thing sixty years ago. They bought bikes from Adler and NSU and engineered bikes for sale. Marusho was a BMW copy and Kawasaki bought Meguro who built a pre-unit copy of a BSA twin then sold it as the W1 and W2TT.

Don't bet history won't repeat itself.
Are you referring to that fictional time when all the Japanese companies made the exact same engine?
No. I'm referring to the attitude that all the Japanese could do was copy and were looked down upon as third class. Since the Chinese are building scooter motors for BMW, bike engines for BMW, Genuine and Suzuki and others the attitude is the same. Yes, they all build GY6 motors but they also built Piaggio Flys for a couple of years until they moved production to Vietnam.

CF Moto just released patent designs for a new 700cc engine so the days of copying people could be coming to an end for them. The CF Moto 150cc water cooled designs in the E Charm and Jewel, not to mention the 250cc Jet Max, were original designs also. I'm not up on what CF Moto uses in their ATVs and side by sides but I suspect they aren't copies either.
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Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:34 am quote
Motovista wrote:
Attila wrote:
All the companies that produce in China are at least 51% owned by the chinese government ...
That's one of those things someone said, then a lot of people repeated, and now people think it's true. But it's not. Private companies are not SOEs.
What does apply is that in joint ventures operating in China the Chinese party owns at least 51%, governmental or not. Which is not a bad policy, if someone wishes to take advance in lower labour costs, it makes sense not to give it for free...
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Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:19 am quote
State capitalism. It is the death of ideas...and other things; this is why resources are sought from other countries. What then is cheap to produce at low cost where working conditions exploit workers ... guys, we can plug our noses and close our eyes but nothing is done with anything.
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Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:36 am quote
waspmike wrote:
Aren't they called AMF?
Willie Davidson and a group of investors bought Harley Davidson back from AMF in 1981.
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Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:33 pm quote
Dooglas wrote:
waspmike wrote:
Aren't they called AMF?
Willie Davidson and a group of investors bought Harley Davidson back from AMF in 1981.




WOW! The daughters of the beat generation!
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Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:02 pm quote
Harbinger wrote:
Dooglas wrote:
Attila wrote:
It is the story of my life, there is a sort of parallelism given that as i work i cultivate and sell kiwi that is not a typical italian product but is originally from China.
So are noodles, even though pasta seems as Italian as Vespas.
As a bonus kids get to play Marco Polo. Italians may have gotten pasta from China but I have to say they did a damn good job in taking a great thing and running with it. Pizza though....
Marco Polo might also have discovered pasta in Italy, where they had been eating it for centuries before he went to China. Many experts credit Polo with introducing the long noodle made of dried flour to the Chinese. Prior to that, what they ate as Main, wouldn't be recognizable today as noodles.
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Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:17 pm quote
Attila wrote:
Dooglas wrote:
waspmike wrote:
Aren't they called AMF?
Willie Davidson and a group of investors bought Harley Davidson back from AMF in 1981.




WOW! The daughters of the beat generation!
Aermacchi! Nice advertisements
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Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:07 am quote
For Motovista:

But the pizza, intended as a DOC product made in Italy, is the one with mozzarella and tomato (base).
I consider myself an expert on this food, in my places there is a type with 30% buffalo mozzarella and 70% cow mozzarella; point out the restaurant where they do it:
https://www.tripadvisor.it/Restaurant_Review-g1924382-d1905870-Reviews-Ristorante_Pizzeria_Il_Giardino-Fossanova_Province_of_Latina_Lazio.html
Ask for Davide and say that Attilio "the kiwi man" sends you
(in the reviews there are those who are not happy but it is a small place, better to go during the week)
End OT.
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Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:06 am quote
I worked on that small bike line at AMF as I got of Vo-Tech school, 1974 as combination welder/line assembly as needed.

The assembly line was an eye opening experience for me, as you learned to do a thing, like attaching wires (always a touch to short) , then tapping out a foot peg holes from weld splatter, as very very few parts were able to be just installed out of the parts baskets from Italy, without something being done to them first....so on the line it was a frantic orchestra of sorts.

Also AMF and the union, (again something very new to me) were at war with each other, during my few years there.

The work I loved, the assembly line not so much, but being a combination welder, I was bounced all over the facility.

The small bikes were built on a part of the old bomb line at AMF. I got work on Pin Spotter line, snowmobile line, the big bike lines, all over.

Since then, I've worked with many workers from many different nations, and as I see it, we all make mistakes.
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