Chinese Harleys???
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:51 am quote
Bill Dog wrote:
Don't get me started on Terrance and Philip.

Bill x
I thought we apologized for them? We're really good at saying sorry.
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Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:55 am quote
You guys....

Yeh German products sucks too, just for you harbinger with your first world problems.

Sorry but the whole undertone of this thread is what I am saying, or why would it exist.
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Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:58 am quote
Need
Shrugs, whistles, puts hands in pockets and walks away.

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Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:00 pm quote
Bill Dog wrote:
Shrugs, whistles, puts hands in pockets and walks away.

Bill x
Great youíve just got the moral high ground.
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Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:00 pm quote
northernerbill wrote:
This whole post, is based on how now HD are going to use Chinese companies to produce their new model.

And then several pages of posts either knocking or justifying China.

Come on mate, itís black and white.

If you honestly canít see my point, Iím shocked
you are reading something that is not here guy. You seem to be reading between the lines that no one else sees. We are having a discussion

This is a big problem today, some says XYZ very clearly and someone sees ABC as there interpretation of what they meant.
No they meant just what they clearly said, with no side implications.
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Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:01 pm quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
northernerbill wrote:
This whole post, is based on how now HD are going to use Chinese companies to produce their new model.

And then several pages of posts either knocking or justifying China.

Come on mate, itís black and white.

If you honestly canít see my point, Iím shocked
you are reading something that is not here guy. You seem to be reading between the lines that no one else sees. We are having a discussion

This is a big problem today, some says XYZ very clearly and someone sees ABC as there interpretation of what they meant.
No they meant just what they clearly said, with no side implications.
Nope
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:03 pm quote
I think Northern Bill has had a pint too many while watching women's football.

Shrug....

There is really is no Chinese bashing in this thread. Though now Canada, the USA and Germany have been bashed as well as me.

What's wrong with owning a BMW product? They make pretty good stuff.

*EDIT* Regarding my "first words problems" . I was born with a single mother with 4 children on a nurses salary and a deadbeat dad. No silver spoon in my mouth and I am where I am now by working my ass off and TBH being very good at what I do. I did a six month bootcamp to get my MCSE and other than that all I have is high school.

Last edited by Harbinger on Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:03 pm quote
Zipper
No, but I'm not going to convince you because your mind is made up.

There is no bias and no agenda.

I don't know what else to say.

Bill x
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Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:10 pm quote
So weíve had 4 pages of pro reasons why HD using Chinese companies is great.

Get real.

But yeh the old boys club stick together. Sorry but as before the undertones of this thread are real.

2-1 to the USA currently, come on England, only 2 beers in.
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Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:11 pm quote
When I wrote "Chinese Harleys????" it was my way of expressing surprise. Harley has been cozying up to India the past few years. I was surprised that Harley wasn't going to build a World Bike there and export it to other countries. It makes perfect sense for them to go after the Chinese market. It's the second largest in the world and they can also form alliances to build things at a lower price than even Thailand.

Of all the people here I am not even a suspect as a China basher. My Chinese collection has done over 30,000 total miles with nary a slip.
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Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:12 pm quote
Regarding the use of cheap labor, I can add that FCA produces many car models in countries such as Serbia, Poland, Turkey, Brazil precisely for this. But if the workers in those countries are well, I don't see a problem. Recently in the Serbian factory there have been requests for salary increases that have been granted. The quality of cars has never failed. FCA also has factories in China but now here in Italy it is a bit joking when it comes to Chinese products. We also got used to the fallibility (true or false) of some things but then we buy them anyway because they are cheaper and convenient We don't make a social war on this ... it is not worth doing that.
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Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:12 pm quote
Empty
It's more a case of that we don't know what you're going on about but nothing good is going to come of this so take care.

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Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:15 pm quote
kz1000ST wrote:
When I wrote "Chinese Harleys????" it was my way of expressing surprise. Harley has been cozying up to India the past few years. I was surprised that Harley wasn't going to build a World Bike there and export it to other countries. It makes perfect sense for them to go after the Chinese market. It's the second largest in the world and they can also form alliances to build things at a lower price than even Thailand.

Of all the people here I am not even a suspect as a China basher. My Chinese collection has done over 30,000 total miles with nary a slip.
Thatís great clarity and thank you for stating that.
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Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:18 pm quote
Rise
Harbinger ? June 2020 ?

Bill x
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Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:19 pm quote
Bill Dog wrote:
It's more a case of that we don't know what you're going on about but nothing good is going to come of this so take care.

Bill x
Yes you do, but your being pedantic
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Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:19 pm quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
northernerbill wrote:
This whole post, is based on how now HD are going to use Chinese companies to produce their new model.

And then several pages of posts either knocking or justifying China.

Come on mate, itís black and white.

If you honestly canít see my point, Iím shocked
you are reading something that is not here guy. You seem to be reading between the lines that no one else sees. We are having a discussion

This is a big problem today, some says XYZ very clearly and someone sees ABC as there interpretation of what they meant.
No they meant just what they clearly said, with no side implications.
Stop it! I find myself occasionally agreeing with some of the things you have posted lately. Must be a full moon :-\ The universe is not properly aligned.

BTW this has turned out to be an awesome thread. Or at least entertaining and there actually was some intelligent conversation going on for a while.

*EDIT* Spelling is hard, almost as hard as math or binary.

Last edited by Harbinger on Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:22 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:20 pm quote
Gas
No, I'm just not going to feed the monster so take care.

Bill x
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Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:26 pm quote
Forget you 2, Iím watching the football
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:31 pm quote
Harbinger wrote:
WEB-Tech wrote:
northernerbill wrote:
This whole post, is based on how now HD are going to use Chinese companies to produce their new model.

And then several pages of posts either knocking or justifying China.

Come on mate, itís black and white.

If you honestly canít see my point, Iím shocked
you are reading something that is not here guy. You seem to be reading between the lines that no one else sees. We are having a discussion

This is a big problem today, some says XYZ very clearly and someone sees ABC as there interpretation of what they meant.
No they meant just what they clearly said, with no side implications.
Stop it! I find myself occasionally agreeing with some of the things you have posted lately. Must be a full moon :-\ The universe is not properly aligned.

BTW this has turned out to be an awesome thread. Or at least entertaining and there actually was some intelligent conversation going on for a while.

*EDIT* Spelling is hard, almost as hard as math or binary.
My spelling is terrible, thank god for google and spell check. I make my friends "Quote of the day page" with my miss spelling and poor grammar on company chat.
One of the best ones, "it is what is"
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Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:44 pm quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
My spelling is terrible, thank god for google and spell check. I make my friends "Quote of the day page" with my miss spelling and poor grammar on company chat.
One of the best ones, "it is what is"
Belters* just say "Is is."


* The Expanse
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:32 pm quote
Re: Rise
Bill Dog wrote:
Harbinger ? June 2020 ?

Bill x
Sure, sounds good to me.
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Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:56 am quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
Harbinger wrote:
WEB-Tech wrote:
northernerbill wrote:
This whole post, is based on how now HD are going to use Chinese companies to produce their new model.

And then several pages of posts either knocking or justifying China.

Come on mate, itís black and white.

If you honestly canít see my point, Iím shocked
you are reading something that is not here guy. You seem to be reading between the lines that no one else sees. We are having a discussion

This is a big problem today, some says XYZ very clearly and someone sees ABC as there interpretation of what they meant.
No they meant just what they clearly said, with no side implications.
Stop it! I find myself occasionally agreeing with some of the things you have posted lately. Must be a full moon :-\ The universe is not properly aligned.

BTW this has turned out to be an awesome thread. Or at least entertaining and there actually was some intelligent conversation going on for a while.

*EDIT* Spelling is hard, almost as hard as math or binary.
My spelling is terrible, thank god for google and spell check. I make my friends "Quote of the day page" with my miss spelling and poor grammar on company chat.
One of the best ones, "it is what is"
... use a translator ...
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Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:16 pm quote
Must
I'm guessing what happened with Benelli is that they were either going to struggle like many an Italian manufacturer has in the past - Laverda, MV Agusta and even Ducati or take the Chinese investment and know that their future would be secure.

If MG in the UK hadn't been bought by SAIC Motor after the demise of Rover they wouldn't exist.

For that I'm thankful.

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Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:22 pm quote
Do MG still exist? In what reality?
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Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:44 pm quote
Play
Yup,

They make sports hatches now and SUV's

Bill x
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Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:04 pm quote
The MG intended as an "English" car manufacturer no longer exists:
From Wikipedia: "In September 2016, SAIC announced the definitive closure of the Longbridge plant in England following the Brexit. The assembly of the MGs in the historic English factory thus ends, however the layoffs concern only 25 workers in as only bonnet bumpers and minor components of the models produced in China were assembled in the plant. The research and development center still based in Longbridge and the European headquarters of the SAIC Motor, which includes about 400 workers including engineers and designers, remains operational. "
And anyway it was just an assembly factory ...
I would add that, in my opinion, if it were not for employment problems a brand of cars or motorcycles that was in a position to close, it would have to close and deliver the brand itself to history. And definitely enter the legend ...
I would never give the Ferrari brand to anyone! Never! Rather i take my 357 and make a barricade with others in front of the factory gates, but you know ... we italians either bow or do a question of honor ... there is no middle ground.

Last edited by Attila on Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:18 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:13 pm quote
Click
Yes. I know.
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Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:42 pm quote
Re: Play
Bill Dog wrote:
They make sports hatches now and SUV's
I saw them in the local mall. I thought they looked like a cheap knock off of a Haval. Then I saw the badge and cried a little.
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Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:42 am quote
True
This is assembled in China...

download.jpeg

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Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:30 pm quote
How do you all feel about those USA assembled Hodnaís?
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Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:26 pm quote
Bits
I still think I'd prefer one that came from Japan.

I'm not sure that I can truly explain why.

It's like a BMW being built in South Africa, a Mercedes Benz being built in the US or a VW being built in Mexico.

For me there's something assuring about a vehicle coming from the manufacturers country of origin.

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Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:58 am quote
znomit wrote:
How do you all feel about those USA assembled Hodnaís?
and BMWs and Mercedes vans and Volvos and Kias and Hyundais, and Nissans. Yamaha has a plant here in the US to make ATVs and UTVs, which makes a lot of sense when you consider where the ATV market is.

I think it was Toyota that considered building a plant in the southern US, where most of the new manufacturing is, and decided to build in Canada instead because in the southern US the manufacturers had to rewrite some of the training manuals using pictures instead of text, due to the literacy level of many of the potential employees.

Volvo just had a recall because someone was hand tightening the bolt that holds one of the rear shocks on some of the cars, and it got shipped anyway, and Boeing is having an issue or two.

Honda moved all their US M/C production back to Japan, more than likely to save Japanese jobs. They also took on Yamaha's 50cc scooter production for the Japanese market for the same reason.

Personally I think Japanese products made in Japanese factories are probably as good as it gets when it comes to quality control. On the other hand, if you own a Honda Transalp made in Japan, you know they are better than the ones made in Italy. If you own a Transalp made in Italy, you are sure they are just as good as the ones made in Japan, and better than the ones made in Brazil, but you secretly wish they were still made in Japan. But if you own a Transalp made in Brazil, you are positive they are every bit as good as the ones made in Italy and Japan, but you secretly wish they were still made in Japan.

The big problem with Chinese manufacturing that hasn't been addressed by the "isn't this wonderful?" side of the discussion, which has affected just about every large manufacturer that has set up a factory there and relied on Chinese suppliers, is something called Quality Fade. Given the huge amount of components and suppliers needed to manufacture a motor vehicle, "just in time" supply chains, and the speed at which products go from factory to dealer, it's almost impossible to catch every instance of this before the product reaches the consumer. While this is a problem when the affected part is something like a center stand, it's a much bigger issue when it's a crankshaft or one of the components in the braking system, or many of the parts that go into a commercial jetliner.

Last edited by Motovista on Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:14 am; edited 3 times in total
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:09 am quote
Very well said...
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:01 am quote
Motovista wrote:
The big problem with Chinese manufacturing that hasn't been addressed by the "isn't this wonderful?" side of the discussion, which has affected just about every large manufacturer that has set up a factory there and relied on Chinese suppliers, is something called Quality Fade. Given the huge amount of components and suppliers needed to manufacture a motor vehicle, "just in time" supply chains, and the speed at which products go from factory to dealer, it's almost impossible to catch every instance of this before the product reaches the consumer. While this is a problem when the affected part is something like a center stand, it's a much bigger issue when it's a crankshaft or one of the components in the braking system, or many of the parts that go into a commercial jetliner.
I read a review of a made in China "Italian" motorcycle (can't remember what reborn brand). The big brand headlight bulb blew during the test so they went to buy another. It didn't exist.
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:17 am quote
... a single piece does not make statistics ... it can happen.
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:37 am quote
????????

I think it was Toyota that considered building a plant in the southern US, where most of the new manufacturing is, and decided to build in Canada instead because in the southern US the manufacturers had to rewrite some of the training manuals using pictures instead of text, due to the literacy level of many of the potential employees.

http://toyotaky.com/boutdex.asp

http://www.toyotatexas.com/

Nobody is saying "Isn't this wonderful" but the Chinese aren't the only ones caught up in the pressures of producing quickly to satisfy demand. I would think the fuel pump issues Vespa had is testimony to that. Steve Williams and others had failed pumps outside of the recalls. Demand for scooters built around the surge in gas prices in 2007-2008 caught a lot of people out.

I would wait and see what Genuine's warranty work rate is for the Royal Alloy is before calling it a dog. Genuine added the Kick, G400 and now the Royal Alloy to their Chinese built repertoire. Obviously they wouldn't sacrifice their reputation for a larger profit.

I recently spoke to Mike Hickman at Alliance. He has created a new division called Scootstar that supplies 50cc at a reasonable cost. They're being built by Znen who he ditched 10 years ago because of lack of quality. I would imagine they must have upped their game for that to happen.
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:51 am quote
More and more
More and more, it doesn't matter where the factory is. Because a great deal of the assembly and QC is done by robots and computers. Watched a show on a Porsche factory. Autonomous 'transporters' mover parts and assemblies around. Engines are 'hand assembled', except the torque wrenches are almost all computer-controlled and verified. A guy puts on the wheel, but the lugs are tightened with a computer-controlled wrench. Almost all of the body welding, and body painting, is done by robots. I'd guess robots work as well in China as they do in Germany.

Read an article on cars. Evidently fewer and fewer cars are 'American' in the snese that more than 50% of content is locally sourced. Probably plenty of Chinese parts in your F-150, especially now that almost everything is computer-controlled.

The big question is, are the parts being properly spec'd? Yes, the Chinese have sold some bikes that use soft fasteners and suspect materials. Doesn't mean they have to. Just that they chose to.

And the bigger question is, why is Harley diluting their 'brand' by selling bikes built outside the US? I know they are struggling (evidently KTM sold more bikes than they did recently) but I've got to think that much of the appeal, to Americans and foreign buyers, is the "Made in USA" label. Perhaps because I can't think of any other reason to buy one, but still. Sure seems like they'd want a 'second label', like Buell, for these products.
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:57 am quote
It is not possible to make a criminal trial to a builder every time there is a defective piece, the important thing is to implement the guarantee (when there is) and whether a recall campaign is also needed. I believe that in every country the government has a website with the references, manufacturer and model involved online; as for improving production processes, that is a function that must always exist.
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:11 am quote
Re: More and more
Jimding wrote:
And the bigger question is, why is Harley diluting their 'brand' by selling bikes built outside the US? I know they are struggling (evidently KTM sold more bikes than they did recently) but I've got to think that much of the appeal, to Americans and foreign buyers, is the "Made in USA" label. Perhaps because I can't think of any other reason to buy one, but still. Sure seems like they'd want a 'second label', like Buell, for these products.
Why are they stubbornly not diluting their brand in the USA? Or how about, is it even diluting their brand if its evolving with the market demands instead of refusing to ignore those changes? Many examples of them refusing to admit the market for $30k and up motorcycles is just not there in the US anymore are proving they are headed the way of AMF Harley again. One of those examples is their pricing for the electric harley being insanely expensive. Don't give me that technology is expensive. Multiple other brands have better specs at half the price. The CEO himself has responded to this with essentially a shrug, a smile and a "because we can" admitting they don't care about pricing to create a balance between their desire to create false demand of a luxury item and increased sales an appropriately priced bike would actually provide.
https://www.outsideonline.com/2385526/why-harleys-new-electric-motorcycle-costs-30000

The other glaring example is them making these smaller engine cheaper bikes in asia and only selling them in asia. Sell some smaller engine/cheaper bikes for 3-5k in America, better yet, MAKE THEM IN AMERICA, and you won't have this dwindling market of aging guys with rather large disposable income at hand (no offense to anyone who is.. some day I hope to be), fading away. People under 50 don't want 800lbs bikes with giant fairings and kitchen cabinets strapped to either side of the back wheel for the price of a decent car.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Harley hater. I would own a sportster 48 if I had the space and could find a used one cheap enough. I just don't see this brand lasting when they act like it is 1990 and people are jumping at the chance to spend tens of thousands of dollars. They just aren't.
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:17 am quote
... at this point, if I could buy a motorcycle I would take a Ducati ... and I apologize to the harleyst electricians.
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