Chinese Harleys???
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:39 am quote
Motovista wrote:
http://www.businessedge.ca/archives/article.cfm/educated-workforce-tipped-toyota-plant-into-woodstock-10053
+1 Could make a political statement but I think this speaks enough to a much larger issue.
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:04 am quote
Re: More and more
swiss1939 wrote:
The other glaring example is them making these smaller engine cheaper bikes in asia and only selling them in asia. Sell some smaller engine/cheaper bikes for 3-5k in America, better yet, MAKE THEM IN AMERICA, and you won't have this dwindling market of aging guys with rather large disposable income at hand (no offense to anyone who is.. some day I hope to be), fading away. People under 50 don't want 800lbs bikes with giant fairings and kitchen cabinets strapped to either side of the back wheel for the price of a decent car.
The bigger problem for Harley is that people in the US under 30 don't want motorcycles.There are two markets in the US that are successfully targeted by branding like HD does. The market that already own the product, and the market that wants the product. One of these markets is dwindling, and the other one doesn't exist in sufficient numbers to support the current level of production in the US.
MBenz has had a similar approach to the US market for many years. The models with cloth interior, manual transmission and roll down windows were never offered in the US.

The writing is on the wall, and I think it's obvious that no matter what they do or don't do, HD is going to lose market in the US. The question seems how to best lessen and offset this. This new approach seems to be to go to where people need a motorcycle, and make them want a Harley, then give them something they can afford.

A large number of HD buyers see it as an investment.
HD has a lot of very long term sales contracts on the books. They use these contracts as an asset to secure funding. Presently, the delinquency rate is rising.
If they were to lower the price to play in the US, the resale market would probably soften dramatically. If someone is in year two of an eight year contract with a payoff of $30,000 and the underlying asset is suddenly worth $6,000, that will destroy demand for new vehicles, and make it a lot easier to justify walking away from the vehicle.
It's almost like what would happen if DeBeers opened the vaults and sold what they have for whatever the market would bear at that moment.
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:40 am quote
I understand ... it's like Ducati did first, then Moto Guzzi and finally MV Agusta. Limited production of elite models and a couple of others within everyone's reach but with an eye to foreign markets.
Fortunately, Piaggio, Aprilia and a few others had scooter production, otherwise survival would have been hardThe British motorcycle production did not go so well ...
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:19 am quote
Attila wrote:
Fortunately, Piaggio, Aprilia and a few others had scooter production, otherwise survival would have been hard. The British motorcycle production did not go so well ...
Even there, the story in the US has not been good. Aprilia scooters have essentially disappeared, and the resale of Piaggio branded scooters here is quite low. Only the Vespa branding does well in the US. And even then, the total number of units sold is nothing to write home about.
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:34 am quote
Re: More and more
swiss1939 wrote:
Jimding wrote:
And the bigger question is, why is Harley diluting their 'brand' by selling bikes built outside the US? I know they are struggling (evidently KTM sold more bikes than they did recently) but I've got to think that much of the appeal, to Americans and foreign buyers, is the "Made in USA" label. Perhaps because I can't think of any other reason to buy one, but still. Sure seems like they'd want a 'second label', like Buell, for these products.
Why are they stubbornly not diluting their brand in the USA? Or how about, is it even diluting their brand if its evolving with the market demands instead of refusing to ignore those changes? Many examples of them refusing to admit the market for $30k and up motorcycles is just not there in the US anymore are proving they are headed the way of AMF Harley again. One of those examples is their pricing for the electric harley being insanely expensive. Don't give me that technology is expensive. Multiple other brands have better specs at half the price. The CEO himself has responded to this with essentially a shrug, a smile and a "because we can" admitting they don't care about pricing to create a balance between their desire to create false demand of a luxury item and increased sales an appropriately priced bike would actually provide.
https://www.outsideonline.com/2385526/why-harleys-new-electric-motorcycle-costs-30000

The other glaring example is them making these smaller engine cheaper bikes in asia and only selling them in asia. Sell some smaller engine/cheaper bikes for 3-5k in America, better yet, MAKE THEM IN AMERICA, and you won't have this dwindling market of aging guys with rather large disposable income at hand (no offense to anyone who is.. some day I hope to be), fading away. People under 50 don't want 800lbs bikes with giant fairings and kitchen cabinets strapped to either side of the back wheel for the price of a decent car.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Harley hater. I would own a sportster 48 if I had the space and could find a used one cheap enough. I just don't see this brand lasting when they act like it is 1990 and people are jumping at the chance to spend tens of thousands of dollars. They just aren't.
Ahh... in America.

Whereas in Europe there is nothing hotter than spending huge sums of money to heavy bikes equipped with kitchen cabinets Just have to be the right brand.

hqdefault.jpg

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Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:45 am quote
Bing
Oh that's really funny.

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Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:57 am quote
The Harley ship took a blow from Indian that is making life miserable for Milwaukee. My friend recently went to the Americade Rally in Lake George and while Indian had a huge presence for test rides Harley had zero...none...zip. If they keep ignoring Polaris it will not go well for them.
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:02 am quote
Must
Have you seen Triumph's marketing recently ?

That's the reason HD are taking a kicking.

It's young, brash and the bikes aren't all a V twin.

Bill x
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:18 am quote
True

Ciao Bill

PS: BMW in photo that's not a motorcycle, it's a container ...in Italy sell more Suzuki V Strom.

Last edited by Attila on Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:30 am; edited 3 times in total
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:20 am quote
Aprilia was acquired by the Piaggio group https://www.piaggiogroup.com/it/gruppo which also owns other brands; USA they are one of the many markets in which they export. Maybe they won't make so many sales numbers but they were the first to retain customers with a scooter. In fact the Vespa is still the most imitated, satisfaction does not consist in how many pieces are sold but rather in the icon that is bought. Harley Davidson is also like that but for motorcycles, that's why it has to expand ... to survive globalization.
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:12 pm quote
Attila wrote:
Aprilia was acquired by the Piaggio group https://www.piaggiogroup.com/it/gruppo which also owns other brands; USA they are one of the many markets in which they export. Maybe they won't make so many sales numbers but they were the first to retain customers with a scooter.
I was only commenting that Aprilia has stopped importing scooters to the US except for a single 50 cc model. Too bad really. I owned a Sport City 300 for several years. It was an excellent scooter.
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:15 pm quote
kz1000ST wrote:
The Harley ship took a blow from Indian that is making life miserable for Milwaukee. My friend recently went to the Americade Rally in Lake George and while Indian had a huge presence for test rides Harley had zero...none...zip. If they keep ignoring Polaris it will not go well for them.
Looking at their latest SEC filings that doesn't appear to be the case. Polaris states its sales are heavily influenced by its ORV sales. The haven't spoke to sales of Indian motorcycles being a factor since last year.

Motorcycle sales for the 3 months ended March 31, 2019:

H-D $965M
Polaris (Indian) 117.9M (includes the 3 wheeled Slingshot) Polaris doesn't mention if this number includes parts and accessories or mc apparel.
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:49 pm quote
SUV
Look at the badge.

20190705_171141_resized.jpg

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Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:48 pm quote
Re: Must
Bill Dog wrote:
Have you seen Triumph's marketing recently ?

That's the reason HD are taking a kicking.

It's young, brash and the bikes aren't all a V twin.

Bill x
Between them and Indian. HD really missed the boat to use a more polite term. The thing is I think HD knows that now and are scrambling to correct the problem.
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:33 pm quote
Excuse me Bill but i know that out of necessity virtue is made...
I don't want to diminish the effort made to keep the MG brand in fashion but seeing it mounted on an SUV and not on a sports car makes me sad ...
Porsche did it, Alfa Romeo did it but I don't find it "ethically" correct; unfortunately it is said: either drink or drown ... we do not like it but it is so, for the purists it is so.
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:36 pm quote
Re: Must
Harbinger wrote:
Bill Dog wrote:
Have you seen Triumph's marketing recently ?

That's the reason HD are taking a kicking.

It's young, brash and the bikes aren't all a V twin.

Bill x
Between them and Indian. HD really missed the boat to use a more polite term. The thing is I think HD knows that now and are scrambling to correct the problem.
... a little late ... I hope they do it. Sincerely.
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Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:52 am quote
Attila wrote:
Excuse me Bill but i know that out of necessity virtue is made...
I don't want to diminish the effort made to keep the MG brand in fashion but seeing it mounted on an SUV and not on a sports car makes me sad ...
Porsche did it, Alfa Romeo did it but I don't find it "ethically" correct; unfortunately it is said: either drink or drown ... we do not like it but it is so, for the purists it is so.
One of the most difficult things for Porsche was building a market for a car that wasn't a rear engine flat layout. They realized early on that the technology could only take them so far into the future, and kept throwing rice at the wall. Eventually some stuck.
Harley has made several half hearted attempts to develop models that weren't built around big, air cooled V-twins. But their focus seems to be much shorter term than many of their competitors, their development of new products seemed too focused on receiving praise from current product owners, and they don't seem able to stick with something that doesn't provide immediate gratification. It's hard to justify designing and supporting a new model, and building a new market, for years when you can come out with a new line of T shirts and make more money tomorrow.
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Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:59 am quote
Carve
And before they brought out the first generation Boxster they were close to very close to going deeply in the red.

The Macan was still the most successful model by volume with 86,031 vehicles, just ahead of the Cayenne with 71,458 deliveries. The Chinese market held on to pole position for deliveries again in 2018.

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Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:00 pm quote
Click
I think that this says it all -

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Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:20 pm quote
Re: SUV
Bill Dog wrote:
Look at the badge.
Sad.

My first car was a rusty 64 MGB ragtop with knock off wire wheels.

When I show Gen X/Y/Z friends and relatives a picture of the car and tell them it was an MG, they all ask, "who made it?"
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Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:15 pm quote
Re: SUV
25BIKEZ wrote:
Bill Dog wrote:
Look at the badge.
Sad.

My first car was a rusty 64 MGB ragtop with knock off wire wheels.

When I show Gen X/Y/Z friends and relatives a picture of the car and tell them it was an MG, they all ask, "who made it?"
You mean: "who is the culprit?"
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Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:59 am quote
Re: SUV
Attila wrote:
25BIKEZ wrote:
Bill Dog wrote:
Look at the badge.
Sad.

My first car was a rusty 64 MGB ragtop with knock off wire wheels.

When I show Gen X/Y/Z friends and relatives a picture of the car and tell them it was an MG, they all ask, "who made it?"
You mean: "who is the culprit?"
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Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:36 pm quote
Parts
What would you prefer - the marque continuing to exist under non European ownership or it not existing at all ?

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Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:53 am quote
Re: Parts
Bill Dog wrote:
What would you prefer - the marque continuing to exist under non European ownership or it not existing at all ?

Bill x
I agree with you, between non-existence for national pride and existence by necessity prevails the need ... there is little to do or as they say in Italy: "there are no more saints to ask for grace".
A) if he remains in the country of birth with the factory
B) if it maintains the style of the brand
C) if the project philosophy remains
D) if anyone is willing to buy a vehicle
Yes, Benelli did this for a living and is a good example
PS: if the brexit becomes effective, i think point A jumps...ouch!
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Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:33 am quote
Rubber
I for one am grateful for the Chinese because if they didn't pour money into Benelli I wouldn't be laughing as much as I have been.

Yay.

Bill x
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Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:00 pm quote
... and i'm glad you appreciate ... Benelli and others.
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Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:13 am quote
Lump
Image coming

Check this out.

Akuma White Side_13-05-19_16_13.jpg

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Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:22 am quote
Wicked Cool Bill!
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Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:23 am quote
Bong
Oh dear.

I think I really like it.

$2300.

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Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:21 am quote
... but ... what is ...? I do not understand...
(Why "bong" )
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Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:24 am quote
Reveal
Sinnis Akuma 125 Compact Bike.

Chinese Grom.

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Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:39 am quote
Thanks for the explanation Bill, very kind
Attilio.
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Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:14 pm quote
How many miles on the Benelli these days Bill.
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Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:50 pm quote
Pudding
Barely 1300 miles which I can only apologise for.

I'm taking it back out today to try bed in the new City Grips as the original Cordials were a little vague in the day and a gamble in the wet.

South Eastern Biker Magazine want me to write it up which is flattering so I must put some more miles on it.

Joking apart I really enjoy riding it especially around the lanes as it's perfect for blasting around them.

Bill x
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Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:54 am quote
Fat Man
This morning

IMG-20190722-WA0005 (1).jpg

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Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:18 am quote
Wordz
No one apart from you speaks Italian and the page won't translate.

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Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:28 am quote
Re: Wordz
Bill Dog wrote:
No one apart from you speaks Italian and the page won't translate.

Bill x
MV Agusta allies with the Chinese giant Loncin.
A long-term cooperation agreement, to develop a new range of 350-500 cc motorcycles that from 2021 will be available under the MV Agusta brand. But also to collaborate with Loncin in the development of 800 cc bikes to be marketed in the East with its premium Voge brand

MV Agusta Motor and Loncin Motor Co Ltd today announce a long-term strategic agreement for the development of a new family of MV Agusta brand products, in the 350-500 cc displacement range.

"The vehicles, entirely designed and engineered by the Schiranna company - the joint press release states - are destined to occupy the premium segment of a rapidly growing market. The industrial phase will take place in partnership with Loncin, a leader in motorcycle production in Asia .

"As in all MV Agusta motorcycles, even in these 4 new models the DNA of the house will be immediately evident, starting from the design, and, together with the unmistakable roar and driving dynamics, it will conquer the new riders".

"This strategic alliance will allow MV Agusta to expand its product portfolio, gaining ever greater success at a global level, particularly in Asian markets, through collaboration with Loncin Motor Co Ltd".

"This collaboration represents an important step in the implementation of MV Agusta's accelerated growth plan. The company's goal is to widen access to the brand, with the increase in MV Agusta riders and a consequent increase in turnover, not only for the smaller displacements but also for the traditional MV motorcycle range Agusta from 675, 800 and 1000 cc .
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Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:16 am quote
Pace
Well, that is a very interesting development.

Bill x
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