"The S.S. Minnow", Craig's white PX
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Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 254
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:51 am quote
I'm terrible at explaining that!

I'll try again.

Air Corrector: 160
Mixer: BE3
Main Jet : 140

Idle:55-160

Starter (Choke): 60

Polini vortex with the filter instead of the bellows: Yes

And since pictures are worth 1000 words (in case I'm confusing myself again...)

IMG_4736.jpg
Actual Jets

IMG_4739.jpg
Filter with Vortex (not Bellows)

IMG_4737.jpg
Polini Vortex

Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 254
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:28 am quote
Wen't for a running in jaunt last night. Inital impressions are really good.

Unfortunatley, the new regulator I'd put in to fix problems on the DC side, failed on the AC side.

So all my light blew. Leaving me in the dark 30 minutes from home with no lights. Sub optimal.

After a bit of thought, I unscrewed the rear lamp cover, pulled out the dead globed, stuffed a head torch into the cavity, and screwed the cover back on.

No one hit me on the way home, but it was no fun.

Another new reg is on the way.

Today I replaced the globes, put in the old reg, pulled out the DC fuse, and went riding.

It's pretty nice. I'm keeping to mostly 1/2 and occasionally 3/4 throttle, and constantly varying the speed/throttle, but it pulls like a train, and revs pretty freely (will hit 8500rmp even at 1/2 throttle if you hold it).

New flywheel, SIP 4.0 slide, and Pinasco high top lid go on tomorrow.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1139
Location: UK (South East)
Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:06 am quote
You _may_ find that 140 main is a little small for a 210 Sport, but then you are using a stock crank. I've been using a venturi with a Pinasco 225 kit and a longstroke sport(ish) crank and had to drill a main out to 150 using a 1.5mm drill bit.

All setups vary, so this is only a suggestion.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1419
Location: London UK
Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:27 am quote
Gt6MK3 wrote:
I'm terrible at explaining that!

I'll try again.

Air Corrector: 160
Mixer: BE3
Main Jet : 140

Idle:55-160

Starter (Choke): 60

Polini vortex with the filter instead of the bellows: Yes

And since pictures are worth 1000 words (in case I'm confusing myself again...)
Ok. Now I know what you're doing. Keeping your 24/24, vortex and external filter, I strongly suggest you switch to the alternate P200 jetting. This old style jetting for running in is fine but any more than a millisecond at WOT and it will be damaged.

Air Corrector: 120
Mixer: BE4
Main Jet : 140 to get splutter then reduce to no splutter
Idle:52-140
Stock slide

Keep the Pinasco slide for later if the mid is weak. Which it won't be.

Ignition timing as you are will be fine but up to 18 degrees @ 7000 when run in (next Tuesday). No need to say be exact because I think your 18 degrees will be better closer to 18 than mine.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7006
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:39 pm quote
I have a BGM Pro regulator for the smallframe (which obviously I'm not going to use in hurry), you're welcome to that.

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/voltage-regulator-4-plug-bgm-pro-12v-ac/dc-universal-bgm6690

Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 254
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:30 am quote
The Kytronic died after a few hours of running. R.I.P. little buddy.

Replaced it with a Kheper V3 on the PX200 curve (#5). We'll see how that goes.

Crisp clear (and bloody cold) spring afternoon/evening so I headed out and put a couple of hours on Jack's suggested jetting, abeit with a 145 main to stay on the rich side.

Still keeping it to about 1/2 to 3/4 throttle and mostkly constantly varying the throttle, but it's running strong.

Set the idle first with the 1200rpm and wind in till running fastest method. Fastest was just on 3/4 turn out. Its an original Dellorto, I fattened it up to 1 turn to be safe.

Ambient temp for all this was about 10C.

Temps were pretty good - about 230-260C around town, 280ish if run at 1/2 throttle (80kmph) for a time. Coulpe of sneaky runs down the freeway showed it'll do 100km/h at 3/4 throttle, 3 or 4km's of that and the temp peaked at 310.

Couple of observations are that it has a slight (just noticable) hesitation just off the line, and that it feels wierd rolling off the throttle at high speed - it's like it's unhappy revving that high and winding down without fuel being thrown in. I wish I had a better way to describe it.

In all, I think it's showing great potential.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 591
Location: california
Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:22 pm quote
Craig - awesome to see it on the road.
The experts will weigh in properly - but the following kinda stood out to me.
1. new variable timing system
2. weird hesitation off the line
3. strangeness when you dump off the throttle at higher up revs.

Perhaps all normal - and just some jetting adjustments will iron out - but in combo with temps over 300 on light running - would leave me cautious about what the variable timing is or isn't doing.

I'd be tempted to put a non variable boring ignition in there, at least as I commenced break in - and focus on the jetting. Plenty of time to squeeze out a little extra from the Kheper later.

One man's opinion.
Great to see it back on the road.
- CM
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1419
Location: London UK
Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:43 am quote
Great its running and quite well. Shame about the Kytronic. They seem to die quick if there is a poor connection. One of your wires might be wobbly.

Most of the issues you describe are weak pilot. Mixture screw should be at least 2.5 turns out on a 52/140. If you go further in than 2 turns a flat spot develops on pull away. Hopefully the issues are just this. If not it needs a bigger pilot jet.

When the pilot jet is correct a several mile 1/4 throttle cruise will hold about 280F. Before spending too much time on this get the main jet adjusted at WOT. 145 should be quite a bit too big but check the WOT plug colour to confirm.

Edit: Even easier way to adjust the mixture screw. Open at least 4 whole turns. Adjust to barely tick over. Check exhaust is smoky and runs like crap. Rev up to about 5000, close throttle and listen for a popping sound on the run down. Wind in the mixture screw 1/4 at a time until there is no pop noise on the rundown. Done.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 254
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:45 am quote
CM,

Good thought, I'll give it a test.

Jack,

Using the 1200rpm method, the "speedup" is all between 1/4 to 3/4 turns out. I's an original Dellorto, not a Spaco, so I was expecting more like 1.5 than 2.5.

I turned the "wrong" way leaving work tonight, and turned my normal 17km, 20-25 minute commute home into a 203.5km 4.5 hour jetting/running in tour. Should have left well before dark. Oops.

Upshot is - it's great at over 1/4 throttle, and up to 3/4.

Under 1/4 it kicks and bucks, machine guns and splutters. I tried it at everything from 1/2 a turn to 4 turns. at 1/2, it doesn't hesitate on accelleration, but it stutters and bumbles on decell or if I hold 1/4.

Above that, it stumble on accell, and kicks and stutters if it's held at 1/4.

I haven't spent a lot of time above 3/4, but when I did it feels a bit spluttery. I'm happy to be over rich for testing, but I'd like to disal it in propperly. A 5 km run at about 4/5 throttle had me at about 320 with a peak of 328 at 96km/h. I think it can go leaner, but it's going to up the temps.

So, currently it's crap under 1/4 throttle, great above 1/4 (it's like a mini version of suddenly getting on the pipe), great till 3/4 throttle, but a bit weak after that.

I can't "cruise" at 1/4 throttle. I can lurch... Is there alternate pilot (I assume you mean idle) to try?

Hope that helps.

C.

fullsizeoutput_3ae9.jpeg
A four hour tour...

Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 254
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:00 am quote
swa45 wrote:
You _may_ find that 140 main is a little small for a 210 Sport, but then you are using a stock crank. I've been using a venturi with a Pinasco 225 kit and a longstroke sport(ish) crank and had to drill a main out to 150 using a 1.5mm drill bit.

All setups vary, so this is only a suggestion.
What else are you running in the carb?
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1419
Location: London UK
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:30 am quote
I think it's run in now.

Ok pilot jet is way too weak. Do you have either a 50/100 or a 1 mm drill? That would be the best way to go next.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 254
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:34 am quote
I don't have a 50/100, but I do have a 1mm drill. (Actually I have from 0.6 to 3.0 in 0.1 increments) Where do I drill?
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1419
Location: London UK
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:41 am quote
This is the more fun way. Changing jets is too easy.

Take out the 52/140. Solder the top hole closed. Hand drill the top hole back to 1.00mm. file off any solder mess.

See how it goes. Leave like this until the main jet is set. 1/4 will not be too lean anymore.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 254
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:13 am quote
If it's adjusting best when only 1/2 a turn out, isn't it more likely to be too rich rather than too lean? Wont a 50/100 richen it?

The maths is killing me...
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1419
Location: London UK
Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:23 am quote
Oh. Now I've re read it you could be saying it's too rich. This makes much more sense with the 145 main jet. A sound recording would have helped.
If you are sure 1/4 is rich not lean, then keep the 52/140. It won't need weaker than that

Problem is just the main jet. Reduce until the wot colour starts to look better then check the pilot again
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:27 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
Edit: Even easier way to adjust the mixture screw. Open at least 4 whole turns. Adjust to barely tick over. Check exhaust is smoky and runs like crap. Rev up to about 5000, close throttle and listen for a popping sound on the run down. Wind in the mixture screw 1/4 at a time until there is no pop noise on the rundown. Done.
Good tip!
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 591
Location: california
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:25 pm quote
X2: good tip.

Map was hillarious...
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 254
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:05 am quote
Because I don't trust myself to know rich from lean, I chucked together a quick video.

First bit is warm (200C) but at idle, then some sound of riding it up the road at the just under 1/4 throttle mark.

To me the "machine gunning" and spluttering say's rich, but, as I say, I have no good history here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNEavxc6eVY

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1419
Location: London UK
Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:48 am quote
Well right to be confused. Is actually rich and lean. Video goes well with you explanation. As you used rich and lean words correctly.

Mixture screw is way too far in and main jet is way too big.

Open the mixture screw to 1.5 (dellorto) turns and leave it for now.

Do short wot runs in 2nd gear to check the max rpm and spluttering at wot. Once this is fixed with a smaller main jet the pilot situation will be clearer.

Sounds strong though. Once jetted better it will be easier to ride and won't need two tanks of gas to get home from work.
Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2018
Posts: 39

Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:26 am quote
Probs way off here and most likely jetting, but because you blew the kytronic and because my scooter sounded similar once, maybe check your earth from the stator?

Mine used to splutter like that, esp at low revs or off the mark. Turned out the stator wasnt properly earthed and threw the timing out something horrid. Easy check anyway.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1635

Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:56 am quote
I'm skeptical of the Polini air filter conversion. i looked into installing one, but when i looked closer at them, the aluminum carb box adapter bracket necks down quite a bit, which would create a slow down of fresh air coming in. I suppose you could jet around having the air intake necked down like that, but Polini could have easily come up with a little bit better design. Basic fluid dynamics isn't too terribly difficult to grasp. I don't know if that is contributing to the running issues.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 254
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:06 am quote
Went out and did 120km's today.

1.5 turns out. AC120. BE4. Idle 52/140.

Switched main to 140. Better.

Switched main to 138. Even better. Still a hole at 1/4 throttle. Jerky and horrid if riding at 1/4ish under light load. Better if under slight load (like uphill). If I listen, I can hear the hesitation as I accellerate, but it's less noticable (maybe I'm riding around it?).

Rode out of town and got to do 10km's fastish. 100kmph is easy, 2/3rds throttle. Max temp after 6km's of 100kmph = 320.

Coming home swapped in 135 main. Same hole at 1/4 throttle. Slightly colder ambient (10 vs 16 earlier). Traffic was annoying, couldn't get more than a 2km run at a time. Weirdly, temps were lower. Didn't get over 306, even when running hard. Peak speed 111kmph, there's more in it if I'm brave.

Got home and ran up the street where I did the 1/4 throttle runs repeating the exercise. It coughs and splutters at 1/4 now, but doesn't machine gun. Still howls away if I wind it out.


Going to wire in a press button kill switch so I can do some plug chops without fumbling for the key.

Jack - any specific data and or video/audio I can get for you? How low should I look at trying the main? Anything else I can do about the 1/4 twist hole?

Appreciate the help

C.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1419
Location: London UK
Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:23 pm quote
All going well and jetting progressing on target now. Should be another 10km/h in it yet.

How many rpm you get from a second gear WOT run? Same max rpm in third or lower?

I think the main jet is still too big but you need to be sure about this, as we all know where this ends up. The plug colour at WOT is the thing to be believed the most. WOT has to be pinned hard on the stop and where the slide is fully open (check this). If the main jet is too big WOT machine gun splutters as the revs get near max. Once reduced, like you are now, the big splutter has maybe nearly gone. Need to keep reducing the main jet and checking the plug. Look at the bottom of the insulator cone to see the main jet properly. Don't rush this part. As the main jet reduces further the 1/4 rich bog will get much better. Fine tuning comes later.

If you do a sound recording of riding while held at each throttle position (1/4, 1/2, 3/4, WOT). Then deceleration from max rpm at WOT through rundown to 1/4 throttle cruise and another from max rpm WOT to closed throttle, dropping until 2500 rpm. This should have all the noises to show where the issues are.

<128 main jet is probably where the danger zone begins. If you get down this far begin to panic.

The CHT temp can often be weird like that. Its possible that when 'way too rich' is hotter than 'normal rich', especially on a pre-mix, that the extra oil ups the compression, while the extra fuel is still burning in the exhaust stub. All making extra temperature with even less power. Hard to say but mixture and CHT are surely not linear when out of the centre zone. 'Lean' and 'going to blow up soon lean' have similar weirdness.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 254
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:43 am quote
Went out into the counrtyside to do some WOT runs on Sunday.

Couldn't find a really long safe road, eventually settled on a 3km stretch, was the longest suitable road I could find.

Max revs in 2nd = 8700 if held. 3rd = 8200, 4th is about 7000. (can't look too often, I get scared...) . Did a few test runs, Max temp 320. Max speed 112km/h (GPS).

With the 135 main in, I switched in a new plug, pointed in the right direction, started up and brutally pinned it through the gears, then held WOT in 4th . Hit the kill and clutch at the end of the road, pulled over and put the old plug and a 132 Main in.

I ran it hard on the 132, but it felt off. Did a couple of WOT runs up and down, but it felt spluttery/stuttery at high revs, and was running much higher temps (up to about 350). I was pulling up at the start point and considering if I should do a run with a fresh plug, or do some troubleshooting when it answered the question by powering down independantly from about 1/2 throttle.

I pulled the plug to gave a look, and it seemed ok, and I couldnt see any damage to the piston this time, but it wouldn't start. At this point the HT lead cap disintegrated, and while I don't know if that was cause or symptom, I was deffo buggered for the day.

Hitched a ride the 20km's back to town, picked up my van, and rescued it from the farm gate I'd hidden it behind.

Tried a new cap Sunday night, but it wasn't firing.

Today I reterminated all the Stator to CDI connectors, replaced a few dodgy looking lenghts of wire, and she fired right up.

So not much testing.

However.

This is the 135 plug after the 3km WOT run.



And the base/ground strap



and just for grins the well used plug after its 132 wot runs, and spontaneous engine stop at 1/2 throttle.

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1419
Location: London UK
Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:05 am quote
At least you now now why the kytronic failed. Loose connection.

Was 1/4 throttle better at 132?

135 is too lean. Go back to 138 and stay there for a while. Be sure at 138 that the sustained wot temp is low 300s and colour is ok.

Once stable and reliable again put in the BE3. Keep AC120 MJ138 52/140 and see what happens at 1/4. Will be more or less spluttery.

If it doesn't feel right change it back. A few seconds running weak and it's another piston hole.
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