"The S.S. Minnow", Craig's white PX
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Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 317
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:02 am quote
Yep - works a treat, with thanks to a lot of folks here, you included. Thanks to all!

Jetting is a weird story on this one, I'll try to write it up next week. Currently I'm struggling with the PHBH 30 on Hanoi Jane, and that's going very very badly. A 24/24 is a doddle compare to a PHBH so far.
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1257
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:20 am quote
Gt6MK3 wrote:
Yep - works a treat, with thanks to a lot of folks here, you included. Thanks to all!

Jetting is a weird story on this one, I'll try to write it up next week. Currently I'm struggling with the PHBH 30 on Hanoi Jane, and that's going very very badly. A 24/24 is a doddle compare to a PHBH so far.
I'm more of a measure person and want to give a air/fuel meter a try, would be nice to measure lean, rich etc. Might make setup a bit easier.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1844
Location: california
Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:29 am quote
Damn. Ride looks like it was glorious.
Minnow looks like she’s turned out to be a reliable tourer; words more often spoken then achieved.
Nice!
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x 2), 74 Primavera (x 2), 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5509
Location: So Cal
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:19 am quote
Well done. This is what it’s all about.
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1221
Location: California
Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:04 pm quote
great Photo's the tree's look beautiful
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7949
Location: seattle/athens
Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:34 am quote
Well OK..... all is forgiven. You done good and that scooter too.

You guys need to send your pics to the Aussie Tourist Bureau, that place almost looks nice enough to visit.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 317
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:06 am quote
The Minnow has proven so reliable and fun that I'm loath to fiddle with her. but I know the jetting is completely weird.

I faffed about with it trying to get the JackStack™ running before last years Mille, but ran out of time.

Eventually I just fiddled round till I had consistant numbers on the AFR, and not stoopid numbers on the CHT.

She'll do 118kmph on the flat at wot pretty much forever, and has never been over 370F. But, I know she' running rich (the spark plug tod me so the one time I pulled it, and Ginch commented on it following me this weekend.) Uphill, she runs out of legs and wont hold over 98kmph, even on a gentle slope.

So it's time to get the good folk here to chime in and see if I can improve on what's happening.

1984 PX200E
Standard gearing
Standard Crank
Malossi 210 Sport
Cases Ported
Kytronik 2016 curve 1 = 23° @ 3000rpm - 16° @ 7000rpm
BGM Fast Fuel tap
Polini Venturi
Sip road 2 with "VoodooSlot"
SIP touring flywheel
DRT 24/24 float chamber
Be9 plug.

Top speed on flat 118km. Will hold WOT for an hour (literally) without going over 360F on a 20 degree C day. Has seen 369 once on a hot windy day freeway 30 minute wot run.

Current jetting

146MJ BE3 AC160
55-100 idle
60 Choke

It's crisp through the gears, it doesn't bog or cough, and doesn't get over 330F except long WOT runs. It's deffo rich though.

Thoughts to change things around? I need it to do 1000km's in 2 days 3 weeks from now, so I can't afford to blow it up...
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2504
Location: London UK
Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:06 am quote
You've been lucky running like that. Don't look at the piston crown until you get back.

AC120 BE3 135MJ to splutter and work down from there. 52/140 is a nice pilot to end up on. Carb must be drilled to 2.1mm.

Fuel economy would be better on this jetting but as it will go faster, you're going to be thrashing the life out of it all the way.
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1257
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:22 am quote
I've had two different motors with two different temperature gauges that started seizing about 360F, I don't understand how some people run that warm and get away with it.
Gt6MK3 wrote:
The Minnow has proven so reliable and fun that I'm loath to fiddle with her. but I know the jetting is completely weird.

I faffed about with it trying to get the JackStack™ running before last years Mille, but ran out of time.

Eventually I just fiddled round till I had consistant numbers on the AFR, and not stoopid numbers on the CHT.

She'll do 118kmph on the flat at wot pretty much forever, and has never been over 370F. But, I know she' running rich (the spark plug tod me so the one time I pulled it, and Ginch commented on it following me this weekend.) Uphill, she runs out of legs and wont hold over 98kmph, even on a gentle slope.

So it's time to get the good folk here to chime in and see if I can improve on what's happening.

1984 PX200E
Standard gearing
Standard Crank
Malossi 210 Sport
Cases Ported
Kytronik 2016 curve 1 = 23° @ 3000rpm - 16° @ 7000rpm
BGM Fast Fuel tap
Polini Venturi
Sip road 2 with "VoodooSlot"
SIP touring flywheel
DRT 24/24 float chamber
Be9 plug.

Top speed on flat 118km. Will hold WOT for an hour (literally) without going over 360F on a 20 degree C day. Has seen 369 once on a hot windy day freeway 30 minute wot run.

Current jetting

146MJ BE3 AC160
55-100 idle
60 Choke

It's crisp through the gears, it doesn't bog or cough, and doesn't get over 330F except long WOT runs. It's deffo rich though.

Thoughts to change things around? I need it to do 1000km's in 2 days 3 weeks from now, so I can't afford to blow it up...
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1844
Location: california
Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:59 am quote
Christopher - two main factors I've experienced.
1. Temp gauge brand and how it's connected.
- For those that screw directly in the head - 300° under plug = 350° directly screwed in to head. So you need to know the connection type.
- Brand: Koso and Trailtech have two different insulation designs on their lead - and they get air cooled effecting them differently. I believe Trailtech reads lower for this reason as it is more effected by the air cooling of the flywheel (there has been some writing on the trail tech in the past that Ginch posted somewhere on my thread).

2. Aluminum vs Iron cylinders. I have seen over 400° on my BGM aluminum (hey - I am a little aggressive on CM speed jetting...). My Polini would absolutely seize the rear wheal screeching at 311°. Just say no.

So if you were using a trail tech and it was under a spark plug - or worse - under a stud - your 360° is my ~410°.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8014
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:43 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Christopher - two main factors I've experienced.
1. Temp gauge brand and how it's connected.
- For those that screw directly in the head - 300° under plug = 350° directly screwed in to head. So you need to know the connection type.
- Brand: Koso and Trailtech have two different insulation designs on their lead - and they get air cooled effecting them differently. I believe Trailtech reads lower for this reason as it is more effected by the air cooling of the flywheel (there has been some writing on the trail tech in the past that Ginch posted somewhere on my thread).

2. Aluminum vs Iron cylinders. I have seen over 400° on my BGM aluminum (hey - I am a little aggressive on CM speed jetting...). My Polini would absolutely seize the rear wheal screeching at 311°. Just say no.

So if you were using a trail tech and it was under a spark plug - or worse - under a stud - your 360° is my ~410°.
Plus

timing

...and
timing
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1844
Location: california
Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:35 pm quote
^ what he said.
(I heard you twice the first time).
Timing can make you hotter - but it can also hide how hot you actually are.
Too much retard (don't say it) and you hide the heat in the ex. port.
Apparently...

Craig - my $.02:
Trouble with jetting is - you get great at it after you have done all the damage.
Then you forget half of what you learned the next time and re-do 1/2 the damage on your next effort.

My view - the hardest part isn't the adjusting - or even the starting point.
It's knowing which direction is making it better or worse.
Like a college fraternity party where the pledges get dropped in the woods.
With blindfolds.
Naked.

Anyhow -Here are a few of my fave indicators as a primer - off the top of my head - no particular order - if helpful as you restart.
- Choose your AC - that's the platform
- If you can't get splutter with less than a 130 main jet - move down to the next AC - your float bowl hole is limiting you. CAUTION.
- IK some like to tune in their SI's around a MJ130 - but I prefer a MJ120 target as the outcome.
- Reason: If an SI can be tuned to a 120MJ, then the float bowl hole is not the limiting factor. 130 is cutting it fine - in my experience.

As everyone always notes: start rich and walk down/ chop plugs. Sounds nice but I have a full time job. When I am out testing - I wanna blast to within 1 or maybe 2 sizes from what will end up being optimal on a single outing.
- To do this - I like to run it WOT under load - like 3rd on the hwy or up a long hill if you got one - for about a minute.
- Surprisingly - the plug will change color in as little as a minute of hard run like that - as long as it had a color before. DONT USE A NEW PLUG.
- But you gotta shut it down while you are blasting to get the best read on where your color is going - like at the top of the exit ramp - and coast down. This avoids repeated need to pull the plug and take it home and chop it in half like jeffery dammer. Just pull it and have a look/take a photo/change a jet/do it again. You'll get close quickly.
- Your watching for it to change away from black charcoal soot to toasted marshmallow. Again - this will knife edge - meaning it will just stay black charcoal sooty - then suddenly its time for s'mores.
- Dremel your bell mouth - so you can remove the jets from the top - and loctite the allen head holding the bell mouth on...
- Me: I tune with the air filter and box top off - until I come close. Then I put them back on and go one jet leaner (cause having it off makes it at least one jet richer). Not everyone likes that approach... but I find it speeds my process.
- If you use the same stretch of road each time - watch your temps and make note of where they settle. I find that I can go through many sizes of jets without change - but I will suddenly hit a tipping point. Can be helpful.
- Sound. When you have it nailed - it will make a sound when you twist it WOT that just never comes from any of your other jets. When I hear this - I stop paying attention to my temp gauge most of the time - cause I know I am on it.

Don't blow it up!
🙂

img_7302_47255.jpg
Leaving top off and cutting bell mouth back like this - I can get pretty close in about 30 minutes. Then there is a next round of fine tuning... of course...

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2504
Location: London UK
Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:05 am quote
One more pearl of wisdom: If you're not sure its rich or lean, can't decide, could go either way; it's lean, it's always lean. When you don't know what to do....upjet. Saves a lot of expense and misery.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1844
Location: california
Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:46 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
One more pearl of wisdom: If you're not sure its rich or lean, can't decide, could go either way; it's lean, it's always lean. When you don't know what to do....upjet. Saves a lot of expense and misery.
perhaps that should have been your first post on MY thread.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1844
Location: california
Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:46 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
One more pearl of wisdom: If you're not sure its rich or lean, can't decide, could go either way; it's lean, it's always lean. When you don't know what to do....upjet. Saves a lot of expense and misery.
perhaps that should have been your first post on MY thread.
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1257
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:13 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
One more pearl of wisdom: If you're not sure its rich or lean, can't decide, could go either way; it's lean, it's always lean. When you don't know what to do....upjet. Saves a lot of expense and misery.
And if you want to know what rich feels like, take out the main jet, and try running WOT.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8014
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:00 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Jack221 wrote:
One more pearl of wisdom: If you're not sure its rich or lean, can't decide, could go either way; it's lean, it's always lean. When you don't know what to do....upjet. Saves a lot of expense and misery.
perhaps that should have been your first post on MY thread.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1844
Location: california
Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:33 pm quote
Land of 10,000 Scoots Rally   vespa scooterwest scooter west Motorsport Scooters   Cool Ass scooter seat cover
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