New scooter tire break-in?
Post Reply    Forum -> General Discussion
Author Message
Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX150, GTS300, BV350, EN650
Joined: 26 Jul 2017
Posts: 5233
Location: Home of the Alamo
Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:38 am quote
I often read about breaking in new motorcycle tires but don't think I ever recall seeing anything regarding breaking in new scooter tires.

Is this because we don't tend to (normally) ride our scooters as aggressively (speed and cornering), or have I just been living under a rock?
Ossessionato
2006 Vespa GT (Rocket): 2005 Vespa GT (Razzo): 2007 Vespa GT (Vanessa): 2009 Yamaha Zuma 125 (Zoom): 2018 Yamaha Xmax (Max),
Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 4126
Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:54 am quote
Yes, We are all just a bunch of pussies.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16572
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:57 am quote
Munch
Pussies this way please.

Bill x
Molto Verboso
Triumph Street Scrambler 2018, Suzuki VanVan200 (sold), 2015 Sprint 125 (sold)
Joined: 12 Apr 2015
Posts: 1852
Location: Finland
Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:01 am quote
.. and back to the topic

The same applies to scoot tires, as my local service mechanic once said: no knee down curves with the brand new tires on the way home....

I've been told modern tires are not so sensitive to this as the old ones, and I've been told the reason too, but I've forgotten it already.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Modded Vespa 2017 GTV 300, BMW 2017 C650GT, Ural 2019 Gear Up
Joined: 21 May 2017
Posts: 5282
Location: Downtown Toronto
Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:50 am quote
RRider wrote:
.. and back to the topic

The same applies to scoot tires, as my local service mechanic once said: no knee down curves with the brand new tires on the way home....

I've been told modern tires are not so sensitive to this as the old ones, and I've been told the reason too, but I've forgotten it already.
First off, thanks for the laugh Bill

OK... back on subject. I believe the system currently used to remove the tires from the molds requires less scrubbing in than it used to. Something to do with the chemicals that they used to use left a residue that caused the tires to be a bit on the slippery side.
Ossessionato
2014 Commuter BV350(40,000)/2015 Scoot Life BV350(9,000)/2010 El Diablito SH150i(28,000)
Joined: 27 Dec 2013
Posts: 2181
Location: Orange Park Florida
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:25 pm quote
I scrub all my new tires. During takeoff I swerve to and fro up to 30 MPH and while slowing to a stop I do the same. After about 100 miles, done.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16572
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:32 pm quote
List
When I'm in town I like to turn off my ABS and ride like a man possessed right after it's rained soon during a run of sunny days so it's nice and greasy.

Oh yes.

Bill x
Ossessionato
2015 GTS 300 Super (Melody)
Joined: 22 Apr 2015
Posts: 2236
Location: Asbury Park, NJ
Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:39 pm quote
RRider wrote:
.. and back to the topic
"Seriously, leave me outta this..."

_IMG_000000_000000.jpg
Smile when you call me that...

Molto Verboso
2018 Vespa GTS 300 ABS- Bianco
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1773
Location: E. KY
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:49 am quote
I just took a quick look on google and Tire Rack has brief statements from several major tire mfg.'s saying to scrub in tires due to mold release lubricants. One states 500 miles which seems like a lawyer wrote it to me?
From my years working in a Goodyear tire plant: they used a slurry made from soapstone and silicones to spray on every green (uncured) tire as it left green tire inspection. They are shaped as open ended cylinders at that time prior to curing. They are tossed on racks to dry and moved to curing. The innerliner is not sprayed as it releases OK from the curing press bladder, the sticking issue is with the mold halves which contain the tread pattern of course and also the tiny vents which create to "tits" we all associate with a new tire or at least the remnant after they are trimmed.
I seriously doubt the mold release solution has changed over the years since I worked in that industry. In a tire plant soapstone slurries are used in all the machine contact aspects of processing rubber for some of the parts of a tire, like treads/sidewalls, exceptions coming to mind are the beads, hoops of wire banding coated with a sticky rubber compound and the plies which also must bind to the tire as it's built. Of course the tread inside is also sticky to bind to the ply carcass.
I clean my new tire treads with a tire compatible cleaner. In my shop that is the same cleaner as used to patch a tube or tire interliner and it's pretty mild stuff. Comes in qt. squirt cans.
"Break-in" to me is less accurate than "scrubbing off"?
Ossessionato
2015 GTS 300 Super (Melody)
Joined: 22 Apr 2015
Posts: 2236
Location: Asbury Park, NJ
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:23 pm quote
From Bibendum's Mouth, Sorta.
Well, having decided to have Melody's rear tire replaced as part of her 9k service last week (a tad cheaper that way), I was curious about the whole break-in thing as well, and decided a half-hour ago to get the word from the Mothership (Michelin, since I'm rolling on CityGrips). After the better part of twenty minutes on mind-numbing musical hold, someone came on the line and had a succinct answer: for the first 50-60 miles, simply resist the urge to play throttle-jockey. That's it. Otherwise, just ride as you normally do, minus any Superbike-wannabe moves (insofar as you can make such moves on a relatively small-displacement machine). No need to overthink this.
Addicted
2018 LIBERTY 150S
Joined: 26 Jul 2013
Posts: 747
Location: Ohio
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:58 pm quote
After fitting new City Grips to my Kymco, and fitting new Dunlops to my Forza - the mechanic told me to "take it easy on the ride home".

Which I thought was a bit overly cautious, considering my age and the scoots - but then he was used to dealing with youngsters riding off on their newly shod Ducati's.
Nevertheless, I rode home like a senior on a scooter and never had an issue.
If I ever do scrape something while riding my scooters it will be from getting too close to a city light post.

O.S.
Ossessionato
2006 Vespa GT (Rocket): 2005 Vespa GT (Razzo): 2007 Vespa GT (Vanessa): 2009 Yamaha Zuma 125 (Zoom): 2018 Yamaha Xmax (Max),
Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 4126
Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:19 am quote
I have put new tires on my scooters often.

I have never changed my riding style after a new tire was installed.

And never have I had a new tire slip on me.

My riding is a little aggressive, but I am not a knee dragger either.

I don’t think anyone here is at risk on new tires.

Bill
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16572
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:10 am quote
Gimp
I've been riding for 37 years now and I always take it easy on new tyres, especially those that come with a new bike that may not have a recognisable brand name on them.

A brand new tyre isn't going to have the grip of one that's been scrubbed in so don't expect them to have the adhesion of a "used" one.

Would you expect a new tyre to grip a wet road surface ? No you wouldn't and there's a reason for that.

New tyres have a sheen on them and I've often linked to shiny things to a smooth surface, like something that doesn't grip.

Take it easy at least for the first 100 miles I'd say.

A couple of weeks back I had City Grips fitted to the Benelli and as I was paying the Workshop Manager said to me - You've been riding a while so I'm not going to patronise you by suggesting that you take it easy on those new tyres.

This was the Workshop Manager in case you didn't get it.

Bill x
Sponsor
Granturismo 218
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 5353
Location: South Carolina
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:47 am quote
When you compare how a scooter handles to something like an R1, and the way most people ride scooters, it really is hard to push a scooter to the point this is an issue. Yes, it could be. No, it probably won't be.
Worry about something else.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16572
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:54 am quote
Biffa
No thanks.

I'd do what's been working for me as it's worked so far.

I'll take advice when it's good from people who know more than I but not when it's crap.

Here's my new GTS with it's glossy tyres and I'm going to ride it home in the rain like I did my 250.

Why have I fallen over ?

Bill x
Ossessionato
Kymco Like 200i (Sold)
Joined: 04 Jun 2012
Posts: 2477
Location: San Jose, CA
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:46 am quote
Every PTW I have ever replaced tires on was always returned with the cautionary tale of riding aggressively for the first 100 miles. I don't think I ever heeded that warning. I may have for the first 15 minutes, but after that old habits take over. I'm not advocating ignoring the warning. I just haven't found waiting a 100 miles to be necessary for me.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2010 Can Am Spyder RT-S, 2012 Honda NC700 DCT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 5291
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:55 am quote
Time for a poll;

Do you change your riding habits significantly when you get new tire(s)?
Have you ever crashed due to new tire slipperiness?

I do not.
I have not.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16572
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:58 am quote
Clips
Question 1 Yes

Question 2 No Because of Question 1.

Bill x
Molto Verboso
Triumph Street Scrambler 2018, Suzuki VanVan200 (sold), 2015 Sprint 125 (sold)
Joined: 12 Apr 2015
Posts: 1852
Location: Finland
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:47 am quote
It makes lot of sense what Kantuckid wrote.

Personally, I would find it a bit odd that also tire manufacturers warn about new tires being slippery if they weren't at all... can't see any point of doing that for other reasons, even liability.

So it's back to felines...agressive riding with a scoot and agressive riding with a street bike are two different things.....
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Modded Vespa 2017 GTV 300, BMW 2017 C650GT, Ural 2019 Gear Up
Joined: 21 May 2017
Posts: 5282
Location: Downtown Toronto
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:56 am quote
RRider wrote:
It makes lot of sense what Kantuckid wrote.

Personally, I would find it a bit odd that also tire manufacturers warn about new tires being slippery if they weren't at all... can't see any point of doing that for other reasons, even liability.

So it's back to felines...agressive riding with a scoot and agressive riding with a street bike are two different things.....
Sure but believe me lawyers will put in all sorts of things to protect against liability. You can still ride pretty aggressively with a scoot and you have less patch contact as a result of the tires being smaller. So while they are still slippery perhaps it is no longer the issue it used to be. Still better to be safe than sorry so I am a little more cautious. I find I am harder on the tires on my bigger bike than the Vespa but I think that has to do with how I brake going in to corners as with the BMW I dive the nose and use way more trail braking.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16572
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:19 pm quote
Simple
If a guy who fits tyres all day long fits my tyres and then gives me advice on said tyres I'm going to listen ?

Considering he fits them all day long and I don't , yeah I think I'll listen.

Does a brand new tyre grip as well as a scrubbed one ?

Bill x
Molto Verboso
2018 Vespa GTS 300 ABS- Bianco
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1773
Location: E. KY
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:10 pm quote
The name of this thread is a misnomer- they don't require "break-in" it's about if there's enough mold release to make them slick or not. IMO most are pretty clean that I see new now, but either way I clean my PTW tires when I mount them. Inside and out. For one great reason it causes me to take a serious look at the whole tire before I place my life in it's hands.
When the tires are cured the mold release compounds are not left on the mold but rather they are baked into the tire rubber other than minute amounts that remain on the outer surface. The new cured tire is not "cleaned" at the plant either. They do shave the mold vent tits, weight the tire for balance issues and Goodyear ran all passenger tires through a force variation machine. It had very sensitive load cell testing ability which was a means to check the tires carcass integrity for issues that could lead to failure. No pass, no sell. The weight variation decided if the tire met OEM specs or became an aftermarket tire or a reject. Cured tires with whitewalls got the sidewall grinding before the other tests. After curing all tires went through human eyeball final inspection, similar to green tire inspection-human eyes.
An interesting aspect, I think, about tires is that they are all handmade. On sophisticated machines but still yet, handmade.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16572
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:20 pm quote
Thrown
From a man who knows, why is it that most white wall tyres for scooters are pretty terrible grip wise ?

Are they made form a different compound or are they standard tyres with decoration ?

Thank you.

Bill x
Molto Verboso
2009 GTS 250, 2013 Buddy 125, 2014 Triumph Bonneville
Joined: 23 Apr 2016
Posts: 1712
Location: North Jersey
Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:04 pm quote
I know that whitewalls for cars are made by adding a layer of white rubber to the tire's sidewall during manufacture.

I also learned that rubber is naturally white, which is why early car tires were all white. Tires are now black because carbon black is added to the rubber during manufacturing. Carbon black makes the tire last 100% longer and up to 1000% stronger.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 5739
Location: New Zealand
Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:16 pm quote
Where’s the class action law suit for slippery new tyres?

And why don’t shoe salesman tell me to take it easy for the first 20km?
Ossessionato
2015 GTS 300 Super (Melody)
Joined: 22 Apr 2015
Posts: 2236
Location: Asbury Park, NJ
Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:25 pm quote
Re: Gimp
Bill Dog wrote:
A couple of weeks back I had City Grips fitted to the Benelli and as I was paying the Workshop Manager said to me - You've been riding a while so I'm not going to patronise you by suggesting that you take it easy on those new tyres.

This was the Workshop Manager in case you didn't get it.

Bill x
Bill: If I'm remembering correctly, you've only had the Benelli a short while. Did you replace the stock tires with CityGrips on account of preference, or did you manage to put more than a bit o' wear on the originals?
Molto Verboso
Triumph Street Scrambler 2018, Suzuki VanVan200 (sold), 2015 Sprint 125 (sold)
Joined: 12 Apr 2015
Posts: 1852
Location: Finland
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:23 pm quote
znomit wrote:
Where’s the class action law suit for slippery new tyres?

And why don’t shoe salesman tell me to take it easy for the first 20km?
Well, actually....

Herrenschuh078.jpg
OK, I cheated a bit - with these it's about leather soles...

eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16572
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:09 pm quote
Addition
The Benelli came with China's best - Cordials which are OK in the dry but truly awful in the wet so they had to go.

When I say OK I really mean that they are disconnected and vague.

City Grips have transformed the handling so I'm sticking with these.

Bill x
Sponsor
Granturismo 218
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 5353
Location: South Carolina
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:31 pm quote
znomit wrote:
Where’s the class action law suit for slippery new tyres?

you watch way too much American TV. I was watching a Finnish cop show, and the police occasionally had to explain to people that they could in fact go into someone's house without a warrant.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16572
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:03 pm quote
Lift
You must have watched way too much American TV to want to watch a Finnish one.

Bill x
Sponsor
Granturismo 218
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 5353
Location: South Carolina
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:09 pm quote
Re: Lift
Bill Dog wrote:
You must have watched way too much American TV to want to watch a Finnish one.

Bill x
Ha Ha Ha.... That's some funny stuff right there. You should see if Johnny Carson is hiring writers.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16572
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:18 pm quote
Click
I'm more of a Jay Leno kinda guy.

Bill x
Molto Verboso
2018 Vespa GTS 300 ABS- Bianco
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1773
Location: E. KY
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:47 am quote
Vintage1 wrote:
I know that whitewalls for cars are made by adding a layer of white rubber to the tire's sidewall during manufacture.

I also learned that rubber is naturally white, which is why early car tires were all white. Tires are now black because carbon black is added to the rubber during manufacturing. Carbon black makes the tire last 100% longer and up to 1000% stronger.
Me thinks you learned wrong? There is natural rubber as comes from the rubber tree. During the years I worked for Goodyear they were still using some natural rubber in the compounding of synthetic rubber-the BLACK stuff of which tires are made, mostly. That natural rubber had been stored in caves and during my time it was still from their WWII "stash and was dated on the huge bales. it's color and general appearance was much like the so-called desert boots many of us wore back when with "gum rubber soles"-almost exactly the same thing. Synthetic rubber is magically made in multi-story machines called Banbury Mills, which as I recall from a book as a British invention/inventor. The various components achieve high heat and tremendous pressures as the mill grinds and mixes the stuff then regurgitates it for the next steps of which there are several that add to the rubbers characteristics. The Banbury mill area is also called the "carbon black" area. Carbon black resembles black talcum powder and those who work in that area(at least back then) were eligible for the federal government Black lung program. As a skilled tradesman I was in there often but none of us were assigned there as an area shop job. I can assure anyone it's nasty ass stuff! I have several jobs that my hero Mike Rowe would have found premium material for his Dirty Jobs TV show.
Whitewalls are an entirely different product of rubber and not an example of the same stuff the tread, sidewalls , etc., are made from. It is a very resilient material and is rubber which goes through a special process that makes it white. IMO, it's derived directly from natural rubber in some way. We in skilled trades had a "secret mold" we used to make boat trailer roller/bumpers and used that rubber as it was very tough yet but kind to the boat hull too. It's true that the raised letters and whitewalls come from a grind off/in process. As for white walls being a lesser tire, that has zero to do with the whitewall itself. If it's crummy, it's simply crummy. One aspect of my 8,000 hours apprenticeship was that we were assigned in every process related department during our rotations. We rotated craftsman each 6 weeks along with all production areas and also spent ample time in engineering depts., including all of them. Interestingly, Michelin, one of Goodyears main competitors and then new to the USA with their Greenville, SC plant, denied acess to multiple plant areas to all but their highest level admin people while my fellow apprentices were in it all. Espionage told us about Michelin via the "tire plant grapeline" this and that about Michelin who then had a better process for radials , mostly from longer experience and the use of segmented cure molds which Goodyear had some years of developement to catch up on.
One known aspect of our (it was a new concept for Goodyear and union endorsed) apprenticeship was to build a cadre of skilled trades supervisors never before available from their previous sources, the railroad skilled trades, university technical degrees back then tended to be those who were destined to teach industrial arts. It seems higher education had not yet learned to crank out industry specif people as they now try to do. That was part of the force which got us a very broad OJT experience aside form our specific craft training. The classroom aspects and all the rest were actually more rigorous than what I found when I returned to college at age 30 to get a technical degree! The competition was fierce to get one of the 12 annual slots and testing and background came into selection. Many of us were already a skilled tradesman.
back to rubber & tires...
Molto Verboso
2009 GTS 250, 2013 Buddy 125, 2014 Triumph Bonneville
Joined: 23 Apr 2016
Posts: 1712
Location: North Jersey
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:58 am quote
Motovista wrote:
Bill Dog wrote:
You must have watched way too much American TV to want to watch a Finnish one.

Bill x
Ha Ha Ha.... That's some funny stuff right there. You should see if Johnny Carson is hiring writers.
Since he’s been dead almost 15 years I don’t think he’s hiring.
Molto Verboso
2018 Vespa GTS 300 ABS- Bianco
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1773
Location: E. KY
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:01 am quote
Motovista wrote:
znomit wrote:
Where’s the class action law suit for slippery new tyres?

you watch way too much American TV. I was watching a Finnish cop show, and the police occasionally had to explain to people that they could in fact go into someone's house without a warrant.
American TV is a vast wasteland of crap.
America's Got Talent has mostly become "has America got any talent"?
The grade levels are below kindergarten too?
We are utter denial now since we finished the Netflix Irish TV cop series called Jack Taylor!!! They are movie length episodes, 9 so far, with superb acting and vigorous plots and can be a bit gruesome as vivid crimes, etc. Filmed in Galway, Ireland area with interesting sets, all is based directly from the novelist Ken Bruen's books with episodes following a specific novel. Try it if like crime shows, you'll like it! The main character, Jack (well played by Iain Glen) varies from a cigarette smoking slob of a drunk to a humorous to a Sir Gallahad like James Bond, yet remains the frail alcoholic he is while meanwhile seducing some serious beautiful women. he alternately gets beat up or is beating up the boogerman.
A plus for us was that we could understand (and really enjoy the Irish "brogue"!) the dialogue as opposed to some British shows where it can be tough to know whats been said, depending on who's speaking.
Land of 10,000 Scoots Rally   vespa scooterwest scooter west Motorsport Scooters   AF1 Racing Vespa Austin
Post Reply    Forum -> General Discussion
[ Time: 0.3089s ][ Queries: 25 (0.0454s) ][ Debug on ]