2020 Vespa 300 GTS Super - brake question
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Member
2020 300 GTS Super
Joined: 12 Aug 2019
Posts: 9
Location: Harriman, TN
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:21 am quote
I have a brand new 300 GTS Super with about 50 miles on it and Iíve noticed that the front break lever makes a squishy noise when you pump the break lever several times - is this normal?

Also, the front break lever is not as firm as the rear break lever - is this normal?

5FFC2663-241D-45A7-BDB7-0B15A5AC5428.jpeg

Hooked
GTS 300ie Touring
Joined: 03 Jun 2018
Posts: 340
Location: Limassol, Cyprus
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:37 am quote
It sounds like you have air in your front brakes. It's easy enough to bleed the system and top-up with brake fluid, but I would take it back to the dealer you bought it from and let them do it. They must have missed it when they did their PDI checks. There should be no charge.
Hooked
GTS 300
Joined: 03 Jul 2019
Posts: 123
Location: lewisville , nc. 27023
Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:23 am quote
My 2020 GTS 300 has the same mushy front brake symptom.

I asked the same question over on the ADV forum .
One of the guy's there said he had taken his 2020 in for the first service and asked about it.

He was told that Piaggio/Vespa designed the system with more bias toward the back brake being more firm, to help prevent wheel lock up on the front with the ABS system. Due to more weight distribution towards the rear.

It sort of makes sense , but I would appreciate hearing from members on this forum as well. Before I accept that theory.

Thank you for any responses.
Enthusiast
GTS 300 Super
Joined: 04 Nov 2018
Posts: 67
Location: Wisconsin
Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:42 am quote
I haven't noticed that at all on my HPE. I'll pay particular attention next time I ride to see if I feel that brake lever difference.
Enthusiast
2019 Kymco Like 150, 2020 GTS 300 HPE
Joined: 08 May 2019
Posts: 52
Location: Nashville
Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:32 am quote
I haven't noticed this on my 2020 GTS either.
Member
2020 300 GTS Super
Joined: 12 Aug 2019
Posts: 9
Location: Harriman, TN
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:33 am quote
ďThey must have missed it when they did their PDI checks. There should be no charge.Ē

What is a PDI check?
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125/Kymco AK550 I don't care. You can quote me.
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 17251
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:35 am quote
Short
Pre Delivery Inspection.

Bill x
Member
'20 Supertech
Joined: 13 Jul 2019
Posts: 28
Location: New Orleans, LA
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:15 pm quote
I'm currently at 420miles and I have noticed my front brake is not as tight/firm as it was when I first purchased it. I will bring it up at my first service as well and see what they say. Are braided brake lines a thing for scooters?
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 37608
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:02 pm quote
DandyDoug wrote:
I asked the same question over on the ADV forum .
One of the guy's there said he had taken his 2020 in for the first service and asked about it.

He was told that Piaggio/Vespa designed the system with more bias toward the back brake being more firm, to help prevent wheel lock up on the front with the ABS system. Due to more weight distribution towards the rear.
Sorry, I call bollocks. With full front braking there is no weight at the rear - though a combination of ABS and ASR should prevent stoppies.
Hooked
GTS 300
Joined: 03 Jul 2019
Posts: 123
Location: lewisville , nc. 27023
Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:48 pm quote
I'm not sure who or what to believe about the braking issue.

I'll ride with it for a bit then if it does not improve to my liking I'll go old school and just bleed the dam thing.
It looks like a real PITA job taking plastic fiddly bits off just to get to the brake reservoir .
Enthusiast
2016 GTS 300
Joined: 09 Nov 2016
Posts: 94
Location: New Zealand
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:11 pm quote
On my GTS 300 the two brake levers feel about the same. But for the same hand pressure on the lever the rear brake works quite a bit better than the front.
I still mostly use the front brake to even out the wear between the two tyres so I can replace them both at the same time.
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Granturismo 218
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 5614
Location: South Carolina
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:06 pm quote
Can you slowly pull the brake lever all the way back to the grip? If you pull it hard, then let off and pull it hard again, does it go back closer to the grip?
Member
2020 Vespa GTS 300
Joined: 19 May 2019
Posts: 26
Location: Westchester, NY
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:47 am quote
My 2020 is similar. The front brake has more lever movement for the same effect than the rear. Given this is my first scooter, I thought maybe it's a Vespa thing, given all my other bikes have rear brake foot pedals rather than hand levers, I don't have a direct comparison.
Jim in NZ wrote:
On my GTS 300 the two brake levers feel about the same. But for the same hand pressure on the lever the rear brake works quite a bit better than the front.
I still mostly use the front brake to even out the wear between the two tyres so I can replace them both at the same time.
Molto Verboso
Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956 - Moto Guzzi Airone 250 Sport 1951
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 1792
Location: Latina (Italy)
Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:24 am quote
If it is under warranty, bring it to those who sold it
Member
2020 300 GTS Super
Joined: 12 Aug 2019
Posts: 9
Location: Harriman, TN
Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:28 am quote
Motovista wrote:
Can you slowly pull the brake lever all the way back to the grip? If you pull it hard, then let off and pull it hard again, does it go back closer to the grip?
Wonít go all the way back to the grip.

It seems to get closer to the grip by pulling it back multiple times. But still never touches the grip. It basically just feels more spongy than the rear brake.
Molto Verboso
Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956 - Moto Guzzi Airone 250 Sport 1951
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 1792
Location: Latina (Italy)
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:34 am quote
... there seems to be air in the circuit ...
Hooked
GTS 300
Joined: 03 Jul 2019
Posts: 123
Location: lewisville , nc. 27023
Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:25 pm quote
Motovista wrote:
Can you slowly pull the brake lever all the way back to the grip? If you pull it hard, then let off and pull it hard again, does it go back closer to the grip?
Mine does not go all the way back to the grip , either from pulling it hard,let off and pull hard again.
Distance from the grip is maybe a half inch. Kind of hard to get an accurate measurement .It just feels spongy ???

The rear is what I usually expect from at my experience as a former Burgman owner .
Hooked
GTS 300
Joined: 03 Jul 2019
Posts: 123
Location: lewisville , nc. 27023
Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:17 pm quote
I went out for a putt around town and some back roads today before it got Africa hot.
I was constantly testing the brakes both front and rear.

Front :
The lever never pulled all the way back to the grip. I tried several times to use it alone , was able to slow the bike ok , but never locked the front wheel.
Did not feel any ABS kick in .
The lever would at times feel like it started braking harder and more firmly than at other times ??
I'm still not convinced that a good bleed of the front system might make me feel better. So I'll get around to it soon.

Rear Brake:
The rear feels like it did on my Burgman .
I was never able to get the ABS to kick in on this Vespa.

At no time did I feel like the bike was going to lock up and skid either tire, but I did not feel ABS kick in like you get in a car where the pedal starts to pulsate.
Hooked
GTS 300
Joined: 03 Jul 2019
Posts: 123
Location: lewisville , nc. 27023
Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:08 am quote
This brake thing is getting more interesting everyday.

I posted the same question over on ADV ; since then several more have noticed this spongy/mushy thing with the front brakes.

One reported that he had been to AF1 in Tx. saw several 2019 and 2020 models. He tried the front brakes on them and said the 2019 models felt like they were what he was used to.
The 2020 models all had much more travel in the lever .

Then a friend just picked up his 2020 GTS 300 and said he noticed a lot more lever travel on the front , but the rear was normal.

Does anyone here have a way to contact Piaggio directly , or the USA distributor to ask about this front brake lever excessive lever travel and the spongy feel ??????????????
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1619
Location: Veria, Greece
Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:32 am quote
We also have many similar cases (spongy feeling and big travel) in Greece and Piaggio is actually investigating it. As a first step, they have send us the 2015 directive on how to do a full bleed on the system. Some dealers have replaced both brake master cylinders and the ABS unit under warranty, but the problem reappeared after a few hundred Kms...

Last update was that the problem is still under investigation and dealers were instructed to NOT replace parts under warranty since the problem reappears...
Member
Vespa GTS Super HPE
Joined: 12 Aug 2018
Posts: 14
Location: AZ, USA
Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:42 pm quote
Bought a new HPE GTS yesterday. All the 300ís at the dealer had mushy / numb front brake.

I think they bled mine after it was scary bad on the demo ride. Itís better now, but still not great.
Enthusiast
Joined: 09 Aug 2019
Posts: 94
Location: Aberdeenshire Scotland
Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:51 pm quote
Spongy lever can be a symptom of a failing ABS pump.

However... there's a difference between "feel" and actual braking effect.
How does it perform under emergency braking, is the stopping distance extended or does it pull up correctly?

Air in the system is a much bigger problem with ABS than without ABS, it can damage the ABS pump.
You don't want to have to pay for one of those, they are seriously expensive.
Piaggio won't want to pay for them either....

I would counsel against any attempt by an owner to bleed brakes on an ABS vehicle which is still under warranty, have the dealer inspect it.
Hooked
GTS 300
Joined: 03 Jul 2019
Posts: 123
Location: lewisville , nc. 27023
Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:50 pm quote
In my case returning to the selling dealer is a problem.

I bought it several hundred miles from home since the closest dealer tried to sell me a 2018 as a 2020 model . Long story, not worth going in to .

Not sure I want to go there for any type of service , especially warranty work.

Never faced this kind of a dilema before with any new bike/scooter.
Member
'20 Supertech
Joined: 13 Jul 2019
Posts: 28
Location: New Orleans, LA
Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:49 pm quote
I'm good friends with the family that owns my dealership. My bike is going in on Wednesday for its first service so I will have them take a look and contact Piaggio to see if they have heard anything. My bike was their first 2020 so this will be the dealer's first 2020 with any maintenance other than pdis.

This is my first bike so I don't have much to relate it to but my rear brake seems to be the softer of the two. I'll pay more attention next time I ride it. I am also getting a clicking sound at low speeds that sounds clutch/trans related. (again, my first vespa so I don't know how everything works yet... sorry!)
Member
GTS 300 HPE SS, PX150E, MotoVespa 150S
Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Posts: 47
Location: Romania
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:24 am quote
I have the same symptoms. GTS 300 SS HPE. It wasn't like this from the beginning. Started 3 weeks ago, when we had 35-38 celsius couple of days.....

Braking is ok but the feeling is strange...
Member
Vespa GTS Super HPE
Joined: 12 Aug 2018
Posts: 14
Location: AZ, USA
Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:05 pm quote
cr1st1turc1n wrote:
Braking is ok but the feeling is strange...
That about sums up my HPE. The manual states that braking should begin about 1/3 in as far as lever travel, and mine does, but it feels numb and not at all crisp.

The bike stops okay, but feedback is nil.

I heard that the ABS pump is different this year, and the brakes feel different as a result.
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2221
Location: Starfleet Command, South Eastern UK HQ
Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:30 pm quote
Re: 2020 Vespa 300 GTS Super - brake question
rahler wrote:
I have a brand new 300 GTS Super with about 50 miles on it and Iíve noticed that the front break lever makes a squishy noise when you pump the break lever several times - is this normal?

Also, the front break lever is not as firm as the rear break lever - is this normal?
Speaking as a bike technician, there should be no mushy feel to the brake, no squishy sounds during brake operation, just a firm silent brake action that gives good braking with good fairly solid lever feel.

It does sound from what folks are posting that there may be an issue at the factory causing incorrect bleeding of the front brakes or an issue with the abs units allowing air into the system, or faulty seals being fitted. This has happened on other makes of bike too. It's easy for a few hundred bikes to pass out of the factory before something like this gets notices.

As jimc says, what DandyDoug has been told by an ADV forum about brake bias is totally incorrect concerning this matter
Member
GTS 300 HPE SS, PX150E, MotoVespa 150S
Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Posts: 47
Location: Romania
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:58 pm quote
Re: 2020 Vespa 300 GTS Super - brake question
Stromrider wrote:
rahler wrote:
I have a brand new 300 GTS Super with about 50 miles on it and Iíve noticed that the front break lever makes a squishy noise when you pump the break lever several times - is this normal?

Also, the front break lever is not as firm as the rear break lever - is this normal?
Speaking as a bike technician, there should be no mushy feel to the brake, no squishy sounds during brake operation, just a firm silent brake action that gives good braking with good fairly solid lever feel.

It does sound from what folks are posting that there may be an issue at the factory causing incorrect bleeding of the front brakes or an issue with the abs units allowing air into the system, or faulty seals being fitted. This has happened on other makes of bike too. It's easy for a few hundred bikes to pass out of the factory before something like this gets notices.

As jimc says, what DandyDoug has been told by an ADV forum about brake bias is totally incorrect concerning this matter
Totally agreed. Brakes should be firm. However, bike starts to do this after 4000km, not from the beginning. I was happy in the beginning by the acceleration and firm brakes ))

Now I am braking more with the rear because of the feeling. And is instinctually...
Hooked
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
Posts: 488
Location: FI PKS
Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:53 pm quote
Old thread helped me a couple of days ago. No more spongy front brake. I too have 2019 HPE. I didn't want to use zip tie but a strap. Pressure on over night.

GTS 300 ABS front brake finally sorted
Member
GTS 300 HPE SS, PX150E, MotoVespa 150S
Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Posts: 47
Location: Romania
Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:21 pm quote
Partanen wrote:
Old thread helped me a couple of days ago. No more spongy front brake. I too have 2019 HPE. I didn't want to use zip tie but a strap. Pressure on over night.

GTS 300 ABS front brake finally sorted
Thanks. it really worked. Now is firm. I am curious for how long.


Anyway, not a good image on the new one...brake "failing"
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2221
Location: Starfleet Command, South Eastern UK HQ
Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:31 pm quote
This just proves the brake system has air in it. This could be due to a fluid leak that has developed over the 4k you have covered or the air has been in the system on the abs pump side that was never bleed out properly at the factory. It then has worked it's way into the main system. Using the "strap up the lever" method, it's probable gone now as the air will have exited through the secondary fluid return port in the master cylinder. If it's a fluid leak you have, it'll come back.
Member
2020 300 GTS Super
Joined: 12 Aug 2019
Posts: 9
Location: Harriman, TN
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:48 pm quote
Partanen wrote:
Old thread helped me a couple of days ago. No more spongy front brake. I too have 2019 HPE. I didn't want to use zip tie but a strap. Pressure on over night.

GTS 300 ABS front brake finally sorted
Ok - I am going to try this - will let you know tomorrow how it worked! Thanks for the tip!!! Beats the hell out of taking it back to the dealer 140 miles away!!!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190, Primavera
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 5939
Location: New Zealand
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:11 pm quote
I canít see a need for using your brakes. If you want to slow down so often why not just buy a smaller slower scooter? Or a bicycle?
Hooked
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
Posts: 488
Location: FI PKS
Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:09 pm quote
I was not sure if front brake was as it should when I finally got chance to test ride. But then I made a couple of harsh brakings on gravel to actuate abs pump. Now I think it is close to what should be. At least much better than during first 1400km which I have ridden from new.
Member
GTS 300 HPE SS, PX150E, MotoVespa 150S
Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Posts: 47
Location: Romania
Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:10 am quote
Stromrider wrote:
This just proves the brake system has air in it. This could be due to a fluid leak that has developed over the 4k you have covered or the air has been in the system on the abs pump side that was never bleed out properly at the factory. It then has worked it's way into the main system. Using the "strap up the lever" method, it's probable gone now as the air will have exited through the secondary fluid return port in the master cylinder. If it's a fluid leak you have, it'll come back.
It isn't a fluid leak, as it the level is full loking into the "window". I left it with a strap yesterday night for 10 hours and it's a firm again but not the same level as new or the rear break. I will strap it again tonight, to see if I will have any improvement....

A question though. Strapping can produce damage on the brake system?
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 37608
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:41 am quote
cr1st1turc1n wrote:
Stromrider wrote:
This just proves the brake system has air in it. This could be due to a fluid leak that has developed over the 4k you have covered or the air has been in the system on the abs pump side that was never bleed out properly at the factory. It then has worked it's way into the main system. Using the "strap up the lever" method, it's probable gone now as the air will have exited through the secondary fluid return port in the master cylinder. If it's a fluid leak you have, it'll come back.
It isn't a fluid leak, as it the level is full loking into the "window". I left it with a strap yesterday night for 10 hours and it's a firm again but not the same level as new or the rear break. I will strap it again tonight, to see if I will have any improvement....

A question though. Strapping can produce damage on the brake system?
No.
Hooked
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
Posts: 488
Location: FI PKS
Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:37 pm quote
cr1st1turc1n wrote:
A question though. Strapping can produce damage on the brake system?
If it does there was something wrong at the beginning. You don't have to go crazy though. As he tells this video at about 10 min.

https://youtu.be/kvIxxgvllLA

Last edited by Partanen on Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:39 am; edited 1 time in total
Member
2020 300 GTS Super
Joined: 12 Aug 2019
Posts: 9
Location: Harriman, TN
Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:12 am quote
rahler wrote:
Partanen wrote:
Old thread helped me a couple of days ago. No more spongy front brake. I too have 2019 HPE. I didn't want to use zip tie but a strap. Pressure on over night.

GTS 300 ABS front brake finally sorted
Ok - I am going to try this - will let you know tomorrow how it worked! Thanks for the tip!!! Beats the hell out of taking it back to the dealer 140 miles away!!!
Definitely much better!
Member
GTS 300 HPE SS, PX150E, MotoVespa 150S
Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Posts: 47
Location: Romania
Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:19 am quote
Partanen wrote:
cr1st1turc1n wrote:
A question though. Strapping can produce damage on the brake system?
If it does there was something wrong at the beginning. You don't have to go crazy though. As he tells this video at about 10 min.

Youtube video not working
Hooked
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
Posts: 488
Location: FI PKS
Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:42 am quote
Now it should work. It is how to bleed motorcycle ABS brakes but I found it interesting.

Try this:

https://youtu.be/kvIxxgvllLA
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