Are Chinese motorcycles any good?
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Addicted
Bashan 150, CF Moto Fashion 250
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:25 am quote
This came into my email last night and given the discussions about Royal Alloy I felt it was mildly relevant. As the only owner of a Benelli I welcome Bill Dog's comments.

The writers comments are brutally honest.

https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/are-chinese-motorcycles-any-good?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=08/17/2019_CT&utm_term=Common%20Tread%20%7C%20Combined
Molto Verboso
Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956 - Moto Guzzi Airone 250 Sport 1951
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:29 am quote
...to be or not to be...
The welds (I mean) are a bit of a pain ... but those of the 1980s Japanese bikes weren't much better. On the question of plastic materials there would also be a question for Piaggio but this is solvable. It has been said many times, everything passes from quality control
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Modded Vespa 2017 GTV 300, BMW 2017 C650GT, Ural 2019 Gear Up
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Location: Downtown Toronto
Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:41 am quote
Oh, I'm not touching this one... Last time the subject of Chinese quality came up let's just say the conversation got interesting. Quality goods can be made in China and are. However if the price is too good to believe then you should think twice. Hell I just spent about $36,000 on a bike made in Russia...
Hooked
Joined: 21 Apr 2014
Posts: 391

Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:52 am quote
Quote:
Unlike CSC and some others in this space that sell direct to consumers, Benelli uses a standard dealer model.
CSC Motorcycles

Peace Sports is somewhat of an "oddball" . . selling some dirt bikes online at brozz250.com . . videos . . Facebook
Hooked
2019 Piaggio Liberty 150
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:06 am quote
Lets smack that beehive! I kinda look at it like this, the price point. If it seems to good to be true, it usually is. I tell people who are looking for a scooter to buy a used Honda, Yamaha or any other brand name used vs. a new $700 OTD China scooter. Of course, they usually dont listen, buy a junk quality new China scooter for $700 and it quickly becomes unreliable. Meanwhile, the tatty looking 2004 Honda Metro my friend bought for $400 is still running like a top. Again, its not the country that manufactured the product in question, its the quality thats behind it. Quality cost money. I love when someone comes right outta the gate bashing everything China only to look where their beloved phone is made.
Hooked
1980 Honda Twinstar and 2004 Yamaha V Star
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:28 am quote
I have been fascinated by the Chinese bikes for some time. It seems that the quality of the Chinee bikes has gone up a long way in the past ten year. Of course ten years ago just about anyone could buy a container of bikes cheap and sell them on Ebay, and they seem to have always imported the cheapest bikes that they could find. There are however some dealers that have been in business for the past ten years or so. These dealers have raised their prices for brands of Chinese bikes that have been recognized as the better quality brands. (The less recognized brands still sell for less than $1,000 delivered to your door.)

The point that I am working toward is that the price of a bike is an indicator of the quality of the bike. Through the concept of the law of supply and demand, the higher quality of the bike the more demand there will be for the bike, resulting in a higher price. The price determined through supply and demand is some sort of an average of all the good, bad, and indifferent opinions as to the quality of a bike, so it should be a relatively accurate indicator of the quality of a bike.
Molto Verboso
2009 GTS 250, 2013 Buddy 125, 2014 Triumph Bonneville
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:11 am quote
Just use common sense. That $700 Chinese scooter is probably junk.

Any company can contract with the Chinese to build anything. It's the quality that's spec'd out by the customer that matters. China can build anything you want them to, to any price and quality point.

IMO, if you want to save some money on a brand new scooter, look at scooters built in Taiwan. If you don't need brand new, but 'like new' will do, you can save a bunch also buying a used Vespa. There's thousands of them out there with less than 200 miles on the ODO. Kinda like the used Harley market.
Hooked
Joined: 21 Apr 2014
Posts: 391

Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:39 am quote
Vintage1 wrote:
That $700 Chinese scooter is probably junk.
But that is EXACTLY what cannabis-infused Joe and Jane 6-pack are seeking!

Hard to change the "don't want to get a motorcycle endorsement" mentality, which will probably always remain a significant element of the first-scooter market, and the most frequent first-scooter regret.
Enthusiast
Joined: 09 Aug 2019
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Location: Aberdeenshire Scotland
Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:07 am quote
Yes and no.
Some are good, some are junk.
I've been involved in helping run a small fleet of cheaper than cheap 50cc chinese scooters.
They proved far more reliable than I expected them to be.
Riding one down a long bendy hill at silly speeds was hilarious fun.
Would I buy one? If it was all I could afford then yes.
Would I buy a Royal Alloy 200 for four grand?
Not a chance.
Hooked
Joined: 21 Apr 2014
Posts: 391

Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:24 am quote
Yespa wrote:
I've been involved in helping run a small fleet of cheaper than cheap 50cc chinese scooters. They proved far more reliable than I expected them to be.
Znen?
Hooked
Joined: 07 Jan 2018
Posts: 188

Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:39 am quote
I know the topic specifies motorcycles, and I can only speak to scooters. But I've torn down bikes from China, Japan, Taiwan, Italy, and hybrids therein (like the Piaggio Fly). I generally agree with the motorcycle article when translated over to Scooterville. My observations:

First off... Taiwan is NOT China. I would definitely buy a Taiwan-made bike before I got one from China. The plastics, the fit/finish, the thought put into lasting componentry are obvious in the Taiwan and HK makers, and while most of the Chinese drivetrains are fairly solid, you will ALWAYS be chasing something on a Chinese bike, even the more recent ones. The Chinese bikes have lots of cut corners, thin materials and pot metal frames that are heavier than necessary due to construction and design.

That said- they are made to a price point, and if you're fairly savvy you can extract 5000 cheap miles out of most Chinese scoots if you're wrench-inclined. The biggest problems that I see in the China bikes are, since they're bought at a low price point, no care went into initial assembly and less goes into the bikes by the first owner. They're cheap so they're abused, left to weather, and not maintained. This exaggerates the initial quality issues.

BUT! Plastics aside, there are very few mechanical problems that crop upon Chinese scooters which can't be solved for under $100. Parts are cheap and plentiful and relatively standard. Contrast this to the Hondas, Piaggios and even Taiwan makers which can kill you on components that cost 10x what the Chinese bike's equivalent runs, and you're in a different world. Sure they break. But you can fix them without a bank loan.

One of the more interesting bikes I've built up was in the aforementioned Piaggio "Fly" series. At a lower (but not Chinese-low) price point than the Vespa LX50/LX150 with which it shares the subframe, electronics and drivetrain, the Fly 50/150 is air-cooled and assembled/skinned in China. The result is a very sturdy, reliable bike which isn't incredibly attractive as it's clad in power-wheels quality Chinese tupperware. They've gotten better though, as the fuel-injected versions of the last few years have stepped up their body cladding game. With its "Chitalia" dual origin story however, the Fly loses what makes the Chinese bikes so attractive- the initial bare-bones price point AND the cost of upkeep, as it's still a Piaggio under the cheesy cheap outerwear. That said- I still consider the Fly a massive bargain on the used market when you can find one that hasn't been abused.

The trend in the linked article is becoming more evident, apparently, in the scooter market. Chinese makers are approximating Taiwanese quality as their price points creep up and quality is demanded, and at the same time, Honda is manufacturing more to price points and sending production outside Japan. I was NOT impressed with some of the more recent Honda scoot products from a fit/finish standpoint, and would take a Taiwanese maker such as PGO/Genuine over them in a heartbeat. We own two Buddy 125s and would put them up against any Modern Vespa product from an engineering standpoint, with only a few areas where the Italian bike is more competent and better designed.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125/Kymco AK550 I don't care. You can quote me.
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:40 am quote
Answer
Do you mind if I pile in ?

Bill x
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:42 am quote
"First off... Taiwan is NOT China."

For how long though? They may be soon, weather they like it or not
Hooked
Joined: 07 Jan 2018
Posts: 188

Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:50 am quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
"First off... Taiwan is NOT China."

For how long though? They may be soon, weather they like it or not
I went as far as to design a sticker for the Buddy that says that. Because when people ask me where it's made, I say Taiwan, and then they say "Oh. China".

taiwan is taiwan2.jpg



Last edited by Blipvert on Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:51 am; edited 1 time in total
Addicted
Bashan 150, CF Moto Fashion 250
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:50 am quote
Re: Answer
Bill Dog wrote:
Do you mind if I pile in ?

Bill x
I was hoping as a new Benelli owner that you would.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125/Kymco AK550 I don't care. You can quote me.
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:07 am quote
Training Wheels
This is going to be a bit scatter gun so please forgive me.

When you consider what you're getting with the Benelli TNT125 ( 135) in the USA it's amazing value for money.

For just $2500 you will basically forget the fact that you have two other bikes and invent any excuse to take it out just because it's so much fun.

So is it any good ? Yes it's brilliant as stops you taking yourself seriously and takes you back to when you were 17 and leaning how to ride.

Once you see yourself in a shop window and laugh at your own reflection all of your hang ups about riding something so petit just collapse and you get on with the act of just enjoying it.

So with that dealt with lets talk about the quality of the machine.

More coming...........
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Modded Vespa 2017 GTV 300, BMW 2017 C650GT, Ural 2019 Gear Up
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:11 am quote
Re: Answer
Bill Dog wrote:
Do you mind if I pile in ?

Bill x
Please do. Actually you have experience with a bunch of bikes from all over including smaller displacement models so your input will be interesting.

Me? Yeah I'm a bit of a snob I guess. I generally try and get the best of everything at least how I see it. So I have a Vespa, BMW and Ural.

Taiwan is definitely not China and they produce some good solid bikes. Relations between the 2 is to say the least interesting and if anything ever really does go down it may not be pretty. Taiwan is no push over despite its size and is very well armed. ( https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R44996.pdf ) . China at the moment has it's hands tied with Hong Kong. I have a few friends who's families came to Canada after Hong Kong went back to the Chinese.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125/Kymco AK550 I don't care. You can quote me.
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:20 am quote
Give
It's engine is a 125 cc twin spark 4 valve and produces 11hp at 7000 rpm which is around 50 mph and it doesn't seem to mind reving above that.

The build quality and finish of the chassis,engine,suspension- front and back , tail, tank, seat and wheels are all very good but more akin to the finish of an Italian bike than a Japanese or German one.

However the clocks, front fender and finish of the head stock look like they have built to a price, plus the generic mirrors and switches look like they have pulled out of a parts bin.

Now when I say that I'm not saying that they are below an acceptable quality but they look like just enough rather than dynamic.

More coming........

Last edited by Bill Dog on Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:53 am; edited 1 time in total
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:21 am quote
Re: Answer
Harbinger wrote:
Me? Yeah I'm a bit of a snob I guess. I generally try and get the best of everything at least how I see it. So I have a Vespa, BMW and Ural.

Taiwan is definitely not China
I was going to tease you about a Russian made anything being the best, but no one else makes anything close so Ural is the best

And on this one, "Taiwan is definitely not China"
Have been watching the news on what's going on in Hong Kong? if they drop, Taiwan is next if I am not wrong. So sym could be chinese soon too.
Molto Verboso
Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956 - Moto Guzzi Airone 250 Sport 1951
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:23 am quote
I had a Kymco quad for two years, used only in off-road. A great quad comparable at least to the Polaris. The same but with different bodywork is made for Honda and Kawasaki. What is the point? Kymko makes scooters even for BMW and Kawasaki and who else I don't know. But if BMW, which is not a small factory, decides that you can do and have German quality through a Taiwanese factory, that means something! But in Taiwan there is a capitalist system and a mentality (excuse the political parenthesis) and this makes the difference, we don't turn aroundIt produces well and makes quality especially if the designer and the maker of the works is satisfied with what it is, the final product is also the birth of happy people and participate in the intimacy of what they achieve.
Hooked
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:30 am quote
Not going to lie... looking forward to riding one of these soon:

http://www.genuinescooters.com/g400c.html
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125/Kymco AK550 I don't care. You can quote me.
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:32 am quote
Happy
And the best thing about is that it's made me enjoy riding so much I really don't care where it came from.

It rides and handles so well you can throw it around with abandon and it isn't phased by any of it.

The suspension is stiff without be harsh and unfeeling.

The motor and gearbox are a joy to use in country lanes as well as in traffic but I don't suggest spending too much time on the freeway as you are invisible to trucks and you don't have enough power to overtake anything.

If you run out of room or talent the font brake will stop you dead if needed.

Rather than using ABS Benelli have fitted linked brakes. The front is especially powerful.

It's faster, cheaper and has more gears plus more power than a Grom and
Kawasaki Z125 Pro so it wasn't a hard decision to make but in the long term the TNT will probably be worth less.

More ?

Bill x

Last edited by Bill Dog on Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:43 am quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
Harbinger wrote:
Me? Yeah I'm a bit of a snob I guess. I generally try and get the best of everything at least how I see it. So I have a Vespa, BMW and Ural.

Taiwan is definitely not China
I was going to tease you about a Russian made anything being the best, but no one else makes anything close so Ural is the best

And on this one, "Taiwan is definitely not China"
Have been watching the news on what's going on in Hong Kong? if they drop, Taiwan is next if I am not wrong. So sym could be chinese soon too.
Ha! I knew someone would pick up on the Russia thing. Yes, Ural is the only game in town so by definition..... Actually the reviews of the 2019's are very positive. Also why it's so damn hard to get one. Since new ownership they have been improving the bike in leaps and bounds.

China... Yeah it could become a bit of a powder keg so let's hope not.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Modded Vespa 2017 GTV 300, BMW 2017 C650GT, Ural 2019 Gear Up
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:46 am quote
Re: Happy
Bill Dog wrote:
And the best thing about is that it's made me enjoy riding so much I really don't care where it came from.


More ?

Bill x
Sure, keep it coming.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125/Kymco AK550 I don't care. You can quote me.
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:47 am quote
Down two points
There are a couple of things that are worth noting on the negative side.

The exhaust ( which will probably be replaced ) looks like it's been though one winter already and there has been a warranty claim on the plastic in the center of the tank but this will be replaced when Italy comes back off holiday in September.

All they wanted was photographs of the section that failed.

If you get chance to look at a Sinnis Terrain the build quality is very similar but you have to remind yourself that it's $2500.

Any questions ?

Bill x
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125/Kymco AK550 I don't care. You can quote me.
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 17174
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:52 am quote
Divert
Now if you want real build quality the Kymco is as good if not better than any Japanese scooter that I've seen but it's quite a serious bike.

I mean business like.

Think of a Taiwanese T - Max and you're pretty there.

But for the joy and the sheer amount of fun that I've experienced the Benelli beats it hands down.

It's hilarious and I love riding it.

Oh, change the tyres !

Bill x
Ossessionato
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:54 am quote
Vintage1 wrote:
Any company can contract with the Chinese to build anything. It's the quality that's spec'd out by the customer that matters. China can build anything you want them to, to any price and quality point.

Yes, thatís entirely correct.
Want a cheap bike shaped object for half the going rate? Get it made in China.
Want a first class product? Get it made in China and pay more.

Iíve seen a couple of these in the metal and they look superb. Iíd happily buy one.
https://www.fbmondial.com/
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125/Kymco AK550 I don't care. You can quote me.
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:02 pm quote
Fun fun fun
Eat at Joe's

IMG_2363.JPG

Enthusiast
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:33 pm quote
tortoise wrote:
Yespa wrote:
I've been involved in helping run a small fleet of cheaper than cheap 50cc chinese scooters. They proved far more reliable than I expected them to be.
Znen?
Think it was Baotian Scout sold through and branded as Direct Bikes.

Just like the one in this video:

eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125/Kymco AK550 I don't care. You can quote me.
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 17174
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:38 pm quote
See
Do the decent thing and post the youtube link so that people using Chrome can still watch it.
Enthusiast
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Location: Aberdeenshire Scotland
Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:41 pm quote
Blipvert wrote:
First off... Taiwan is NOT China.
Yes and no.
Taiwan is the name of a group of islands.
The country located on these islands is called the Republic of China.

https://www.taiwan.gov.tw/about.php
Enthusiast
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Location: Aberdeenshire Scotland
Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:47 pm quote
Re: See
Bill Dog wrote:
Do the decent thing and post the youtube link so that people using Chrome can still watch it.
If you click quote, you should see it is a youtube link....?

EDIT2: nope that's screwed up, its not what I entered in the compose box, I ctrl+V pasted the Youtube url, but that's not what has been saved.

Anywho, I'll try this...

<iframe></iframe>

EDIT: nope, that no worky either...

Try again... this is the Youtube indentifier: WZNMjbak8qs
Molto Verboso
Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956 - Moto Guzzi Airone 250 Sport 1951
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:08 pm quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_Republic_of_China (Taiwan)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China (The difference lies in the term "popular")
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125/Kymco AK550 I don't care. You can quote me.
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 17174
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:34 pm quote
Kick
Actually if you're a Deliveroo deliverer, a learner or you want something quite cheap to commute on I'd say that the Benelli is ideal.

So far there havn't been any significant mechanical issues plus there's a bundle of after markets stuff out there if you're not happy with what you've bought.

It's really hard not to ride it with a smile.

You can quote me.

Bill x
Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190, Primavera
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:01 pm quote
The cheap POS generic scooter that parks next to me at work had bits falling off it and a rusty exhaust after three months. Thing is it hasnít hugely deteriorated since then. 12,000 km on it now.
Molto Verboso
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:46 pm quote
Re: Happy
Sometimes it's the low price that makes you suspect there is a scam behind, sometimes you don't think that the prices of others are so high that the scam is the high price. Don't you think Bill?
Bill Dog wrote:
More ?

Bill x
...i think it's a little small for your size ... the rest is ok.
PS: the lack of ABS you realize when you go to collide, late of course ...
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125/Kymco AK550 I don't care. You can quote me.
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 17174
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:05 pm quote
Litter
It has linked brakes rather than ABS which just work fine and the front brake is really good for a bike that size.

I can't really feel the rear brake coming on at all.

The dimensions of it is are just fine as I'm over compensating for an over sized penis.

You see in town and along the country lanes something small and lively is perfect as a sports bike or a touring bike can't really get into it's stride.

I think the longest amount of time I've ridden on it is 3 hours mostly on fast 2 lane roads and twisty lanes.

So why aren't more smaller capacity bikes just smaller ?

Bill x

IMG-20190722-WA0005.jpg

Molto Verboso
Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956 - Moto Guzzi Airone 250 Sport 1951
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:35 pm quote
... it is the reference to the penis that i cannot correlate with the braking distances ...
Incidentally, my scooter also has UBS and i know what you are talking about but it also has ABS, so i could say that there is penis and accessories too.
... and yes ... the Tricity is not bigger than your Benelli and I'm at least as big as you (1.86 m. x 130 kg.)
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125/Kymco AK550 I don't care. You can quote me.
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:41 pm quote
Explain
I'm talking about the size of the bike relative to the size of my penis rather than the brakes.

It beats having a big bike and a small penis.

Bill x
Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190, Primavera
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:43 pm quote
Anatomy
Bill, where do your knees end up when you're riding? It's it as silly looking as I imagine (which is very very silly indeed).
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