Are Chinese motorcycles any good?
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Ossessionato
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:17 am quote
Yeah, me too Bill! And I've stopped buying VAG group cars. I've had three new cars in the last 2yrs, two of which have been VAG Skoda cars. Normally they are great cars but they have to use VW engines. I had major issues with the 1.2 turbo unit in my first one, I rejected it under the consumer rights act, and the second replacement that I thought would be fine had major gearbox and clutch issues (it had the DSG dry clutch auto gearbox) so I got rid of that and went to Citroen of all cars. I've had that one from new for 14 months and covered 31,000 miles so far. Not a single problem with it. Smooth, powerful, economical. No rattles. It has the 3 cylinder turbo Puretech engine which is a real gem matched to the EAT6 torque converter autobox. At last, no issues!

Sorry folks, off topic!
Molto Verboso
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:45 am quote
With the FCA - PSA merger, it is to be hoped that there will be an improvement on Fiat automatic speed changes; the Dual Logic Fiat is a real "bin" ... I had it (and others I know) and we are still swearing. End OT.
Ossessionato
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:15 am quote
Atilio, yes I've heard it's not the greatest box.

Many manufacturers are going back to fluid transmission (torque converter auto boxes). These are lighter, smaller, and just as efficient as DSG/DCT boxes. They are cheaper to produce too and far more reliable over big miles. They even give better fuel economy than manual gearboxes regarding economy quite often. It's a case of the computers know better than you when to change gears! lol Oh no...we're being taken over by machines!!
Molto Verboso
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:03 am quote
... on small powers even the ECVT speed change ... is not evil; Ford - Mazda still mounts it. The small fluid speed change (torque converter) is mounted on the new Suzuki Jimny 1.5. (My degree is a mechanical expert - Perito tecnico - for industrial machines and engines and I have the license for steam engines)
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:36 am quote
Give
Yes but the CVT's on small Toyota's and Nissan's are awful.

You'd expect more from both these days.

Bill x
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:46 am quote
The CVT on my Honda CR-V is awesomely smooth.
Molto Verboso
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:30 am quote
The modern scooters are all CVTs, if with them it works well... with cars why not?
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:35 am quote
Nick
Because cars with smaller engines that use CVT's rely on revs to power them.

The Toyota revs like crazy and the Nissan is unrefined.

Bill x
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:36 am quote
Attila wrote:
The modern scooters are all CVTs, if with them it works well... with cars why not?
Honestly I swear the reason almost all motorcycles is still CVT is tradition. For some bikes like one that goes off road gears do make sense but for your typical commuter or weekend warrior maybe not so much. I've talked to the guys at Motorrad and basically they say with the newer bikes you don't need to really know shit about shifting gears it's that easy.
Molto Verboso
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:46 am quote
Harbinger wrote:
Attila wrote:
The modern scooters are all CVTs, if with them it works well... with cars why not?
Honestly I swear the reason almost all motorcycles is still CVT is tradition. For some bikes like one that goes off road gears do make sense but for your typical commuter or weekend warrior maybe not so much. I've talked to the guys at Motorrad and basically they say with the newer bikes you don't need to really know shit about shifting gears it's that easy.
Excuse me, Harb, but then why in the US almost all cars have automatic transmission? Or is it not so ..? In Europe there would be more reasons for the automatic changeover considering the small routes, the big cities but with short streets and congested traffic ...
Obviously a sequential gearbox does not waste power and consumes less than a "sliding" or hydraulic fluid speed change but is more complicated as maintenance.
(ouch ... the technical terms the translator out distorted make the speech bad... ooops, sorry)

Last edited by Attila on Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:51 am quote
Me me me
Because in general engines in the USA are larger and it's easier to have an auto mated to a larger engine than a manual.

Oh Harbinger is Canadian not American.

Bill x
Ossessionato
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:55 am quote
Attila wrote:
The modern scooters are all CVTs, if with them it works well... with cars why not?
Yeah they work well on bikes, especially scooters, and they even work ok in many cars. But the technology for scooters is vastly different to cars. The issue for many car CVT systems is that they wear out more quickly compared to other traditional auto boxes (torque converter boxes and even DCT/DSG). The Honda CVT gearboxes are typical of what happens to CVT's. Over here in Europe Honda has been slated as making the worst CVT gearboxes. They wear out quickly and are very expensive to repair. The internet carries many stories of woe!

I'm a Honda/Nissan trained tech and the Jazz CVT and Civic CVT has a life span of anywhere between 60,000 and 80,000 miles before it's worn out although this can vary a lot depending how it's driven. The early Toyota Prius cars had a CVT which wore out before it should in most folks view. The latest ones are better but we don't know yet how long they will last.

The problem for all CVT boxes in cars and indeed for bikes is that the belts wear out. In a bike it's pretty easy to change a belt before it breaks. In a car it's a nightmare and is totally uneconomic. So manufacturers let you drive your CVT car until the belt breaks. There are usually no recommended replacement times for the belts. This is because of the expense. So once it's let you down at the roadside you face a huge bill usually for a new gearbox as when the belt breaks it can often take out bearings as well as other important bits inside the box.

On top of the belt issue, there is the matter of the electro hydraulics that controls the belts and pulleys. This gives the car CVT a slight advantage over our bike mechanical CVT, but it wears out and is expensive to replace.

The closest thing to a car CVT in a scooter is the Suzuki Burgman 650 with the ECVT system. It has a life expectancy of between 40,000 and 80,000 miles but the belt can break at anytime. My works 650 lasted for just 45,000 miles and when the belt broke it totally destroyed the gearbox. I rebuilt it taking 3 days and 2,500. That was 8 years ago so it's more money to do the job now and if you paid a dealer you can add another 1500 to that.

Many car manufacturers are moving away from CVT for mainline cars in favour of Torque Converter gearboxes because they are more robust and just as, and even more efficient than manual gearboxes.

So you pays you money and make your choice!

Last edited by Stromrider on Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:36 pm; edited 6 times in total
Molto Verboso
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:56 am quote
Re: Me me me
Bill Dog wrote:
Because in general engines in the USA are larger and it's easier to have an auto mated to a larger engine than a manual.

Oh Harbinger is Canadian not American.

Bill x
...stai guardando il capello, comunque abbastanza vicino da saperlo...almeno credo.

... you're looking at the hair, it's still close enough to know ... at least i think.
Molto Verboso
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:03 am quote
Stromrider wrote:
Attila wrote:
The modern scooters are all CVTs, if with them it works well... with cars why not?
Yeah they work well on bikes, especially scooters. But the technology for scooters is vastly different to cars. The problem with many car CVT systems is that they wear out very quickly compared to other traditional auto boxes (torque converter boxes and even DCT/DSG). The Honda CVT gearboxes are typical of what happens to CVT's. Over here in Europe Honda has been slated as making the worst CVT gearboxes. They wear out so quickly and are very expensive to repair.

I'm a Honda/Nissan trained tech and the Jazz CVT and Civic CVT has a life of anywhere between 50,000 and 80,000 miles before it's worn out although this can vary. The early Toyota Prius cars had a dreadful CVT also which wore out hugely fast. The latest ones are better but we don't know yet how long they will last.

The problem for all CVT boxes in cars and indeed for bikes is that the belts wear out. In a bike it's pretty easy to change a belt before it breaks. In a car it's a nightmare and is totally uneconomic. So manufacturers let you drive your CVT car until the belt breaks. There are usually no recommended replacement times for the belts. This is because of the expense. So once it's let you down at the roadside you face a huge bill usually for a new gearbox as when the belt breaks it takes out bearings as well as other important bits inside the box.

On top of the belt issue, there is the matter of the electro hydraulics that controls the belts and pulleys. This gives the car CVT a slight advantage ov er our bike mechanical CVT, but it wears out and is expensive to replace.

The closest thing to a car CVT in a scooter is the Suzuki Burgman 650 with the ECVT system. It has a life expectancy of between 40,000 and 80,000 miles but the belt can break at anytime. My works 650 lasted for just 45,000 miles and when the belt broke it totally destroyed the gearbox. I rebuilt it taking 3 days and 2,500. That was 8 years ago so it's more money to do the job now and if you paid a dealer you can add another 1500 to that.

Many car manufacturers are moving away from CVT for mainline cars in favour of Torque Converter gearboxes because they are more robust and just as and even more efficient than manual gearboxes.

So you pays you money and make your choice!
In short, if it does not come out ... if you fall to the right there are sharks and if you fall to the left there are wolves, great dilemma.
The Dual Logic Fiat robot costs (including replacement of everything) about 1000 and its duration varies from about 40,000 km up, generally no more than 60,000 km; beyond it's all luck (big ass is said in Italy).
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:19 am quote
Bits and Bobs
So the Peugeot Citroen Group have merged with Chrysler Fiat which I'm guessing is a good thing but I'm interested to know what's going to happen to the Vauxhall factory in the UK and the Opel Factory in Germany that were bought from General Motors a little while back.

Neither brand is anything special and neither made a profit which is why GM dumped them for a song.

So are we going to see Peugeot Citroen start making their own brands in these factories if they can't get them to make money ?

I doubt that Fiat or Chryslers will be made there but French cars ?

I can see it happening.

Bill x
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:42 am quote
Re: Bits and Bobs
Bill Dog wrote:
So the Peugeot Citroen Group have merged with Chrysler Fiat which I'm guessing is a good thing but I'm interested to know what's going to happen to the Vauxhall factory in the UK and the Opel Factory in Germany that were bought from General Motors a little while back.

Neither brand is anything special and neither made a profit which is why GM dumped them for a song.

So are we going to see Peugeot Citroen start making their own brands in these factories if they can't get them to make money ?

I doubt that Fiat or Chryslers will be made there but French cars ?

I can see it happening.

Bill x
What car do you have ..?
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:44 am quote
Rock
Toyota Aygo.

Bill x
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:59 am quote
Re: Me me me
Bill Dog wrote:
Oh Harbinger is Canadian not American.
Nah, even worse than that.

Ossessionato
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:51 pm quote
Re: Rock
Bill Dog wrote:
Toyota Aygo.

Bill x
The Aygo is a pretty good car. It's a Citroen C1 rebadged as a Toyota, but you know that. Toyota buys large numbers of Citroen cars and vans, rebadging them and selling them in Japan and Asia, and of course some European countries. It's amazing how incestuous the car manufacturing business is. Citroen even went in with Nissan to develop the latest range of Torque Converter gear boxes with Aisin, the Japanese transmission company. And very good are those gearboxes.

To stay on topic, I'm thinking of putting a Chinese motorcycle in the boot of my car!
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:16 pm quote
Up
The Toyota Aygo is a brilliant car but it certainly is not a rebadged Citroen.

The Peugeot 107, Citroen C1 and and Aygo were all built in the same factory Kolin and the Czech Republic as a joint venture by all 3 manufacturers from 2005 to 2014 and it's bodywork differs quite a bit from the French cars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Aygo

Bill x
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:28 am quote
Re: Me me me
znomit wrote:
Bill Dog wrote:
Oh Harbinger is Canadian not American.
Nah, even worse than that.

To want to be picky he lives on the American continent and is geographically American as I am European; the British are British, geographically and politically and so are they but we forget that we are all under the same sky and we breathe the same air ... sigh.
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:30 am quote
Go
Toronto is in Canada which makes him American.

Yeah, that makes total sense.

Bill x
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:40 am quote
Aygo is nice, maybe a little small, and Bill seems very tall to see him on Benelli but Toyota is a solid brand; now to return to the topic, I compare the production of Japanese cars that when it started was like the Chinese today. It took many years but they found their space. We close the topic and reopen it in ten years (hoping to be there again) and I think we can talk about it again; finally I believe that we have said everything by now. The end?
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:48 am quote
Re: Me me me
Attila wrote:
Bill Dog wrote:
Because in general engines in the USA are larger and it's easier to have an auto mated to a larger engine than a manual.

Oh Harbinger is Canadian not American.

Bill x
...stai guardando il capello, comunque abbastanza vicino da saperlo...almeno credo.

... you're looking at the hair, it's still close enough to know ... at least i think.
Canada is actually it's own country and while we share similarities with the US there are a LOT of differences as well. It would be like me calling an Italian French... you know it's close enough so it must be practically the same.
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:31 am quote
Attila wrote:
To want to be picky he lives on the American continent and is geographically American as I am European; the British are British, geographically and politically and so are they but we forget that we are all under the same sky and we breathe the same air ... sigh.
To be precise, there is no "American continent". There are two continents in the Western Hemisphere - North America and South America. Yes, Canada and Mexico are within North America, as is the United States.
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:40 am quote
... don't worry, in about twenty years we'll all be chinese ...
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:06 pm quote
Attila wrote:
... don't worry, in about twenty years we'll all be chinese ...
I like Chinese.

eeee-bip
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:19 am quote
Hijack
Actually since I had that link pipe fitted to my Chinese built Italian bike I havn't ridden it.

It was stupidly loud and I felt a bit self conscious as it barked all my the way home.

Oh the youth of today.

Bill x

Last edited by Bill Dog on Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:50 am quote
... maybe if you buy a Japanese scooter produced in Thailand you would feel better ... anyway less embarrassed.
Molto Verboso
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:53 am quote
Harbinger wrote:
Attila wrote:
... don't worry, in about twenty years we'll all be chinese ...
I like Chinese.

Twenty years ago or more, would you have ever thought that you would have bought a motorcycle produced in Russia?
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:17 am quote
Ask
What do you mean by embarrassed ?

Ural Motorcycles have been produced since 1940 so what's your point ?

Bill x
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:40 am quote
Re: Ask
Bill Dog wrote:
What do you mean by embarrassed ?

Ural Motorcycles have been produced since 1940 so what's your point ?

Bill x
I'm a bit confused about that as well.

Also how exactly are we all going to be Chinese in 20 years? Positive upvote so plenty here seem to agree but looking around Toronto I see people of all colours and nationalities, honestly a real melting pot.. Maybe in Italy there is some kind of fear the Chinese will take over?
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:37 pm quote
List
Embarrassed because the bike is a little compact or because of the noise it's making because it's neither I can tell you.

Or because its Chinese and not Taiwanese ? I'm really confused.

Bill x
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:55 pm quote
Plus
Urals have been making bikes after buying and reverse engineering BMW R71's in 1941 for your info and great product they make.

For you to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMZ-Ural

Bill x
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:02 pm quote
Re: Plus
Bill Dog wrote:
Urals have been making bikes after buying and reverse engineering BMW R71's in 1941 for your info and great product they make.

For you to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMZ-Ural

Bill x
Smuggling them in may be more apt I don't think the German's wanted the Russian's getting a hold of the technology. Or mind you by extension the Italians I guess...
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:34 pm quote
I state that it is not a racist speech, not really ...
Here in Italy the Chinese "are doing their shopping", they buy everything and everything; ok and here I stop otherwise the topic becomes delicate, even political. If there is one thing that Italians do not like it is that others take possession of the cultural identity to make goods for sale.
Look at these websites:

https://www.generalcessioni.com/vendere-ai-cinesi/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAtf_tBRDtARIsAIbAKe13J11tYC0FTv3neeaaEAA3R42_VpHIGF15l0SD1ATCI3glhwYUeG4aAkZ3EALw_wcB

https://www.vendereaicinesi.it/

https://www.venderefacileaicinesi.com/

http://www.cinesichecomprano.com/

https://www.comevendereaicinesi.com/

https://www.affittoevendosubitoaicinesi.it/

Selling and buying are recurrent words and it is a river in full ...
Well ... they scare me, I prefer to live in dignified poverty in my home rather than give in to easy flattery and live in the house of others. What was the topic title like? Oh yes, honestly the Chinese products are starting to be good, I recognize it but they kill the economy of western countries ... we can't compete.
The problem is not the goodness of the product, it never has been, it is the consequences that it brings ...
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:37 pm quote
List
They were sold to the Russians through the Swedes would you believe.

Anyway I'll always do my best to argue with the facts and anything that I've gleaned from my own personal experience so I choose not to generalise and make stuff up to throw out there as truth when it's mostly conjecture.

Call me old fashioned.

Bill x
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:48 pm quote
Re: Plus
Harbinger wrote:
Bill Dog wrote:
Urals have been making bikes after buying and reverse engineering BMW R71's in 1941 for your info and great product they make.

For you to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMZ-Ural

Bill x
Smuggling them in may be more apt I don't think the German's wanted the Russian's getting a hold of the technology. Or mind you by extension the Italians I guess...
It's not the Russians that worry me ... they just copy a little and improve something ... no sir. Ural survived because it had no competitors at the level of typology, an example: Vespa Viatka, the competitor (best) was there and the copy was bad from the beginning and finally abandoned. The further away we got from the bad influence of the USSR, the better the products (slightly) ... MZ and other brands from Eastern countries under Soviet rule were also technically freer.
The Chinese also had / have their Ural, Chang-Jiang:
https://www.dueruote.it/news/moto-scooter/2011/08/21/sidecar-made-in-cina-copiando-un-epoca.html
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:49 pm quote
Tic Toc
I'm not going to look at any of those websites.

Your'e steering this down a political route and I'm not following.

Shall we keep this about Chinese Motorcycles and are they any good ?

Bill x
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:51 pm quote
Attila wrote:
I state that it is not a racist speech, not really ...
Here in Italy the Chinese "are doing their shopping", they buy everything and everything; ok and here I stop otherwise the topic becomes delicate, even political. If there is one thing that Italians do not like it is that others take possession of the cultural identity to make goods for sale.
Look at these websites:

https://www.generalcessioni.com/vendere-ai-cinesi/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAtf_tBRDtARIsAIbAKe13J11tYC0FTv3neeaaEAA3R42_VpHIGF15l0SD1ATCI3glhwYUeG4aAkZ3EALw_wcB

https://www.vendereaicinesi.it/

https://www.venderefacileaicinesi.com/

http://www.cinesichecomprano.com/

https://www.comevendereaicinesi.com/

https://www.affittoevendosubitoaicinesi.it/

Selling and buying are recurrent words and it is a river in full ...
Well ... they scare me, I prefer to live in dignified poverty in my home rather than give in to easy flattery and live in the house of others. What was the topic title like? Oh yes, honestly the Chinese products are starting to be good, I recognize it but they kill the economy of western countries ... we can't compete.
The problem is not the goodness of the product, it never has been, it is the consequences that it brings ...
Italy has made it's own bed and needs to lie in it. You like to use Italian expressions, this in one of ours. YES, Chinese money is buying up a LOT of property globally, not just there. Not sure what the "solution" is but things have a way of self regulating over time. In parts of Canada I know they are raising taxes on non Canadian buyers of property but it only stops so much. Money talks and if someone wants to spend it.... You kind of did make this political as I can't say much without this getting political I prefer to avoid that. This thread has always been touchy. Italy is to some extent though responsible for it's own economy and needs to dig itself out of the rut it has dug for itself. On the bright side we would not have the Vespa we love if not for some poor decisions made in the late 30's and 40's in Italy.... If things went differently they would still be making airplanes in Pontedera . I'm very glad that instead we have Vespa.
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