Reliability of 2020 HPE
Post Reply    Forum -> General Discussion Previous123Next
Author Message
Molto Verboso
Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956 - Moto Guzzi Airone 250 Sport 1951
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 1234
Location: Latina (Italy)
Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:27 am quote
... I thought it was only the english castles that had ghosts, now in a post i discover that even Vespas can be infested ... brrrrr ...!
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16753
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:31 am quote
Gata
The reason that the price of your traded car is less than the market price is being it's going to "the trade" or straight to auction where it has to be pitched at a price where it's going to make money for the business.

If you don't like that hit sell it privately and have to tolerate a whole bunch of tire kickers who are going to waste your time.

You'll have more money but my God it will exhaust you.

If it's the same brand as your new car the business has to figure out just how much money it can spend on it before it goes on the forecourt even if it's still under warranty so the gap is usually what you think it's worth and what they will pay for it.

Bill x
Molto Verboso
Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956 - Moto Guzzi Airone 250 Sport 1951
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 1234
Location: Latina (Italy)
Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:35 am quote
... I knew you were around the corner ...
Sponsor
Granturismo 218
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 5449
Location: South Carolina
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:42 am quote
Re: Clip
Bill Dog wrote:
Land Rovers blow their engines up all the time. I know because I worked for them as well as Porsche, BMW and VW and their units aren't bullet proof either.

Bill x
Didn't Land Rover use an aluminum V-8 for a long time that they got from Buick back in the 1960s? They might still be using it, for all I know.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16753
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:55 am quote
Bong
Correct that man.

I was used in many forms and I think they only stopped using it maybe 5 years ago.

I think it ended up in various sizes in TVR's

The original engine was built in 1965. Let me check.

Correction 1961 in the USA and 1967 in the UK and originally a 3.5 litre.

Last officially used in 2006 in the Bowler Wildcat at 5,0 litres.

Bill x
Enthusiast
GTS300IE
Joined: 01 Mar 2017
Posts: 59
Location: Hove, UK, EU
Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:47 pm quote
We’ve had our Fiat Doblo for 16 years, now. Rattles a bit now, though. Mind, my Et4 lasted for 15 years ....
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16753
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:15 pm quote
Prime
Actually there's one thing that I cannot forgive Fiat for, The Multipla.

download (1).jpeg

Sponsor
Granturismo 218
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 5449
Location: South Carolina
Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:33 pm quote
It looks like a cartoon character.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16753
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:23 pm quote
Tarts
I thank that's the nicest thing that anyone could say about it.

Bill x
Molto Verboso
Triumph Street Scrambler 2018, Suzuki VanVan200 (sold), 2015 Sprint 125 (sold)
Joined: 12 Apr 2015
Posts: 1895
Location: Finland
Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:19 am quote
Re: Clip
Motovista wrote:
Bill Dog wrote:
Land Rovers blow their engines up all the time. I know because I worked for them as well as Porsche, BMW and VW and their units aren't bullet proof either.

Bill x
Didn't Land Rover use an aluminum V-8 for a long time that they got from Buick back in the 1960s? They might still be using it, for all I know.
Far, far away off topic, but just have to add a piece of Scandinavian car history: there are many Volvo Amazons both in Sweden and Finland that has the 3,5 V8 engine taken from old Rovers... apparently it is a physically compact V8 and fits relatively nicely into the engine bay of these old Volvos.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16753
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:24 am quote
Duff
It's the diesel 3.2 's that are mostly knocking out their bottom bearings.

Bill x
Molto Verboso
Gina, 1965 Vespa 180SS, Bella,1968 Vespa 150 Super, (Both NZ new Airco assembled), Francesca, 2006 Vespa LX150, Sofia, 2007 Vespa GT200
Joined: 21 Jan 2015
Posts: 1213
Location: Hamilton, NZ
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:28 am quote
Re: Prime
Bill Dog wrote:
Actually there's one thing that I cannot forgive Fiat for, The Multipla.
Unfortunately the body was designed by two teams, one above the waist line and one below. More unfortunately they didn't talk to each other.
BUT - practical as all hell for a family in Italy.
You may guess I like them; mainly because of their quirkiness.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 5791
Location: New Zealand
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:52 am quote
Re: Prime
pigletpilot wrote:
Bill Dog wrote:
Actually there's one thing that I cannot forgive Fiat for, The Multipla.
Unfortunately the body was designed by two teams, one above the waist line and one below. More unfortunately they didn't talk to each other.
BUT - practical as all hell for a family in Italy.
You may guess I like them; mainly because of their quirkiness.
Reminiscent of the ugliest ducati, which performs incredibly well too

e225819ea0293bd854cf088946fc5493.jpg

eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16753
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:20 am quote
Plonk
You see, I really like that.

It looks a bit ahead of its time.

It has presence.

Bill x
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2059
Location: Not really sure but I think somewhere down South, in the engineering dept at Starfleet's UK HQ
Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:43 am quote
Re: Clip
Bill Dog wrote:
Build quality and reliability equates to value plus mileage and condition of course.

I'm still not convinced that there's a connection between Piaggio and Ducati.

Ducati's build quality went up after Audi bought them.

As for Audi buying Ducati for their technology that's just wrong. It's an opinion. I know this because I've worked for Audi. If it was true Audi's would have Desmodromic Valves and they don't

Audi's technical abilities go way beyond Ducati's as they have about 7 other brands resources to call on. So when was the last time you saw a V Twin A1 ?


Bill x
Audi bought Ducati for lots of reasons but incredibly, for it's technology. It was stated by Audi at the time of purchase.

Ducati is in possession of some very interesting patents regarding future engine technology. No one can produce that technology unless they own the patents. Ducati doesn't have the resources to quickly advance that tech either. Now Audi does and they will be free to use them.

Regarding Piaggio's ownership of Ducati Bill, I'm thinking I have that wrong. I was thinking about the offer Piaggio made for the company and the fact that Piaggio already owned Moto Guzzi. It's Moto Guzzi that is where it is today because of Paiggio.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16753
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:49 am quote
Mush
Not according to this they didn't.

The technology isn't transferable.

https://www.wired.com/2012/04/audi-buys-ducati/

Bill x
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2059
Location: Not really sure but I think somewhere down South, in the engineering dept at Starfleet's UK HQ
Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:11 am quote
Re: Mush
Bill Dog wrote:
Not according to this they didn't.

The technology isn't transferable.

https://www.wired.com/2012/04/audi-buys-ducati/

Bill x
Not strictly true Bill. And neither is some of the article. But, an interesting article for the public to read.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16753
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:02 am quote
Excel
This article actually suggests that Ducati would benefit from technology from Audi not the other way round.

It also mentions the Desmodromic Valve Patent but as this was 7 years ago and nothing has been applied to the road cars I think it's a red herring.

The VW group wanted a Motorrad and they got it.

They almost sold it a little while ago but changed their minds because it's now making money.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/motorbikes/9213571/Audi-buys-Ducati-for-708-million.html

Bill x
Ossessionato
2020 MP3 Sport 500 HPE ABS ASR
Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 3921
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora Reina de los Ángeles sobre el Río Porciúncula
Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:11 pm quote
Re: Clip
RRider wrote:
Motovista wrote:
Bill Dog wrote:
Land Rovers blow their engines up all the time. I know because I worked for them as well as Porsche, BMW and VW and their units aren't bullet proof either.

Bill x
Didn't Land Rover use an aluminum V-8 for a long time that they got from Buick back in the 1960s? They might still be using it, for all I know.
Far, far away off topic, but just have to add a piece of Scandinavian car history: there are many Volvo Amazons both in Sweden and Finland that has the 3,5 V8 engine taken from old Rovers... apparently it is a physically compact V8 and fits relatively nicely into the engine bay of these old Volvos.
My favorite application of this engine was in the Sunbeam Alpine Tiger.

How they got that V8 into it, I'll never know.

1965. I was 17 years old. Boy did I want one of these!

Sunbeam Alpine Tiger.jpg
1965 Sunbeam Alpine Tiger



Last edited by mpfrank on Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16753
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:13 pm quote
Force
A very big shoehorn.

Bill x
Sponsor
Granturismo 218
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 5449
Location: South Carolina
Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:06 pm quote
Re: Clip
mpfrank wrote:
RRider wrote:
Motovista wrote:
Bill Dog wrote:
Land Rovers blow their engines up all the time. I know because I worked for them as well as Porsche, BMW and VW and their units aren't bullet proof either.

Bill x
Didn't Land Rover use an aluminum V-8 for a long time that they got from Buick back in the 1960s? They might still be using it, for all I know.
Far, far away off topic, but just have to add a piece of Scandinavian car history: there are many Volvo Amazons both in Sweden and Finland that has the 3,5 V8 engine taken from old Rovers... apparently it is a physically compact V8 and fits relatively nicely into the engine bay of these old Volvos.
My favorite application of this engine was in the Sunbeam Alpine Tiger.

How they got that V8 into it, I'll never know.

1965. I was 17 years old. Boy did I want one of these!
I thought they used the Ford 289 motor. Drive one, and your hot feet will tell you where they put most of the engine.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16753
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:25 pm quote
Raise
I once had a partner who believed that the motor dealerships where ripping people off by charging for servicing within the first 3 years of the vehicles life.

Now I've said some dumb shit but I really didn't have an answer for that.

Whhaaat ? Was the only thing I could manage.

She was a diabetic so I initially put it down to a low sugar level but no, she actually meant it.

But it was well and truly beaten by a JLR customer whose Range Rover Sport blew it's transmission but as she hadn't kept up her service record due to not being able to afford it so she had to pay the £17,000 for a new one.

Hell, it would have blown anyway but this way we didn't pay for it.

More coming....
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2059
Location: Not really sure but I think somewhere down South, in the engineering dept at Starfleet's UK HQ
Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:11 am quote
My Range Rover Sport, new when I bought it went through one engine, two transmissions, 4 drive shafts, rear door hinges, and a bonnet and roof respray. I had the car 10 months, 5 of those months were spent in the garage. Not keen to ever experience that again. They are difficult vehicle to work on too.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16753
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:25 am quote
List
Yeah that's pretty much standard.

It was one of the reasons I left. I just got exhausted dealing with customers cars whose cars had failed and then failed again, probably for the same reason.

A few months later 2 salesman left because they were getting pressure to sell cars that they had no faith in.

The running joke was " Above and Beyond" ( The Warranty Dept )

It's a really strange event where customers have had a really bad experience with a brand or model, but the very next thing they buy is exactly the same brand or model in the belief that it's going to be different.

No, it's going to be exactly the same.

Bill x
Member
GTS 300 HPE
Joined: 08 Sep 2019
Posts: 48
Location: Washington State, USA
Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:58 pm quote
Stromrider wrote:
In fact, the JD Power surveys are conducted by survey to targeted customers who own the cars over a period of time which encompasses cars that are new and cars that are 2,3 & 4 years old. I've been part of several surveys over a 14 year period. This has encompassed several makes of car that my wife and I own/ed.

The main statistic that everyone is interested in initially is the number of faults a car experiences during it's first year. JD counts these as the number of faults per 100 cars. It's the one the manufacturers are most interested in. These are listed by model not just by brand.

Fiat are indeed a very reliable brand...still Bill. The JD survey showing a car near or at the bottom of the list doesn't necessarily mean a car in unreliable. But it's a measure of how every manufacturer improves each year. So you get a leap frogging of manufacturers and position changing each year. Mercedes is nearly always at the bottom of the survey, as is BMW but their car are very reliable. My last Mercedes was totally reliable but lots of things on it broke. It never let me down even though I covered upwards of 30,000 miles a year in it. The sort of things that broke were stupid electrical components, switches, seat adjustment, steering rack broke and was fixed by garage in just 1hr, but it kept going always. BMW is the same, things break on them, as they do on Fiat. Fiat have always usually been a midway car in the list. But Fiat has lacked money of late and has been slow to introduce new ways of building and keeping up with it's competitors resulting in it slipping down the list. But actual reliability is still ok. You have to know how to interpret the stats.
I appreciate your point about the survey rankings not being a reliable indicator of vehicle reliability (!) over the long term. That said, I think that your description of a vehicle having multiple things go wrong with it and still be a "reliable" car is a little problematic. In your definition of reliable, I am assuming you are limiting the evaluation to whether or not the engine will start, the vehicle will drive from point a to b and back. My own personal interpretation of the term reliable would be more all encompassing than that. Having to fix something on my new car, whatever that thing is (like in the jd power list) is indeed a reliability evaluation of the car, even if its just a common electrical component. Indeed, if the thing I fix doesn't come up until year n, if it isn't a normal wear and tear thing like tires and year n isn't the normal end of life for that component, I would still consider it a ding on the reliability evaluation. How long it takes to fix is something that might ease or increase my frustration but is irrelevant to the determination of reliability.

That's just my two cents.

Michele

PS Waves to all as this is my first post.
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2059
Location: Not really sure but I think somewhere down South, in the engineering dept at Starfleet's UK HQ
Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:02 am quote
Hi Michele, and a very warm welcome to the site. It's a great place to be.

Yes I do agree with what you say. The thread has gone well off topic and is debating several aspects of vehicle reliability. Actualy these can be some of the best threads if the op doesn't disapprove.

I've worked in the motor trade, and engine design and development world for over 33 years and am just making a point that just because a vehicle is down at the bottom of the JD Power rating list doesn't mean it breaks down all the time. In the case of Landrover, it does! They do break down all the time with very major issues quite often.

Regarding the studies, it depends what part of it you look at as to what information you can draw from it. If you see what I mean. A broken radio for example is way different to a broken crankshaft etc etc. And on many brands it's simple little things that cause them a bad rating. So any breakage or fault will land the vehicle further down the ratings and quite rightly so. No one wants to buy a car that has things break on it.

Regarding Fiat the manufacturer I was talking about earlier. They don't have good build quality which lets them down, but engines and gearboxes are pretty much bullet proof. So for example, the bodywork is poor and fittings used are not great so it gets rattles and shakes over bumps. These are counted as faults if the owner goes back to the dealer as he should, to get them fixed. These sorts of faults make up a considerable number of issues that Fiat gets, not break downs or actual breakages. That's why they are not at the bottom of most study lists but Landrover, Mercedes and BMW are most years. It's an interesting subject.
Molto Verboso
Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956 - Moto Guzzi Airone 250 Sport 1951
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 1234
Location: Latina (Italy)
Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:52 am quote
Stromrider wrote:
My Range Rover Sport, new when I bought it went through one engine, two transmissions, 4 drive shafts, rear door hinges, and a bonnet and roof respray. I had the car 10 months, 5 of those months were spent in the garage. Not keen to ever experience that again. They are difficult vehicle to work on too.
... here looking in the barns there are also other things ....



My 500 X 1.6 E Torq (model also sold in U.S.A.) has four years and 60,000 km and is fueled (aftermarket) with LPG and is fine.

eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16753
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:56 am quote
Claim
Oh look.

There's a Fiat that's still running.

Bill x
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2059
Location: Not really sure but I think somewhere down South, in the engineering dept at Starfleet's UK HQ
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:07 pm quote
My wife bought a Fiat Uno, a Punto & we also bought a Fiat Stilo. All for private use and separate to our company vehicles most of which have always been Fiat with some Ford vehicles.

The Uno covered about 65000 miles in 5 yrs. The Punto 105000 miles and the Stilo now owned by a neighbour, 140000 miles. None of them ever broke down but the door handle on the driver's door broke off the outside of the Punto! Aside from that minor inconvenience, no trouble from any of them. Our Fiat vans were the same covering huge mileages without any issues. The Fords we had on the company were a constant trouble with very often major problems which included major corrosion issues. I kid you not. Strange but true.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16753
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:20 pm quote
Example
Yes, everyone has a Grandad who smoked 40 Capstan Full Strength a day and lived until he was 94.

I bought a 136,000 mile Ford Escort Azure for £400 and ran it for another 5000 miles then sold it for £1000.

That's my example.

Bill x
Ossessionato
LXV 150 3v ie. Midnight Blue (Sold)
Joined: 06 Dec 2010
Posts: 2866
Location: Bangkok
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:32 pm quote
My father smoke Old Holborn but not his whole life.
Sponsor
Granturismo 218
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 5449
Location: South Carolina
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:33 pm quote
It's like the Internet Research Agency is trying to convince us all to buy Italian cars, or cars made with the assistance of Fiat. There is a company, I can't remember the name, but it begins with an Л and has two а's and possibly a д in it's name, that makes cars that are not only derived from, but even more reliable than Fiats.

When you add up all the miles driven in all these amazingly reliable cars, it's hard to believe Uber hasn't been around forever.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16753
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:06 pm quote
Biffa
Lancia ?

So pretty much all Uber's are Prius or Priusi.

I think that says it all.

Bill x
Sponsor
Granturismo 218
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 5449
Location: South Carolina
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:10 pm quote
Re: Biffa
Bill Dog wrote:
Lancia ?

So pretty much all Uber's are Prius or Priusi.

I think that says it all.

Bill x
Lada. Unbelievably reliable Ladas are the natural progression from amazingly reliable Fiats. The Internet Research Agency is the famous Russian troll farm. It stands to reason that they would try to demoralize the west by convincing us to drive Fiats. Can you imagine what would happen if all the tow trucks were also made by Fiat? People who were physically unable to push their car to the side of the road would have to give up driving, and, except for that one neighbor, the able bodied would be afraid to drive further than they could walk home in a reasonable amount of time.

Around here the ones that complain because you can't make any money with Uber drive Cadillac Escalades.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16753
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:39 pm quote
Such
I think it was the Fiat 127 that ended up in Russia together with the plant to build it.

Bill x
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2059
Location: Not really sure but I think somewhere down South, in the engineering dept at Starfleet's UK HQ
Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:10 am quote
I think the 127 was turned into the Yugo Bill. It was made in Poland if I remember correctly. Probably Russian controlled though.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16753
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:18 am quote
Buff
My mistake - Fiat 124

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_124

Bill x
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16753
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:02 am quote
Hypocrite
So the right side oil seal blew out on the AK550 the way home the other day.

I dropped it off at the dealership this morning to get it replaced under warranty

The owner said - which side is it ? Right I say. Ours has gone on the left. He says.

There goes my credibility I thought.

Regardless it's the best piece of kit I've ever ridden.

Bill x
Sponsor
Granturismo 218
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 5449
Location: South Carolina
Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:06 pm quote
Stromrider wrote:
I think the 127 was turned into the Yugo Bill. It was made in Poland if I remember correctly. Probably Russian controlled though.
The Yugo was named for the country it came from. I'm pretty sure it's not Poland. I saw one on the road about two years ago.
Here's a trivia question: What do the Fuji Rabbit and Yugo have in common?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 5349
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:23 pm quote
Motovista wrote:
Stromrider wrote:
I think the 127 was turned into the Yugo Bill. It was made in Poland if I remember correctly. Probably Russian controlled though.
The Yugo was named for the country it came from. I'm pretty sure it's not Poland. I saw one on the road about two years ago.
Here's a trivia question: What do the Fuji Rabbit and Yugo have in common?
A "U"?
Team Scooter Trash for Petfinder Foundation   Vespa Wasp Pin Badges   AF1 Racing Vespa Austin
Post Reply    Forum -> General Discussion Previous123Next
[ Time: 0.3188s ][ Queries: 25 (0.0436s) ][ Debug on ]