Over a Barrel (BGM187)
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Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1443
Location: UK (South East)
Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:39 am quote
My VBC was definitely like that. It just took a standard PX 15mm ID bearing. That link is the 'upgraded' one that I was referring to. Machined by Worb5 from a PX200 shaft and then badged up as Serie Pro by SIP. .
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:11 am quote
I found that your VBC linked to the same FA shaft I'd used (12-15-11.5 as you said), and my '81 P--X linked to 12-12-11.5, so confirmed that too; I'd edited my last post while you posted (previous page now).
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1395
Location: california
Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:00 pm quote
Sime - I have the same conversion - on even older VBB cases from '61.
I used the FA counter shaft - though I don't remember the option of the Worb 5 being on my radar, or the description as a "grade B" decent repair...
Mine is holding up great - to date...
For your reference - I used:
88216000
23622300
90025000
I was told when I bought it that FA "machined it down" to work on my cases.
As you can see - it required that I put in an EFL xmas tree and then of course change to a new bearing on the clutch side.

That said - from what I can see from the picture - it looks like a manufacturing defect to me.
- There is no swirl in the break - which I would have expected if it was due to very high loads
- The break appears to occur where I am guessing they machined it. The area on one side of the break is polished as if cut - the other side of the break is textured as if cast.
- The break didn't occur at a step - that is where the highest differential loads are felt. The taller part of the shoulder being exponentially stiffer than the lower part of a shoulder (I think its a x3 difference or more as circumference grows).

Also - sometimes a giveaway that you have a flaw in the metal can be seen in the final break - you get a different color for part of the metal that had been exposed to oil or what not for some time before the rest gave way. I noticed you have a 1/4 moon shape that is darker in this photo. There also appears to be some orangeish discoloration that suggests corrosion - but that could be just the photo.

Finally - though hard to tell from the photo- it also looks like there could be hairline cracks that emanate from the shoulder. This would be a second highly suspect place to propagate from after poor machining/polishing. Second photo has some arrows. Post. a few more pics of the break if you wanna. Maybe one of the engineers on here can comment as well - though I don't think Im far off.

Sucks for this to have failed. Maybe send to SIP using comments from above - if that has low miles on it - they owe you a new shaft. Was it new with this build?

My $.02
-CM

Screen Shot 2020-06-29 at 12.33.35 PM.png
Shiny surface on one (machined area) rough surface on other (casted)

Screen Shot 2020-06-29 at 12.52.32 PM.png
Arrows show hairline cracks?
Line shows corrosion that emanated from those hairline cracks?
This does not look to me like a catastrophic failure - but rather - a flaw that then lead to catastrophic failure

Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:37 pm quote
Hi CM, thanks for input; I'll do some better photos in the morning, but a quick few thoughts on your observations tonight.
We are using the same parts. Although I bought mine a couple of years ago, this is its the first use, and only a few miles, but I'm not interested in freebies, just not repeating any identifiable causes. I'd certainly be happier if the cause were known, or at least narrowed down to the likeliest, so I don't repeat it.
It's certainly more of a snap than a twist, but this shaft is static and just supports the two bearings; it doesn't rotate or drive anything. Wedging the woodruff key under the primary would try to bend the shaft, but surely not enough to snap it - I did give it a few taps like that though, so maybe that's a factor.
I think the rough area (green arrows) is just greasy fingerprints.
There is another flat area bordered by a ridge as well as the quarter moon, making three distinct areas, but there's no orange. Using the photo of the stub in situ, I could work out the orientation of those areas; it's roughly quarter moon at top, flat area to rear (woodruff key roughly to front, just lower than centreline - opposite the flat area).
I'll dig my loupe out in the morning, for a closer look, but I don't think there are any cracks.

Does anyone remember someone posting about two different shapes of needle bearings (rounded ends being significant I seem to recall), the overall length and how they fitted? I think it might be significant; I recall it being quite a tight fit to install, and very tight to remove.

Maybe I did just get a dud; I don't know.

Anyway, I'm off to bed to dream of happier things....
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7646
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:48 pm quote
That break is amazing. Never seen that before.

Sime, can you have the flywheel side case bored out to take the largest bearing & input shaft? Can't be a very big job for a small machine shop.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1395
Location: california
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:26 pm quote
Sime,
Your point's a good one - it doesn't spin...
The break in the center of a machined surface is definitely bizarre.
Wierder still - that segment is supported from bending by steel needle bearings and the ID of the xmas tree race that they are pressed in to - making it virtually the thickest part of the shaft.
Additionally - you did not mention any damage to the cases - which of course are much softer metal than the shaft and a bending force should have damaged.

But you noted two interesting things.
1. That you had to pound the shaft in fairly hard
2. You raised the question about the needle bearing discussion.

So now I have a hypothesis on why/how it failed - though I would be interested to see more pics.

First - the needle bearing discussion:
It was between Swiss and Myself.
I think there are two needle sizes - and Swiss's issue might have been related.
He can comment.

The issue I experienced was as follows.
When I went to assemble, the new needle bearing I purchased fit - but when I would tap the input shaft in to place - the xmas tree would not spin.
When I then tried my old needle bearings - it spun nicely.
I measured both for width and length and could not identify the difference.
I sourced another set of needle bearings - and they worked great.
Later - when discussing with Swiss - I believe he identified that the needle bearings had two different ends - some with and some without a chamfer.
My assumption was - that the lack of chamfer on my needle bearing ends meant that they were hitting a small radius at the shoulder - and this was creating interference.

It is possible that your needle bearings were incorrect in some way.
Perhaps the missing chamfer...
As you hammered them in - they were putting great deal of force on that shoulder.
Would your xmas tree spin freely when it was torqued down in to the clutch side of the case? Mine wouldn't with some of the needles - even though they all cared the same part number. Other manufacturer's were fine.

There may also be two different lengths of needle bearing.
I don't recall Swiss's findings exactly.
In any event - is it possible that as you torqued down your counter shaft bolt - you were applying a longitudinal or pulling force on the part of the shaft that snapped?

I suspect incompatible needle bearings as a root issue - and perhaps in combination with a manufacture issue that left it prone to snapping.

Maybe that break we are seeing is a pulling apart of the shaft - like a piece of licorice being stretched to breaking. the needles working as the head of a press against the shoulder as you torque the nut at the other end.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2132
Location: London UK
Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:49 pm quote
I think that's it. Sounds good to me. Needles were the wrong ones. If you imagine it crunching as it spun, that would have caused the stress fracture. Still pretty amazing.
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:01 pm quote
We seem to be heading towards the roller bearings, so I'll do some precise measuring of the three shafts later, see if I can find both types of roller to measure, and find the old posts on the subject. There'll be more later when time permits, but for a quick morning coffee read and reply, here goes:
Ginch, both sides of casings would need to be opened, and its already a weak point on the main case half anyway; that side is 12mm on p---x not 15 for EFL, and on the flyside it's 11.5 not 13 for EFL. But I have a spare set of EFL casings (E#1 Old Faithful), which need splitting anyway, which is why I'm thinking of putting BGM onto those EFL casings and use a nice chunky shaft.
CM, proper case inspection will follow; I was rather caught out by broken shaft making it a bigger job than expected all will get stripped-out, cleaned and inspected now. At the time of installation the shaft did need a tap into place, rather than just sliding in, but it all spun freely, no crunching or heavy friction; the fitting tightness was enough for me to notice, but I wouldn't have proceed if I was concerned. I recall this was after you'd done yours because I did you a photo (p4 on this thread) to show the easier way of installing the partially-assembled shaft and bearings without cutting the casings, which I recall you did. Some careful measurement is needed to confirm, but torquing isn't against the needle bearings; the shoulder of the shaft should be tight up against one side of the main bearing, and the stub on the casings should be tight on the other. My needle bearings were rounded, and the shoulder where they sit is square, but maybe the overall length squeezed it against the shoulder; measuring will confirm and there should be some sign of it too; again that photo shows there not to have been a problem, so I'll post it again below. I'd expect the cluster ring edge to deform or crack before the shaft broke though, again I'll have a better look for wear/damage later. I'll check everything I can think of later to see if anything can be firmed up in this theory; it would be good to pin it down and not repeat it.
If it does turn out to be the roller bearings, it will be interesting to establish which are the issue because I think I'm right in saying these are standard on engines way back, not specific to earlier or later engines. Mine were the rounded ones on this build, but I'd have to check where they came from. Do I recall one of you chaps peeling off a label off a pack to reveal a country of origin before? Reading your previous posts will clear some of it up.
More later.....

installing input shaft and gear cluster.jpg
photo from p4; the bearings are sitting nicely and ready to 'push' shaft into place before torquing

Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:09 am quote
I'll be as brief as possible, and impartial; trying to gather evidence and find an answer, not prove any point either way. Lets also note that there are no signs that this engine ever ran with a broken input shaft, which I don't think it did, though it may well have been failing. The first sign of a problem was after I'd jammed the woodruff key under the primary cluster. It's just worth keeping that in mind; I don't think it's irrelevant now that I've had a better look at the shaft and bearings.

There's lots of info to get through, the really quick summary is that the only damage I can see is to the clean-broken shaft itself; nothing else. I also can't see any problems with the bearings, but I've added that last comment in after the detail below:

I've identified my bearings as ScooterCentre #3720009, OEM, which turned out to be labelled RMS, but are NRB from India ('Application Bajaj'); those are the round-ended ones, and the dimensions and packet are below. One size fits all. I haven't found any others lying around yet, but will have a better look later, and also there's posts on other threads still to find and read this evening. Looks like the someone I remember who checked the labels was actually me; I've scanned the package in case others still conclude these might be a problem, but I don't think so now.

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/needle-set-2.0x11.8mm-multiple-gear-cluster-oem-quality-vespa-px125-px150-px200-t5-125cc-cosa-rally180-vsd1t-rally200-vse1t-sprint150-vlb1t-ts125-vnl3t-gt125-vnl2t-gtr125-vnl2t-gl150-vla1t-super-vna-vnb-vba-vbb-21-pc-3720009?number=3720009

Everything has been inspected with a watchmaker's loupe, and photographed (below) nothing jumps out as showing stress, cracks or wear. I've highlighted a notch on the edge of the crack, which coincides with the junction between the quarter moon and the zone bordered by a ridge; this seems that it might be a point of interest to those that know. Then that just leaves the measuring, mainly to establish any differences between the three shafts and whether these bearings would have been a problem in any or all of them.....

1) Simple to start with; is the internal diameter of the cluster smaller than the shaft and two bearings? Did I need to 'hammer' them in? (I'd have said they needed a tap, rather than a push, but not hammer, which would have rung bells).
Everything is in mm
ID cluster = 15.60
OD shaft = 11.55
OD bearing = 1.98
No, not the problem the tightness on installation was probably just the interference fit with new shaft and other new bearing; it isn't here.

2) Does the overall length of bearing sit inside the bearing surface of the input shaft, and does the bearing end radius need to be measured precisely for interference with shoulder?
Overall length of bearing = 11.6
distance between shoulders on shaft = 12.0 (both internal shoulders are square, no radius or chamfer to be concerned with).
Yes, it sits inside the bearing race between the two square shoulders without any issue.

3) Are all three shaft types the same dimensions at this bearing surface, and in relation to the fixed-point, which is the other bearing surface; would these bearings have been OK on all three shafts? I did a little schedule which shows dimensionally there's no functional difference, the FA dimensions being the middle result if anything, but that doesn't account for quality or faults. See sketch below; (dimensions are the average of five measures in each case, so look a bit rounded).
A = P150X shaft
B = Failed (FA/OEM) stepped Shaft
C = PX150 EFL Shaft

I'd have to conclude the bearings are not the cause (subject to reading elsewhere and finding the other type for comparison), so either a dud, poor quality, or another issue.......

Photos and sketches:

1.jpg
This first, so it's near the corresponding explanation above

2.jpg
Any interest in this particular point?

3.jpg
As high-def as my old kit goes I'm afraid

4.jpg
No sign of stress, distortion, undue wear or cracking

5.jpg
Nothing to see here....

6.jpg
..or here....

7.jpg
..or here.

8.jpg
Woodruff wedged in a strong little corner, just dented soft casings, but no cracks

9.jpg
These aren't really still on my suspects list

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2132
Location: London UK
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:35 am quote
Probably caused by some vibration in that bearing. Near the outside lip of the shaft, where you put the red dot, does that look like wear? If it was a tight fit it might not have made audible crunching noise but sure that's what it was. Use some other needles in the next one and it will be fine.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1395
Location: california
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:04 am quote
Sime -You seam to have a good handle on it.
Here's my best shot on what you've shared/uncovered, if helpful.
- No damage to shaft seat on cases = limited flexing stresses - no highly catastrophic single event.
- Also means shaft was likely weakened when it broke in half as little force was transferred to case.
- Xmas tree free spinning after counter shaft nut torqued in assembly =
a. right needle bearings ends/OD
b. right needle bearing length - shaft shoulder were not bottoming out on ends of needles.
- 1/4 moon tho is a red flag. The fact that the two halves have matching discoloration means that the shaft cracked for some time prior to it breaking in half, but was still in one piece. That dark 1/4 moons are the depth of the crack that pre-existed for some time. In all likelihood - the breaking event was when the key fell in between the gear and the case and you torqued it/ stepped on the kick start lever.
My guess would be - the key was was on the opposite side of the crack - giving some leverage to pry the shaft further open. That crack could have formed in heat treatment process mishandling of some sort (quenching/ failure to anneal/ etc.)

You noted that the key was stuck too hard to have been movable without disassembling - so it had some decent leverage on an already cracked shaft - and it broke when you stepped on the kick starter - my guess would be, it was cracked - and the kick starter gives you some pretty good leverage.

Long and short - you likely had a defective shaft with a pre-existing crack from heat treatment or later damage when it was "cut down".
Looks it to my eye anyway.
-CM
Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1788

Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:32 am quote
Well I must say this topic is as interesting and informative as CM's Sidecar topic, nice work and really hope it all works out for best results.
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:43 am quote
I'm inclined to agree with you CM, and thanks to you and everyone else for taking an interest in the subject.
I did pin-down the orientation of the suspected pre-existing crack, and the fail point-of-interest relative to the woodruff key, and it supports the theory, which I think is more convincing than the bearing theory, which I think I pretty much covered earlier.
I do have some more stuff to post on the subject to tidy it all up, and I'll get it all together later, or in the morning when I have time.
More detail as to why for each item later, but tentative conclusions:
֍ FA Italia shafts are probably OK (you, and others are using them without issue); from the look of the fracture I probably got a dud.
֍ My woodruff key wedge finished off the job, which is probably a good thing; the final failure was in the car park, rather than a proper gearbox lock up at speed.
֍ NBR round-end bearings are not a problem, in fact might fit better than the SIP less-rounded ones (I read yours and Swiss's stuff earlier and will link to them later). I also found some conical-ended ones in a T5 gearbox box of goodies I have here (photos and dims later). I'll be ordering several sets from several suppliers for comparison to satisfy my curiosity on the subject, and to use the ones I think fit best.
Despite my knowing that the sensible thing to do would be to put the most powerful kit on the strongest engine, especially while they're both on or near the operating table, I will probably just put a new shaft in this engine and try again. I'm still not rushing to swap it back in though, however much barracking there is. Proper summary later..........

I also need to do some orders.

Thanks again Lynnb; no matter how carefully we measure, cut stuff up and assemble, there's no planning against a bit of poorly manufactured after-market kit, knowing the true origin and quality of stuff is a bloomin' minefield, and just paying more is no guarantee. Here, an old Piaggio one would probably have lasted for years, the alternative being paying top-dollar for a label, which in itself is no guarantee that it'll be better; the Serie Pro option being an example of that choice here, which is a machined Piaggio one anyway I did note that you'd made that point, swa; cheers.
Lurker
Vespa VBA1T, 1960.
Joined: 21 Apr 2016
Posts: 4
Location: Sweden
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:46 am quote
sime66 wrote:
I'll be as brief as possible, and impartial; trying to gather evidence and find an answer, not prove any point either way. Lets also note that there are no signs that this engine ever ran with a broken input shaft, which I don't think it did, though it may well have been failing. The first sign of ....

Photos and sketches:
That does look like metal fatigue. Presumably HCF (high cycle fatigue). Abnormal vibration could be the cause from an engineering perspective. Although unsure if it's possible from a vespa perspective.
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:21 am quote
Everything is ordered to repair this and put the engine back together, but Sip will probably take a couple of weeks with current situation anyway. Several other sets of rollers ordered elsewhere to play with and compare before then.

Trying to establish the cause was just to avoid a repeat of it; thinking it through is not holding anything up.

Jack and handler (hi handler, thanks for joining in); you both support some wear/fatigue scenario that just doesn't sit well with me, and if it is correct I need to know the cause of it; a recap:
֍This is a new shaft.
֍It does not spin or drive anything, it just supports two sets of bearings holding the gear cluster.
֍Absolutely definitely it spun freely when I installed it.
֍The engine ran for no more than 30 minutes total since build, and the primary would have been spinning slower than the engine and driving the gears (any actual load) for less than half the time the engine was spinning; that's not high cycle is it? I don't know anything about metal fatigue, but did have a read up on HCF, and it doesn't seem right to me.
֍If there is some catastrophic vibration, how is it possible I didn't notice it? Where's it coming from, so that I can fix it?

I also think I showed yesterday that the roller bearings were not an issue; for others who might read later, there's some discussion here:

CM's, from Nov '19 onwards:
Vintage vespa with sidecar (Page 20)

Swiss's from Dec '19 onwards:
Stella 2T highway/performance upgrades (Page 16)

The other theory, which I can convince myself has a good possibility of being correct, is a pre-existing manufacturing fault, finished off by my woodruff key wedge. I think this is supported by a little study of the fracture pattern relative to where the key wedged; it's a poor image and sketch (below), but shows what I'm thinking, even if it doesn't convince.

If this is nonsense, and the bearings are not at fault (my rounded ones were the solution to the problem in previous conversations, it was Sip's less-rounded ones that caused the issue), then given the alternative being (HC) metal fatigue on a shaft that's barely been used and doesn't spin, I still have to find the cause of this catastrophic vibration.

This is not an excuse to delay rebuilding; I have made no secret that I'm in no hurry to run this engine again for reasons already stated, and don't need an excuse for it; I just want to convince myself it isn't going to fail again. Putting it back together and hoping for a different outcome without trying to establish the cause seems unwise to me. I've ordered another FA Italia shaft now, and will rebuild it, but I'd still be happier to know what happened.

Sketch explanation: Photo on previous page shows the stubby shaft end in situ, which had not moved (it was quite tight to remove, sucked-in by grease not jammed btw, so I'm fairly confident about that). Photo above shows my reference point of interest with the quarter-moon above it and the ridged section behind it. I marked that on the casings, transposed it onto the opposite casing, and compared it with the woodruff wedge-point by poking it through the shaft hole in the correct orientation all a bit haphazard, but good enough to make a picture to test the theory (below). That's all I've got on the subject for now; didn't want to ignore contrary thoughts and contributions, but conscious of trying not to make a meal of the subject:

Snap Sketch.jpg
Not my best work, but shows the thinking well enough

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2132
Location: London UK
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:45 am quote
Was most likely both tight bearing and a flaw in the shaft. And the woodruff key saved disaster. Next time try the needles without the ball bearing to see how tight it is.
Lurker
Vespa VBA1T, 1960.
Joined: 21 Apr 2016
Posts: 4
Location: Sweden
Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:31 am quote
Metal fatigue can be caused early if the casting of the iron went wrong (too high or too low temperature) or the amount of carbon is incorrect for the given temperature during the casting. If this was the case, it's a manufacture problem.
Metal is an interesting material as it's hard to understand it's structure without hefty microscopes and information about the casting process. Even the strongest alloys can be casted in a such way that they will break if you drop them. My point is that it might not be anything wrong with the engine nor how the axle was mounted, the cause of the failure could just be a bad sample due to incorrect casting and the rotational forces was enough to break it.
sime66 wrote:
Everything is ordered to repair this and put the engine back together, but Sip will probably take a couple of weeks with current situation anyway. Several other sets of rollers ordered elsewhere to play with and compare before then.

Trying to establish the cause was just to avoid a repeat of it; thinking it through is not holding anything up.

Jack and handler (hi handler, thanks for joining in); you both support some wear/fatigue scenario that just doesn't sit well with me, and if it is correct I need to know the cause of it; a recap:
֍This is a new shaft.
֍It does not spin or drive anything, it just supports two sets of bearings holding the gear cluster.
֍Absolutely definitely it spun freely when I installed it.
֍The engine ran for no more than 30 minutes total since build, and the primary would have been spinning slower than the engine and driving the gears (any actual load) for less than half the time the engine was spinning; that's not high cycle is it? I don't know anything about metal fatigue, but did have a read up on HCF, and it doesn't seem right to me.
֍If there is some catastrophic vibration, how is it possible I didn't notice it? Where's it coming from, so that I can fix it?
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:05 pm quote
Thanks again, I do appreciate you sharing your knowledge on a complex subject.
I understand better now that you meant possible metal fatigue caused during some stage of the manufacturing process, rather than the brief time it was in use, which was the idea I had trouble accepting.

Just to follow up on a point from earlier regarding the roller bearings; I did a reconstruction of the shaft (which I had already Superglued together yesterday for measuring), the gear cluster, and both bearings. The shaft with 21 rollers slips into the cluster easily and spins perfectly freely, the shaft onto the main cluster bearing (6302) is still tight, and was the resistance I had on installation. I'm still convinced the roller bearings themselves were not the issue. I will of course repeat this test with all the new components when I reassemble the engine.
Also worth noting is that there was some 'roughness' in the 6302 bearing, and inside the cluster there was a small amount of swarf from the clutch issue no doubt (remember the magnetic drain full of metal?) There is an oil hole in the gear cluster near the inner end of the roller bearings, so it is possible that some swarf went through there and between the bearings, shaft and cluster. There's no roughness (no damage) inside the bearing race on the cluster, and I'm replacing the 6302, but worth a mention as part of the investigation. Of course I'll be removing and checking everything before it gets bolted up again; I hope the other gears are undamaged and the bearings are OK and swarf-free.

Thanks again everyone; I'll update when I've got the new parts to play with......
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