Over a Barrel (BGM187)
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Lurker
vespa PX150E ‘95
Joined: 29 Aug 2019
Posts: 2
Location: Taiwan
Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:28 am quote
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Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2132
Location: London UK
Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:03 pm quote
Whats the correlation between the main jet BE3 holes and the float level? I know this is where the answer is to the optimal float level issue, just wondering how much.
Where does the static float level sit on the BE3 with each/no float spacer?
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:05 am quote
(Now they want dims)
That seems simple enough to answer; I'll put it on the list, and post lots of dims and numbers soon! Cooking tomorrow though; Good Friday – massive family roast lamb; that's the roast that's massive, not the family – table for one.
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:27 am quote
This was a bit more rushed than I'd like, so it's all subject to a check and tidy; tweaking Old Faithful design stuff took longer than I expected, then I noticed I'd used wrong Ed anyway, so it left me short on time to do everything thoroughly – including this measure and sketch below.

Basis for it is knowing fuel level relative to top of venturi from previous measuring, then measuring where jet stack sits relative to that known pint, then measuring BE3 holes relative to that dimension.

Here it is, I reckon (subject to measuring accuracy and carb variations), the middle hole on a BE3 sits 0.5mm above fuel level, so raising fuel level covers that hole. Summary of variations with float bowl spacers is scribbled at bottom, but it all needs a good check; any volunteers?

BE3 hole levels relative to fuel level for given float bowl spacer thickness..jpg
NOT CHECKED

Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:04 am quote
Interesting idea going on here.. so im taking maybe from what jack is saying and your nice little illustration with numbers is that ideal float level should be where the middle atomiser hole sits at 0 deck in relation to float closed level?

I wonder if there is an easy way to come up with that number for everyone to run a quick check. like measure the float resting level (from lid to base of bowl) when lid off similar to charlieman, plus any packer/spacer depth and the combination of those two make up the basis for judging spacer thickness from next number: measure the mj stack from AC top to the center line of the middle atomiser hole and subtract out the difference from top of ac to top of float lid seat plus any spacer. any remaining differences between the two equal correct float spacer thickness?

Am I completely wrong or is this the train of thought that we are heading towards?
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:14 am quote
float spacer group order request started here:

http://modernvespa.com/forum/post2395924#2395924
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2132
Location: London UK
Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:12 pm quote
Knew you were the man for measuring things. So as intended from Pontedera the float level sits just below the middle hole. As soon as started the level in the stack goes up due to the vacuum. This would cover the middle hole for sure, leaving only the top ones open. With a higher float level the middle holes must be covered and when the stack level increases, to get the effect we are seeing at low rpm the top holes are covering too. This would make the BE3 act like a BE4 until the rpm picks up and drops the level by pulling on the main jet.
So the ideal level is one that leaves the top holes open while at low rpm. With all the variables the leaning test suggested to CM is the best I can think of so far.
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:21 am quote
Further to developments and discussions elsewhere (CM22's and swa's threads; maybe others too), I decided to see if I could get similar results, or a spacer thickness, for this 25°.

I can't hide my results because they were disappointing, but it's fact that my kitchen carb tilt test results this morning were a shambles!

I decided it would be useful to have an angle for the first drip for every 0.5mm increment of spacer up to 3mm: First test, 0.5mm gasket = 30°; that looks promising (I should see it steadily reduce until I get to my previous 3mm = 18°), and somewhere in between with be my magic number for comparison with Jack/CM22 combo; 25° (what gaskets in that test?), and whatever I find on BGM when it's sorted (as high as I can without problems). Nah; went to 20°, stuck there for a few tests, then went up – play abandoned.

I like the idea, and it's good that others (CM) is testing and producing data too as a cross-check (though I have yet to catch up with it all after my Internet blackout), but this morning's test was not useful, I will return to it with an improved method and fuel. For the record, this was water (I didn't want to stink my kitchen out again) and an Si26 carb, but results were nonsense anyway, so forget it for now; it's Easter Sunday, and doing this is just sad.

Now; church or pub..................? (Neither; they're both closed)

'Shopping' tomorrow.

This paper can still be of use in the bathroom.jpg
This paper no use in kitchen, but will be re-purposed in bathroom...

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2132
Location: London UK
Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:56 am quote
Nice try. Water would only be in principle because of the density. Same float has different heights with different fuels (E5, E10, 4* etc) let alone water.

I was thinking just do the tilt test on the scooter. Not accurate enough? Will save a lot of time jetting.

One thing about jetting mentioned on Swa's thread. Safe jetting is not necessarily so safe if you go too safe. Lots of guys think that say a 125 main jet is running at full temperature and optimal power. Jetting up or down has less power and feels worse either way. From here a safe jet would be like a 128, a really safe jet might be a 132. Nope. Would run darker and cooler. However, this extra fuel is burning and its not burning on top of the piston because the extra safe jetting cooled down the CHT. So where is it burning......in the exhaust port, right on the side of the piston where they seize. Exactly where you don't want it. Very slightly richer than optimal is safe, more safe than that is not safe at all.
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:10 am quote
I knew water wasn't best, but I haven't even got a shed and didn't want to stink out my kitchen again, and thought a scale would be useful as a comparison. I cannot do lots of repetitive testing outside (on or off the scooter) at the moment; I will do a tilt test on my scooter when the flooding/starting is overcome, as a start point, and as jetting progresses.
I'll put my hands up to the jetting being my least favourite part of the job - such a drawn-out buggeration and anti-climax after the build and first running, especially when I don't care about the final power much. I do know it's important though, and have said I'll give it my best and try not to get too grumpy while I'm doing it. Not there yet; just want an Italian shopping bike for starters; haven't ridden it since first up the lane weeks ago, so back to step 2 for my build........trouble-shooting first run issues.
I appreciate what you're saying about temps (particularly at exhaust port rather than that showing on CHT on plug), peak-power, jetting etc., and not to assume that over-rich is safer; I just meant that, for example with tuned DR, I could easily make the chart higher with leaner jetting (on a short test run without seizing), but if I carried on down the dual carriageway to Lands End like it I'd not get far.
Molto Verboso
Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1033
Location: California
Sun Apr 12, 2020 6:52 am quote
Looking forward to how stubbornly your jetting goes along. Our last week was rough on the lockdown even the weather kept me quarantined my hands haven't been this clean in a while. At least some of the injuries had a chance for a few days.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1395
Location: california
Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:32 am quote
Quote:
25° (what gaskets in that test?),
For my tests - I didn't use a gasket on any.
My paper gaskets once compressed measure in at ~.43mm.
Perhaps I should have included.

Since water can play some interesting tricks due to surface tension - before testing ea. top I was using - I would do the tilt test - and let a fast drip occur - then I would go back to flat. My thinking was - I wanted the float to settle where it might in a real situation.

Also - sometimes I would get a single drip at a lower angle - I think this is residual liquid in the tubes. As I played with it - I found that tilting until there was a steady drip - was a better means to identify tilt.

All that said - I also found with all my float testing - that the level for any given float and needle set up could move around. My test for this was to have the float in a clear glass as you had done - liquid level marked- then suck out about 20mm of liquid with a syringe and let it refill. This could be repeated 10 times in a few minutes - and I ran my camera to record where the liquid level settled ea. time.

Have some more results - will post on my thread after second cup of jo.
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:42 pm quote
A Thousand Kicks and runs like S**t.
Brevity is my aim; just to record this for future, so I can pick it up later, but then forget it for a while; stealth-tweaking did not improve things.

New Jetting:
48/160, AC120, BE3, MJ140 (did 48/160 because it's 160 and same ratio as 42/140)
Mix screw 2½
New Plug
No float bowl spacer; just 0.5mm gasket.
Timing = 26°, 'K' = '7'.
Air temp 10°C

Took ages to kick again.
Eventually started (as I was about to give up) with throttle wide open, and revved like a bugger.
Accelerating in 3rd (to only about 80kph on reinstalled gps, only about 7200rpm) lurched and faltered dropping the revs bought it back under control.
Clutch OK now, not idling though.
Back down the lane, same again; get to about 80kph; surely can't be MJ splutter; I'm nowhere near opening her up (but is similar feel to if I held on too long in 2nd on DR), could be seizing – faffed if I know.
Stalled a couple of times whilst checking idle, and bumped fairly easily.
Generally running horrible – struggle to ride smoothly, lurching about. Getting worse, if anything.
Final stall with 'poppping' backfire; don't know what I'm doing, woken all the neighbours, not got out of the lane on to the road for longer runs/tests. Better to return and consider possible causes in case I'm doing harm. Rolled home, gave her a kick and called her a bastard; we'll probably make up in a week or so, but right now she's in the naughty corner.

Some extracts from voice recorder, to show rough running and 3rd acceleration lurching....

https://youtu.be/FFsuicljkI4

https://youtu.be/t8QOuRD-yHg

https://youtu.be/sY9HdIumrno


I'll draw up a list of checks to do below, which I'll add to as I ponder during the day, and if anyone suggests others, but I don't anticipate going back to it (in the public car park during lockdown) any time soon:

Possible causes - checks:

Air leak/seizing:
Check plug
Check oil for petrol
Re-torque crank case, head and carb
Pressure test
Piston/barrel – look up exhaust
Head off

Timing:
Check woodruff key
Check stator (resistance/slipping) and CDI (resistance)
Replace stator and CDI
Run with static timing back to 18° and Kytronic removed (in case I've killed it – I'm aware they normally die completely though).

Jetting:
Check plug, might suggest if it was WOT splutter, if so drop MJ - it's not just that though
Running worse than maiden voyage suggests, maybe, put thinner float spacer back
I don't think it's jetting; she doesn't even want to start.

Is backfiring when stalling significant?
Why so hard to start now it isn't flooding?

I think I'll start with whether I'm very rich or very lean, then the 'timing' list.

Last edited by sime66 on Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1443
Location: UK (South East)
Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:12 am quote
Sounds just like my 150 Super Sime, which funnily enough is a BGM 187. One day it will start first/second kick, then all of a sudden it will take 10 kicks, with a cough and the odd backfire thrown in. When it does eventually fire and run, the revs don't pick up for a while, like it's drowning.

I'm putting this down to timing, and I would have thought that's the likely cause of your similar issue, but I just haven't had the inclination to troubleshoot yet. The engine has a SIP hybrid crank, with a PX flywheel taper. I use a 2011+ PX ignition which is set using the I.T mark on the stator and the cast mark on the casing. I have long suspected that it's not really at 18 degrees, and maybe nowhere near. The weird crank, the oldie motor (normally 6v + points) and the latest PX ignition system are a recipe that may not have been tried before. I need to get busy with a strobe light.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2132
Location: London UK
Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:42 am quote
That is running terrible. Sounds really weak but more than just jetting. I think the same as Swa, timing or even could be a bad spark plug. That or you still had the carb full of water

When they run that bad and especially, backfire, its usually electrical. Which includes woodruff key shearing.

If the oil seal had fell out it would run better than that. Hows the plug look?
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1443
Location: UK (South East)
Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:49 am quote
Bodmin Bikers
Hey Sime, just seen this on BBC News. Great community service in times of lockdown, and a Vespa member would be the icing on the cake !!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-52234129/cornwall-s-coronavirus-bikers-delivering-to-the-vulnerable
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:50 am quote
Thanks for that link; It's good to see isn't it, swa.
Bodmin is fairly close to me; the other side of Bodmin moor, which is a lovely ride on a reliable scoot, but pretty remote for a breakdown – I had my first seize crossing it years ago in sleet and snow, managed to limp to Bodmin though, but needed a van home.
I've chatted with the the old bikers in Launceston, when I used to regularly park my scooter in town – (the only scooter in town); they look a bit hairy and leathery, but mainly a very friendly bunch, and do the normal Easter egg and Christmas kids hospital runs, so I'm sure they're doing something similar now.

Very briefly, in reply to first responses on naughty-BGM:
Brand new, gapped plug; I know that doesn't guarantee it isn't bad, but I did change it after the maiden voyage misbehaviour.
Couldn't be arsed to look at plug; wanted to get indoors before the bleary-eyed neighbours formed a lynch-mob - I was quite noisy, quite early. Will do it, but I only got up and down lane a few times anyway.
Different carb for kitchen tests – no water (maybe cobwebs).
I thought timing, sheared woodruff/stator slip from first ride, so that's getting three votes now and is prime suspect.
I'll recheck the lot when flywheel is off, then replace if necessary, stator and CDI, HT, cap, check spark etc., as I draw up a specific list of next car park jobs. I will also remove Kytronik from equation whilst I'm doing stator, and back to 18° for now. – Today I'm not going to think about it too much; this is not my idea of Bank Holiday scootering – should be down the seaside by Easter. Never mind though.
Molto Verboso
Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1033
Location: California
Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:59 am quote
sounds good until it interrupts. Sounds like ignition trouble. Maybe an alignment issue with crank flywheel and stator? Same stator and flywheel just changed crank/engine?
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:01 pm quote
Naughty BGM
Hope that's all it is Hibbert, anything electrical up to and including woodruff key is easy enough to sort; if it's that new chocolate crank, I'll be browned off though.
The only other thing I've thought of during the day (to add to my list above) is to retorque everything, starting with the studs under the stator while I'm in there, then head and carb too; would have checked them sometime anyway. Won't be looking soon though; she can sit out there and think her behaviour for a bit....
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:17 am quote
Had a stealth car-park play with BGM early this morning; did lots of tests, raised a few suspicions, actually identified no definite fault, replaced a few things anyway, as follows:

Plug: (photo)
Not alarming, it only did a few laps of the back lane.

Kickstart:
Not loose and useless (clutch OK).
Not seized solid (piston not welded to barrel)

Elec/Ignition:
CDI readings all within those I use to check new/identify faults – OK.
Stator readings all within those I use to check new/identify faults – OK.

(Because I found no obvious other faults during the following tests, I replaced CDI with brand new (tested again by me too), and stator with known good, borrowed from Old Faithful (tested again by me too), I also removed Kytronic, for now. Ignition is now all replaced with known good, and kept simple.

Flywheel/Woodruff:
OK. All good as new; no damage to woodruff key, taper is pristine, cone in flywheel is pristine, timing on stator was as I set it at 3mm past 'A' = 26° (subject to strobing when it's running well enough). I put replacement stator back on 'IT' = 18°.

Compression:
Blimey. I've not had a reading so high, so will ask the experts; compression cold was 165psi; is that OK? DR was 130psi cold.

Oil:
As it first started to flow I thought it looked remarkably golden and clear, but it turned a bit grey and bubbly. It smells really fresh though, and 220ml (ish – didn't measure) so no petrol. I wonder if a bit of oil, grease, and Dirko from build might cause that cloudiness in the first oil fill, but still not pretty; I'll leave it to stand overnight to see what it does. I filled with 250ml again, so next oil change might show more.
There's also a bit of metal on my magnetic plug; same question applies – is this normal for a new build while it's all bedding in, or something to worry about? I've never had to trouble-shoot/inspect these things so soon after a build before, (normally takes longer to break them), and I've never had magnetic plugs before, so not sure what to expect.

In short, other than cloudy oil and metal, I didn't find any problems, and that isn't ignition anyway; seeing the oil and metal I thought maybe clutch, but compression is good, and kick is turning everything over as it should. Maybe it was slipping at higher revs? It had been on my mind that it would be wiser to use this clutch in Old Faithful build (before I break it), and to get a stronger clutch for BGM, because that way I've got two decent clutches, not a busted one and its replacement, but that theory got sidelined by Old Faithful progress, which is another story.

I'll at least start her up in the morning, see if anything's changed; better or worse, then either get out on the road, or retire for another ponder.

Also, I see loads of you chaps have made loads of progress recently; I'm trying to catch up and keep up, but am still very interested in what everyone's up to.

Photos; plug, compression test, metal on drain magnet, oil:

1 Plug.jpg
So what

2 Compression.jpg
Blimey

3 Drain Magnet.jpg
I say!

4 Oil.jpg
Hmmm....

Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1395
Location: california
Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:35 am quote
Frustrating.
Other's have more experience and will comment I'm sure.
Here would be the places I would look.

Main seal on clutch side.
- Metal shavings doe not look right to me.
- Did you re-run a pressure test? (just went through a bizarre one myself). Symptoms fit the bill (backfire)

Arcing from plug wire/cap/or plug.
- My fave check for this is to start at night - arc is immediately apparent in the dark. Any chance the possible "worsening" is wet weather related? That would suggest weird grounding or arching.

If you have the entire wiring harness plugged in - disconnect it so the bike is running CDI only. A weird pinched wire causing grounding somewhere would be instantly ruled out and you could search for it knowing it was there.

Personally - would go after it simplest to most complex - meaning - unplug harness from CDI, then start at night looking for arc, then pressure test.
My $.02.
Hope helpful.
-CM
Molto Verboso
Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1033
Location: California
Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:23 am quote
wonder where the shavings are from? Hope the next ride is good looking forward to the report.
Addicted
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 616
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:55 am quote
My DR pressure was around 150 psi cold, brand new rings and hone before rings seated, hadn't ran yet. Wanted to make sure I hadn't gotten over zealous on zero decking my DR head. Probably would have been higher on a new build. My cylinder and ring gaps were middle of the line. I used rings from Grand-Sport but didn't have to gap them. Haven't checked again since I've put about 100 miles on. I was told 140 psi is a good number to target for street use. No pinking or other issues, I do run premium gasoline 91 octane here which is a 95 RON using EU rating.

Hopefully the shavings are just, gears wearing into each other. I'm curious what my magnetic plug looks like, put one in on my last change when I did the clutch, about a 100 miles on it. Not sure I have any gear oil around to be able to drain it.
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:01 pm quote
Engine is fine, Clutch is cattled, Pilot took a dive.
Absolutely delighted when she started 2nd kick with just a tiny bit of choke and not wide throttle and silly revs.
Slipped into gear, gave throttle a tickle and away she went, up through the gears, tamer than with Kytronik and at 18Ί now, but who cares! I'll just get a bit of sound and vision for the chaps, and maybe get out on the road show them some beautiful Cornish countryside......
Got to the end of the lane, clutch trying to stall as I turn (thought I'd fixed that – will tweak it in a minute before I go on the road).
Bombed back down the lane, right I'll keep the revs up and be ready with clutch lever for the turn; Ύ of the U-turn done, she wants to hit the wall, I'd rather we just went back where we came from, or stopped - where's neutral gone? – compromise to head for the gravel! Scoots got a couple of scrapes and I've got a rib, right over my heart, that took the fall – no deep breathing for me.
I made sure nothing major was broken and started her up again, went up and down the lane again, but clutch lever is slack now. Putted gently home; low revs, low gear, and parked her up. All I checked was that cable hadn't slipped on trunnion, and kick start still works; they're fine, so next job is look at the clutch.

It's probably got all the plates and corks spinning free by now, but it was slipping at high revs and grabbing at low revs if symptoms mean anything after the event. Bit of metal and cloudy oil yesterday, and it's all falling into place – as long as that place isn't inside my gearbox, I can cope with that.

Conclusion:
Engine is fine, but I'm not looking forward to pulling the clutch; it is where my hunches yesterday were leading me though, so that's something.

Next job (no hurry - can't go anywhere anyway):
Get the clutch out – hope I get all of it in one go, think I'll need a stronger one for BGM; won't know the extent 'till I look.

My personal view here, if this proves to be what I think it is, is that other clutch is OK up to about 17bhp (it handled pre-detune DR fine), but if getting nearer to 20bhp, you'd be foolish not to upgrade the clutch do a decent banded Cosa, before breaking one inside a running engine (Hibbert, Swiss? - I saw your threads, but still haven't caught up with everyone).

There will be film later but I have to edit it for stupidity first; I don't mind you chaps seeing me take a dive, but I just want to watch it myself a few times first.....

Edit:
Hold my bleach....
Having now checked for stupidity, I just went in with the revs up to stop it stalling on me, but the clutch wouldn't stop it grabbing, so at the same time I realised it was too tight for the turn at the speed I was trying it and I was heading for the wall, I caught some gravel and the front slipped out. I've done that U-turn thousands of times and never done that before, I had only been awake half an hour though. Done now anyway, must admit, my ribs do hurt and I had a shit night's sleep:

https://youtu.be/aXh935uHCF0

I'll pull clutch and inspect superficial damage to scoot when I'm in the mood. That aside, she's starting and running better; not sure which of the ignition items was culprit; hope Kytronik is OK, but I can sort all that later anyway.

Concentrating on engine for a moment, I had audio recorder going too, so best indication of that is probably after the restart, when I had a run when the clutch was starting to slip; for engine/clutch noises rather than extracting data, and keeping in mind my gear changes were a bit compromised too, so not very smooth even before clutch slipping:

https://youtu.be/6Fg1SJPxGvI

Hope now, once clutch is sorted, I will finally be able to get out of the lane onto the road and start setting it up better.....

Last edited by sime66 on Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2132
Location: London UK
Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:52 pm quote
Good news, bad news. Hope it sorts out easy enough.
Those clutches can be grabby when they're new. Riding while slipping it can help burn it in.
At least it now goes and starts. Somewhere to work from.
Addicted
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 616
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:40 am quote
Re: Engine is fine, Clutch is cattled, Pilot took a dive.
sime66 wrote:
Absolutely delighted when she started 2nd kick with just a tiny bit of choke and not wide throttle and silly revs.
Slipped into gear, gave throttle a tickle and away she went, up through the gears, tamer than with Kytronik and at 18Ί now, but who cares! I'll just get a bit of sound and vision for the chaps, and maybe get out on the road show them some beautiful Cornish countryside......
Got to the end of the lane, clutch trying to stall as I turn (thought I'd fixed that – will tweak it in a minute before I go on the road).
Bombed back down the lane, right I'll keep the revs up and be ready with clutch lever for the turn; Ύ of the U-turn done, she wants to hit the wall, I'd rather we just went back where we came from, or stopped - where's neutral gone? – compromise to head for the gravel! Scoots got a couple of scrapes and I've got a rib, right over my heart, that took the fall – no deep breathing for me.
I made sure nothing major was broken and started her up again, went up and down the lane again, but clutch lever is slack now. Putted gently home; low revs, low gear, and parked her up. All I checked was that cable hadn't slipped on trunnion, and kick start still works; they're fine, so next job is look at the clutch.

It's probably got all the plates and corks spinning free by now, but it was slipping at high revs and grabbing at low revs if symptoms mean anything after the event. Bit of metal and cloudy oil yesterday, and it's all falling into place – as long as that place isn't inside my gearbox, I can cope with that.

Conclusion:
Engine is fine, but I'm not looking forward to pulling the clutch; it is where my hunches yesterday were leading me though, so that's something.

Next job (no hurry - can't go anywhere anyway):
Get the clutch out – hope I get all of it in one go, think I'll need a stronger one for BGM; won't know the extent 'till I look.

My personal view here, if this proves to be what I think it is, is that other clutch is OK up to about 17bhp (it handled pre-detune DR fine), but if getting nearer to 20bhp, you'd be foolish not to upgrade the clutch do a decent banded Cosa, before breaking one inside a running engine (Hibbert, Swiss? - I saw your threads, but still haven't caught up with everyone).

There will be film later but I have to edit it for stupidity first; I don't mind you chaps seeing me take a dive, but I just want to watch it myself a few times first.....
Was it a hold my beer and watch this moment?
Molto Verboso
Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1033
Location: California
Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:58 am quote
oh shucks sorry about to hear about that Sime66 hope you and scooter heal up quickly.

Sounds like ignition might be better.
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:23 am quote
Hold my bleach.......?
It's nothing; I've got a bit of a sore rib and shoulder, and the repairs after it blew over in the wind will need another touch up - she and I both have plenty of scars. I'll edit some film into my first post this morning when I get time to finish and upload. Today I'm trying to finish a report that I need to have done and distributed by the morning.
The ignition; starting and running is definitely fixed – not sure what was to blame, but I can sort that later. I've had similar before and that turned out to be CDI breaking down, but I won't really know until I try to use the parts I swapped-out, starting with the Kytronik again, once the clutch is replaced. The clutch slipping was still there at higher revs, and that was part of the dodgy engine sounds before.
I pretty much knew this clutch wasn't such a good idea in this motor; looks like false economy not to have swapped it for a better one before, because it would have been fine in DR or Old Faithful, but that's just money and learning, so no drama. If this one is reusable, and I get a better one, I've got three clutches suitable for each engine power. As long as it all comes out in one piece, or at least I can account for it all, I'm not bothered; better than not knowing what was going on.

slide slide scaled slower.gif
Something to be going on with; Gifs can get quite annoying, so I'll remove it when I've sorted the film.

Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:38 am quote
this sucks. It seems clutches breaking in newly rebuilt engines is contagious like covid. We should contact trace all the clutch problems back to their source. Mine is a brand new BGM superstrong 2.0 which Gickspeed had cryogenically treated for strength, like Simon Phoenix About to pull the lid off and see what mess I got in there now. Hopefully it doesn't turn out to be Dr. Cocteau. I might have to chug a bottle of bleach and stick a flashlight down my throat.

Glad you are mostly ok. Hopefully the internals of you and your bike are
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:46 am quote
I saw your brief delight, and quick back down to Earth yesterday, Swiss, and felt for you; I've just not had time to catch up with everyone's threads properly - I've read the most recent, but missed a few week's. I suppose the best outcome for yours is it was the clutch cover that freed the oil; otherwise finding the source might be unpleasant. Hope it turns out to be OK.
There's definitely the need to appreciate the limits of whatever clutch you're running as we're building more powerful engines; Hibbert, I think you knew, and so did I really - silly to wait for it to break.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1584
Location: Florence, OR
Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:59 am quote
Bummer Sim! I'm watching on the sidelines and learning from all you guys. It's hard to keep up, but I'm filing stuff away, like when I O-tune my P200 (I'll learn the specifics of that at some point), I will most definitely be upgrading the clutch!

I hope you're able to take deep breaths soon.....
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:07 am quote
Likewise with your splendid work too! And so many others doing fantastic restorations and builds, and taking beautiful scenic rides. There's so much really interesting stuff of all sorts going on on this forum, but at times there's just too much to keep up with. better than than too quiet though.
Molto Verboso
Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1033
Location: California
Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:16 am quote
like the avatar upgrade Sime
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:27 pm quote
Time to upgrade this clutch then....
...regardless of whatever nightmare might be going on with it at the moment, that clutch is definitely slipping at about 7000rpm, so whatever goes back in has to correct that.

Especially with the likelihood of delivery delays at present, I'd really like to get my clutch upgrade order right first time, and because I'm a bit sore in the rib-department at present (bloody sore actually, but I'm trying to gloss over that little episode), I'm going to do an order before taking the old one out, so I'd really like another eye, or several eyes, on my order before I place it.
Main concerns are upgrading the basket without it being any bigger; for me, outside, it's a real drama if this doesn't fit in the space I made for the old one – I have no power in the car park to Dremel more casing out to make room for the upgrade.
SIP's stock is very low on the proper upgrades, the CNC #93400000 isn't in stock, but I think banded SIP Sport will be up to the job; it still says Ψ115mm, but must be a bit bigger with the ring surely?

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/main/base/Details.aspx?ProductNumber=93402000

This is the one I have now, and it's been really good in 17Bhpish tuned DR (which is why I never had to learn much about clutch upgrades yet); maybe it'll go back there, or into Old Faithful, if I haven't broken it):

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/main/base/Details.aspx?ProductNumber=93401000

I'm going to order a couple of sets of SIP CR80 friction plates, but the set with steels is out of stock, so will have to use my old ones, or new ones if I have some, but not SIP ones:

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+friction+plates+sip_93081800

Then it's springs, and again very limited stock at SIP. At present I use 16 standard springs, and probably have some new ones kicking around – will be raiding stock, next job after I've posted this. In stock are XL (in sets of eight), and XXL (in sets of 10); Springs is a new subject for me and I have no idea what I need, or deciding, other than to ask those who've played about with combinations; any suggestions, I guess for a combination of upgrade with standard?

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+springs+sip+sport+cosa_93121000

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+springs+sip+sport+cosa_93122100

Obviously, all the new hardware and the reinforced circlip, and I'll need different oil, but probably not from SIP, and I'll read back over what we did before on that.

Have I forgotten anything? I think, whatever the condition of the clutch in BGM now, I should be able to retrieve it and build a better one (or two) from what I find.

I'll also have to decide whether to use my 22T gear in BGM, but that's not important for the job in hand, which is doing a SIP order.

Right, I'm off to see what I can find in my spares......
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1443
Location: UK (South East)
Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:45 am quote
Sime,

I'm using a SIP Sport in my 221 MHR setup. It's got the band, so you can add up to 2mm around the bottom. I upgraded it with SIP CR80 plates and I added 4 x Piaggio Cosa springs to the 8 x SIP springs that were already in there.

It works really well and I didn't need to modify anything in the case or the clutch cover. For the price I think it's a good choice. Only time will tell
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:31 am quote
Thanks for that swa; I'll be getting some stuff ordered today or in the morning – I like to have a think first, as there's always something I remember after placing the order.
I'm already using 16 standard springs in the SIP standard Cosa (93401000), which has always felt great to use and given no problems, but maybe it's just my corks are wearing and it showed up on BGM, but not on DR. Still confused why it's grabbing as well though, but no doubt all will become clear when I get the cover off. I reckon, for a tenner while I'm doing the order, I'll get the XL for future; I want enough spares to build two clutches, and I have six standard in stock, so those extras should cover that. I'm sure it's a bit of trial and error for the right combo; SIP have a write-up, but don't say how many springs they're talking about:

“We also recommend stronger grade springs to be used (available in varying grades) even for the more milder road tuning-projects to enable all of the extra power created to reach the rear wheel. The “L” clutch spring is necessary for engines with 18-22 hp on the rear wheel, the “XL” for more than 22 hp and the “XXL” for more than 25 hp.”

Do you know the power for your 221 MHR? Just curious.

I'm ordering a couple of sets of SIP CR80, and I have found two spare sets of corks/plates that I can nick the plates from, so that's sorted too.
I've got the bush and washers in my spares, in fact I think I have more in stock than SIP at the moment.
I'm not sure about 200 casings, but I've done the mods for fitting a Cosa clutch in my 150 casings and cover; just not sure if I've got the extra clearance in the casings for the band. Anyway, I don't have much choice, so I'll have to sit there with a file if I need to; it's got to be done.

Casings Dremel for Clutch - for upgrade to banded SIP Sport.jpg
It'll be tight, but I'll have to make it fit.

Hooked
GS160
Joined: 11 Jun 2014
Posts: 291
Location: Εland
Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:32 am quote
I don’t know about those clutch basket but I bought 93246000 as I wanted to get rid of the riveted basket when my old Cosa clutch had gone to Vespaheaven when the rivets all broke. It wasn’t new but anyway.

Can say I had to dremel some from the clutch cover.

Just some clutch-input.
Hooked
P Series / Li / LML / Motobi
Joined: 24 Jun 2019
Posts: 375
Location: UK - 3rd Rock From the Sun
Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:53 am quote
for my 2cents

I remove the entirety of that aluminum protrusion and use a 200 clutch cover, not had any issues to speak of when using a banded clutch after doing this
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:01 am quote
That's interesting vespaholic; thanks for your input, it's all welcome.

I was looking for this FMP video earlier, and found it now (one of his better ones); at about 7:40min he compares that new inner on the 93246000, and how it wears. That put me off those when I watched this before, but I'm going to have a thorough watch of this video again and make some proper notes. The 93246000 is also Ψ118,03mm, which might be similar to a banded 93402000 if those are Ψ115mm +2+2mm. Fitting in the casings is important for me because modding the casings any more now is a pain, but I've already done the clutch cover mods for the Cosa, and doing more on that indoors isn't a problem. I had loose rivets before on an eight rivet clutch, but not on the 16 rivet 93401000, but I might have to revise that thought when I take it out to see what's up with it.

This is FMP's film; well worth a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxBsrRuCQr4

I'm just seeing what he says about springs; might just get new standard springs and stick to 16 (softer springs are easier on bearing wear, he says); still watching it, but looks much like where I was heading, and you're doing swa, so pretty happy with the plan - still pleased for other opinions until the morning, when I'll make my mind up and do my order.

Hi Gravelrash; I take the point about removing more of it, but it's there now, and doing more with it in-situ without power is not easy, but I think it'll be OK with a little tickle. Maybe, when I get the cover off and have a look, whatever's been going on in there might have removed some more for me.

Last edited by sime66 on Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:29 am; edited 1 time in total
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2132
Location: London UK
Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:43 am quote
16 spring banded sounds like a great plan. Stock springs should do it with the sip plates. Maybe buy 8 L springs in case it slips.

This kit is the best way to buy them, probably why nearly out of stock.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+friction+plates+sip_93081900

How's the jetting going?
Rallies Europe 2016   Vespa Wasp Pin Badges   AF1 Racing Vespa Austin
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