Over a Barrel (BGM187)
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Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:22 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
How's the jetting going?
My current jetting is perfect for the entire rev-range and at all throttle positions...

...because it's going nowhere until I sort the clutch!


Got a lovely big SIP clutch order in this afternoon though; banded SIP sport, Sip CR80 with Sip plates (I'm wary when stock is low, but after order it said immediately dispatched on confirmation, so thanks for correction, Jack; I'd have missed that), choice of (16) standard or L springs, reinforced circlip.

93402000, 93081900, 28960300, 93120100, 93182000

Thanks everyone for chipping in; I'll update when stuff arrives and/or when I commence surgery.
Hooked
GS160
Joined: 11 Jun 2014
Posts: 291
Location: land
Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:55 am quote
Thanks for the FMP-video, wish Id seen it before. Time will tell.
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:03 am quote
I'm sure yours will be OK; everyone has an opinion, and you're certainly right about the rivets being a potential problem. We're all in the same boat, hoping what we decide on is up to the job - Time will tell here too.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1443
Location: UK (South East)
Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:17 am quote
"Do you know the power for your 221 MHR? Just curious."

Sime, I don't know the power, but I'm hoping it's north of 25hp. Like I said, only time will tell. The clutch feels great, and I went with more springs rather than stronger springs. That's 8 * whatever SIP puts in the Sport clutch (L or XL?)+ the 4 * stock Piaggio Cosa springs. I could go to 16 of some mix if I felt it was necessary.

Just occurred to me that my 200 cases may not have required any mods to accommodate the banded Sport clutch because they may already have been modified. They were second user or preloved as people like to say these days
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:50 am quote
I feel a bit pre-loved myself, or just unloved; certainly been used a few times.

I wasn't sure if 200 cases even had that piece we have to Dremel out on 125/150; never found any decent enough and cheap enough 200 casings to play with. If I need more space I'll just have to file it out by hand with a rag to catch as much as I can.

It's all ordered now, so I'll make the best of it; I'm pretty happy with the decision. I just realised I'm short by a baseplate to make two clutches, but not bothered because I don't know what the other basket is like yet anyway; might be in bits. I also just had a look on Wasp, and they seem to have a good selection of different springs in stock, so a bit of sorting those out later isn't such a drama anyway. My Sip 'L' springs went from one green box to red after I'd ordered, so not sure if they'll come in first parcel.

Just been revisiting what we discussed about oil for the CR80s, and think the consensus was semi-synthetic 10W/40 JASO MA2, so having a look round for some from anyone who's still trading normally and using a delivery service that isn't too shabby.

Back on track for getting off the track and onto the roads...........
Addicted
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 616
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:11 am quote
If you don't need or want more springs could you spot weld between the rivets? I was also wondering about adding more posts for springs if you can get them.
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:29 am quote
Unfortunately this little topic got split over two pages, but if you watch the FMP video I linked to near the bottom of the previous page he talks through the 8 rivet clutch, with extra welds between the rivets, which you can buy done or DIY. I like the extra spring options of the 16 rivet basket though, but if I had a still decent 8 rivet basket, I think I'd be more inclined to weld, rather than add rivets, although the rivets are available; I think it's these:

Rivets:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/rivet+clutch+basket+186x3+mm+_23736500

8 rivets + 8 welds + band example (Ferodo), or DIY:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/main/base/Details.aspx?ProductNumber=93045000
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:04 am quote
Kytronik Smart Booster repairs...
Just killing time indoors 'till the clutch stuff gets here, and have been trying to find something wrong with the three ignition items I took off, one of which seems to have been a problem. Posting this for interest, with the slight possibility it might help anyone who hasn't seen it before.

First off, I still can't see a problem with CDI or stator; that doesn't mean they're good, just I still found no faults, and the after inspection and tests, would have used them but now they're in the suspects box, until proved to be OK in use.

To the Kytronik, which might interest someone. I believe that it's accepted these either work or not, and if not it's just chuck it away, and decide if it's worth another 100 or not to replace. I was having a look round to see if there are any continuity/resistance tests for a known-good/new one, (which I should have done myself in hindsight, anyone able to oblige BTW - across the red terminals?) This article answers some of that, and also might prevent someone throwing a dodgy one away before doing a simple repair, which I didn't know about. It's only the red wire where the magic happens, the green and white go straight though the box, so if a green or white wire breaks off you can just connect it to its pair; seems simple when you know, but I didn't, so sharing it. From the horses mouth, here:

https://www.kytronik.com/blogs/news/how-to-fix-a-smart-booster-with-a-broken-cable
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri May 01, 2020 8:40 am quote
sime66 wrote:
Got a lovely big SIP clutch order in this afternoon though; banded SIP sport, Sip CR80 with Sip plates (I'm wary when stock is low, but after order it said immediately dispatched on confirmation, so thanks for correction, Jack; I'd have missed that), choice of (16) standard or L springs, reinforced circlip.

93402000, 93081900, 28960300, 93120100, 93182000

Thanks everyone for chipping in; I'll update when stuff arrives and/or when I commence surgery.
Sime, when these items show up, I am wondering if the basket is designed to work with the CR80 plates as is, or if the CR80 plates have been pre-cut to fit the standard cosa 2 basket? Trying to understand the differences between some of their CR80 products, because if you notice they have two product numbers for CR80 plates which I am not sure what the difference is..

93081700
https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+friction+plates+sip+_93081700

93081800
https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+friction+plates+sip_93081800

I am hoping, for my p200, I can get a SIP ultrastrong clutch with their CR80 plates and either one or the other have been designed to work together without any modification. Call me lazy, I don't feel like grinding clutch plates! The BGM I got has a basket that is designed to work directly with unmodified CR80 plates.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1443
Location: UK (South East)
Fri May 01, 2020 8:54 am quote
Swiss, I bought 93081800 last year. They just went straight into my SIP Sport clutch, which is standard Cosa size basket AFAIK. These plates are pre-modded by SIP, unlike the BGM ones that I bought, which are on the shelf because I couldn't be bothered to get the Dremel out
Addicted
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 616
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Fri May 01, 2020 9:30 am quote
Is it me or do the 93081800 set appear to have more friction material?
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Fri May 01, 2020 9:41 am quote
This is my understanding of those two:

93081800 are Sip's 108mm (to fit Cosa) improvement on the Honda CR80 a new item altogether; it seems generally agreed by those who've used them and commented that they're better than Honda CR80 too.

93081700 are Honda CR80 (originally 110mm), modified for Sip to 108mm; I don't think I'd consider paying Sip 40 to modify 10 CR80s for me.

Both those Sip items will fit straight into an i108mm Cosa basket or modify your own CR80, which I'm probably using in Old Faithful because I'd bought them and I'm using an old spare 7-spring clutch there.
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Mon May 04, 2020 4:03 am quote
Early morning damage inspection and clutch removal, as follows:

(Rolling around in car park with bruised ribs was a low-point in this build; not my favourite bank holiday scootering memory, but it's done now).

First thing, I sheared my extension bar trying to remove hub nut; I think I took the 'two fat blokes and a long pole' a bit too literally. In future I'll stick to nearer my 90Nm, rather than FMP's 150Nm; I might need help getting that off again, but I worked around it anyway.

Good news is clutch was intact, so can be rebuilt and re-used in one of the other engines. There is a miniscule amount of play in the 16 rivets; I can't see or feel it, just able to hear it move I'll try to give the rivets a little tightening with a hammer before re-using.

I suppose also good news is that the cause of the clutch troubles was immediately obvious, though what caused it is less so; the push-rod had tried to weld itself to the pressure plate and eventually disintegrated. That might have been after the grabbing though, then broke when the lever went slack after I rode it again - dunno exactly. I think I can account for the parts, but hope gearbox will eat any little bits of push-rod; I'll flush it through with the old SAE30 before using the 10W40. As far as slipping is concerned, there is some slight evidence of it on the plates, though the corks were still pretty good. A strip, inspection and temporary rebuild showed no problems, with it separating and spinning as it should, and very little wear at all to basket or plate tabs themselves; it's been a good clutch.

The slipping and grabbing could be my fault, I had clutch issues from first start, but thought I'd sorted it, but maybe overdid it and made it worse. Maybe cable was starting to fray around trunnion, so I should have replaced it; I thought it would be easier to adjust with the old cable to be sure clutch was OK, before messing about with a new stretching one, but will have to replace now anyway.

So, I'm waiting on clutch parts for rebuild with reinforced clutch and SIP CR80 plates and corks, then back to it. Meanwhile, I have a sidepanel and bent front mudguard to repaint, again.

1.jpg
Could have been worse, but clearly something is't right...

2.jpg
Weighed the Push-rod swarf to 6-7g; same as a new push-rod, so it's mainly all there; just a bit melted and broken

3.jpg
Sludge inside Clutch Cover - I'm replacing this cover as there's some damage around push-rod housing; have a few spares; just need to Dremel

4.jpg
Corks and plates still pretty good; some sign of slipping, especially on notched, non-dimpled plate.

5.jpg
Basket and springs intact. A tiny amount of movement at rivets, but can probably knock them tight again, will reuse this basket; it's been good

6.jpg
Rebuilt, oiled and tested it anyway; just to be sure, though most of this will be replaced when Sip order arrives.



Last edited by sime66 on Mon May 04, 2020 10:57 am; edited 1 time in total
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon May 04, 2020 6:04 am quote
Funny how these parts all seem to be getting similar damage for everyone at the same time. Last summer it was all cylinder seizes. This springs its all clutch brass rods! Hopefully that is it for the next few months and you are healed physically and your pride in short order!
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Mon May 04, 2020 10:44 am quote
I think I'm probably a bit green with clutches because that other one has done so well for so long; it's moved over into new-built engines a couple of times, and I've never really paid much attention to those parts, other than replacing anything looking worn with new, usually from a push rod kit with all the bits, but I wonder if quality of parts makes much difference, when the only indication of quality is brand or price. I sometimes think that branded stuff probably comes from the same factory but costs x2. x3 just for the name, even when you know they don't actually manufacture it (eg Piaggio). I know SC/BGM like to put their logo on everything these days, and I've been a bit suspicious of it. Anyway, as an example I looked at push rods on sip; you really can pay what you like:

Grade 'C' Unbranded Kit = 5.43
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/push+rod+kit+clutch+_87090000

BGM Kit = 8.67
https://www.scooter-center.com/en/clutch-actuating-plate-set-bgm-original-vespa-largeframe-px-cosa-rally-sprint-ts125-gt125-gtr125-super-vna-vnb-vba-vbb-gs150-gs160-ss180-bgm8007kt?number=BGM8007KT

Grade 'B' RMS = 2.54
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/push+rod+clutch+rms+_87080000

Grade 'A' Piaggio = 5.43
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/push+rod+clutch+piaggio+_87080100

Grade 'AA' DRT = 6.93
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/push+rod+clutch+drt+_87080200

Same goes for pressure plate and actuation lever, but does spending more guarantee better quality? I Doubt it. I suppose upgrading clutch springs, and the higher revs at gear change on acceleration would mean more attention will be needed to the quality of these parts; maybe need to rethink it and not use any old brand. Anyway, got that thought off my chest now.

I also wanted to give Antoine at Kytronik a mention; I followed up my recent post on here with an email to Kytronik, just to see if there were any tests I could do with my SmartBooster before plugging it back in, when clutch is sorted; he's been answering questions over the weekend and been really helpful. Lots to think about and check, which I'll go into if and when I need to tackle it (if ignition is troublesome again with new CDI and replacement stator, when I re-fit SmartBooster).
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1443
Location: UK (South East)
Mon May 04, 2020 11:38 am quote
I like the way that SIP grades the products it sells. They seem to recognise the fact that Piaggio items are not always the best in some cases, but are in others. I generally find that DRT items are 'improved' in some way. The boutique players (DRT, MMW, MRP etc.) are usually worth the extra, if you need the extra, but can be overkill and costly. I like BGM stuff, but it's more of a brand thing than a sign of superior quality.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2132
Location: London UK
Mon May 04, 2020 10:45 pm quote
With the new clutch check everything is loose and free when the clutch is compressed. Especially as the pressure is released and starts to bite. If any plate is bent it will start to drag too long before biting. Anything binding, catching or spring imbalance will make it grab.

With the cover, Dremel a groove where the oil way is now missing, so it at least catches some oil to run down to the pressure plate.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1443
Location: UK (South East)
Tue May 05, 2020 2:13 am quote
That basket looks very usable. Assuming it is not flowered at all, a band, reinforced circlip and SIP CR80 plates would turn it into an even better clutch. Were you using all 16 springs? How did it feel? Could that be a little too much pressure for the brass rod?
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Tue May 05, 2020 2:51 am quote
The new clutch won't go in until I think it's perfect, Jack, and I'll give the adjusting the attention it warrants, rather than it just being last job after an engine swap, thinking of it as something I can tweak as I go along as long as I'm rolling. I'll also do the groove to replace the channel in the cover; that's a good plan and easy to do.
Swa that clutch has been great, and will easily go again in one of the DR engines (that's where it came from - it's been in both of them before); I don't think it'll need a band in those engines, but will have a reinforced circlip, and although I have two sets of Sip CR80 corks and steels, that clutch has been fine with Newfren, and I still have some to use up. I've always used it with 16 'M' springs in it, which feels great, and I don't think has been any problem that's the first time I've done push-rod damage like that with it, and don't think the springs are the cause. Following on from yesterday's posts, I note that the DRT push-rod is a different beast, and clearly has some thought and better engineering in it as well as quality of manufacture; shame my Sip order just shipped, otherwise I'd have grabbed a couple of them.
As I have to give the rivets a little attention on that older clutch, it had crossed my mind that I might remove 4 of them and replace with welds, so 12-spring with 4-welds; might be best of both worlds, and 12 'M's might well be enough, or 8 'M's and 4 'L's' that's for the other engines anyway, the new one I'll either start with 16 'M', or 12 'M' and 4 'L'. Whether the Sip CR80 plates alone is enough to stop it slipping, or the springs need the smallest upgrade from 16 'M' I won't know until I try it.
Just for interest; a bloke on Facebook BGM group just posted a video, which showed a clutch, under a perspex cover, circulating the oil as it spins, which was quite informative, but I can't share the video here because it's a closed group. I did a screen capture though, and you can see how the channel (or groove) will catch the oil and feed it to where it's needed so best to put it back where it was:

https://youtu.be/5thrYtTQTzI
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2132
Location: London UK
Tue May 05, 2020 9:09 am quote
When you cut the channel be sure that it has a square leading edge. Slightly difficult to do but sure you will manage by now. I use a pointed cone but sure there are many bits that work.
Addicted
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 616
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Tue May 05, 2020 9:31 am quote
sime66 wrote:
The new clutch won't go in until I think it's perfect, Jack, and I'll give the adjusting the attention it warrants, rather than it just being last job after an engine swap, thinking of it as something I can tweak as I go along as long as I'm rolling. I'll also do the groove to replace the channel in the cover; that's a good plan and easy to do.
Swa that clutch has been great, and will easily go again in one of the DR engines (that's where it came from - it's been in both of them before); I don't think it'll need a band in those engines, but will have a reinforced circlip, and although I have two sets of Sip CR80 corks and steels, that clutch has been fine with Newfren, and I still have some to use up. I've always used it with 16 'M' springs in it, which feels great, and I don't think has been any problem that's the first time I've done push-rod damage like that with it, and don't think the springs are the cause. Following on from yesterday's posts, I note that the DRT push-rod is a different beast, and clearly has some thought and better engineering in it as well as quality of manufacture; shame my Sip order just shipped, otherwise I'd have grabbed a couple of them.
As I have to give the rivets a little attention on that older clutch, it had crossed my mind that I might remove 4 of them and replace with welds, so 12-spring with 4-welds; might be best of both worlds, and 12 'M's might well be enough, or 8 'M's and 4 'L's' that's for the other engines anyway, the new one I'll either start with 16 'M', or 12 'M' and 4 'L'. Whether the Sip CR80 plates alone is enough to stop it slipping, or the springs need the smallest upgrade from 16 'M' I won't know until I try it.
Just for interest; a bloke on Facebook BGM group just posted a video, which showed a clutch, under a perspex cover, circulating the oil as it spins, which was quite informative, but I can't share the video here because it's a closed group. I did a screen capture though, and you can see how the channel (or groove) will catch the oil and feed it to where it's needed so best to put it back where it was:

https://youtu.be/5thrYtTQTzI
I saw that and the different looking clutch basket.
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Tue May 05, 2020 10:06 am quote
I'm wondering if I had it right now, because I thought the back edge ought to be square, and had thought a chamfer on the leading edge would help. I've quickly marked the cover I took off on the weekend, which I won't be re-using, but it shows where I thought I'd smooth and chamfer where I previously removed the rib, and then create a channel with a back edge to collect the oil, so it can run down the original channel? Did I misunderstand? It did make me wonder why the rib was on that side in the first place. Obviously the marked-up profile is exaggerated, but shows which way I would have done it if you hadn't posted; you don't have an example do you?

Clutch Cover Oilway.jpg
Not like this then?

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2132
Location: London UK
Wed May 06, 2020 12:13 am quote
Exactly what I was thinking of, if not describing so well.
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Sun May 17, 2020 12:02 am quote
Self-isolating woodruff key.
I'll start with the summary to save anyone reading the following verbiage unwillingly; my woodruff key is in my gearbox and my primary is locked. I'm currently weighing up whether to split the engine in the car park, or to bring it inside. There are pros and cons of each, and I'm currently weighing them all up without going into miniscule detail of all factors here, but I will make the best decision for myself and the circumstances once I've thought it through; neither option appeals very much, but I'm going nowhere until I tackle it, fortunately going anywhere isn't such a big issue at present, and I have spare engine(s) so I'm fairly chilled, but still annoyed with myself.

The story below, which will update the build thread, and pre-empt any questions or advice for things I've already covered this can all be skipped; the necessary facts are in the paragraph above:

I grooved the oil way in the clutch cover, as discussed; did a few covers for the other engines too, whilst waiting for my Sip order to arrive.
I finally got the new clutch bell, corks and springs from Sip on Friday, and rebuilt my clutch with the Sip plates and corks, the 21T cog and baseplate from the old clutch (removed from BGM), new shim and bush, and 8 new 'M', and 4 new 'L' springs. Oiled it all with 10W-40 as I built it, and tested it as I went for all the necessary free movement, compression, smooth separation..... Overall very pleased with it and optimistic.
As I was a little concerned about it fouling the casings, I did a dry build in Old Faithful, which is still on my bench awaiting Barrel mods, and has the same casing mods for Cosa clutch. The O with the band is only 2.6mm greater than old clutch (118.2-115.6mm), and as I'd left a good gap before, the clearance looked good, so again optimistic but ready to check and file some out if I need to when I fit in BGM.
New clutch went in lovely, and I spent a good while getting the bite point just right, to ensure a gap between pad and plate, and clutch moved in fully at lever, so was clearing casings as I'd hoped, and as a visual inspection on fitting had suggested it would.
(I was a little surprised that I didn't need the clutch holding tool to torque it up, but though no more of it at the time, though in hindsight it was the point I should have realised something was not right).
All buttoned up, I then checked the kick-start, expecting it to turn over with clutch out, and not with clutch in, and maybe a bit of fine adjustment of clutch cable adjuster, but it was solid. I lifted the back wheel, which turned in neutral, but not in gear either with clutch in or out.
As it was getting time for all the dog-walking numpties to start stopping and talking to me when I was trying to think it through, I tidied the car park up, and brought all my tools inside for a ponder, and make a plan of action for Sunday morning.
I decided that I needed to know if lock-up was clutch, top-end or gearbox, so decided I needed to remove clutch, and pin it down;

If flywheel moved then top-end was OK it did.
If kick worked then Primary was OK it didn't.
If both worked then it was just the clutch no such luck....

Before that, on removing the clutch, I was concerned to see the woodruff key was missing! I started a careful search of surrounding area, but I think I must have pushed it out of the keyway on Saturday as I fiddled to get the clutch on, and it fell out, jamming the gears, which then allowed me to torque it up without the clutch holding tool. I am always so wary of losing the key, I still can't quite believe I did it, but I must have it's missing and the gearbox is locked-up.
So I got magnet on a stick, and tried to fish it out blind (but knowing it was jammed in the gears, so unlikely to be released with a little magnet). I also had a quick look with endoscope and laptop, but unable to see anything, and just as likely to lose endoscope in gearbox too, so binned that plan pretty sharpish.

My thinking now is that I will have to split the casings to retrieve it. That's where I'm at; I think clutch is nicely sorted, but have given myself something new to chew on.

This engine just seems to want to fight me; I just hope it's worth it......
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1443
Location: UK (South East)
Sun May 17, 2020 12:18 am quote
Sime, this happened to me. With the clutch cover off, I was able to turn the motor upside down, shake it around a bit and eventually the woodruff fell out. Not saying it's easy and quick, but you may be able to avoid splitting the case.
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Sun May 17, 2020 1:46 am quote
You're right; silly not to turn it over, tap and shake it a bit to see if I can free it from the teeth, where I imagine it's now lodged, and then maybe fish it with a magnet, before resorting to surgery. I think it's too jammed though, but worth a try.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2132
Location: London UK
Sun May 17, 2020 2:09 am quote
Highly unfortunate. Sometimes they shake out.

For next time, turn the crank so the key is at the top before pulling the clutch
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Sun May 17, 2020 2:40 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
For next time, turn the crank so the key is at the top before pulling the clutch
I always do, in fact to be extra careful this time, I made a note of where the crank web sits when the keyway is at top (image) approx TDC, so I could set it right (through my clear lid) before starting, and I've marked the keyways on clutch bells too, so I can do it with limited visibility under the frame (you can also build them so that the 'Sip' logo is horizontal at the bottom as a double-check), and I stuff a rag in until the spacer and woodruff key are sitting right; I couldn't have been more careful, but still cocked it up on installation though, not removal.

Don't matter now, got to be sorted....

My checks specifically to avoid doing this:

Crank - Keyway.jpg
Checking web to make sure keyway is at top

Clutch - Keyway.jpg
Building clutch so Sip logo is at bottom, as a double-check

Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1395
Location: california
Sun May 17, 2020 7:56 pm quote
Sime - one of the advantages of screwing things up regularly is - I am practiced at diving saves.

Suggestion: when something is caught in the gears - if you can cause a short, sharp, force, in a reverse direction - it may dislodge and fall out.
example - have it in gear, clutch pulled - roll backwards - drop clutch to engage.

Start small.
Move up.
The moment it works - you will know.
Then maybe another go with the magnet.

This same thing happened to me.
Ever since - my trick has been to put a paper towel in around the bottom where the woodroof key could pass the primary gear.
Slide clutch on just until it clears the tip of the key.
Use phone to confirm key is in place.
Pull paper towel and insert the rest of the way.

Good luck.
Still scarred form the near need to tear down from the time it fell in on mine...
-CM
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2505

Sun May 17, 2020 8:34 pm quote
I saw 3 or 4 guys at a rally who picked up a whole darn P2 scooter and flip it upside down in order to try to shake out the woodruff key. It was a horrific sight to behold!
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Sun May 17, 2020 11:23 pm quote
Cheers CM; not given up on fishing it out if I can get it loose. I'll use the engine on the bench to work out where it might have got to and to make some picks and hooks that might free it. I've also yet to go in through drain and filler, so might be lucky yet. I'm pretty sure that it jammed while I was torquing it and the kick is jammed now, but those are opposite rotations; maybe it's just in the bottom of casings and jamming in both directions.
Funny you should mention a paper towel; before this incident, which I've always been wary of, I had already started thinking about making a shield to prevent it, and had made a template but decided it was more likely to act as a chute for the key to follow down the hole; I made a little flap to catch it, but the flap stops it being slipped-in or withdrawn with the clutch in, so I need to make it sticky (greasy) or magnetic to catch the key. It's also no good if the key slips off when pulling the shield out - all in all i decided it wasn't going to help, so binned it. Pic of prototype and bendy-magnet Mk1 below; this experience has made me think persevering with the shield might be worthwhile. - How do you use your phone to confirm key is in place? I have the key in, slightly nose down at the front, so the clutch will slip over, and the back is prevented from slipping up by the spacer; it should be pretty impossible to do what I think I did, which must have been to push the front up and the key out.

Whodat; maybe I need the help of this chap!

https://youtu.be/rCiK-HYggrY

Woodruff Sheild.jpg

Molto Verboso
Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1033
Location: California
Mon May 18, 2020 9:24 am quote
man that blows sime66. Got lucky with the BGM clutch I just put in the key pushed out and dropped to the bottom of the case but came out with a magnet. Gearbox had no oil and did not rotate but I was nervous. Turns out the keyway slot on the new BGM clutch needed a little love.
Addicted
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 616
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Mon May 18, 2020 3:20 pm quote
https://www.amazon.com/customerpicks/explore-endoscope-inspection-cameras-for-iphone/91b0282714d9ec5be630


Would one of these fit in there to see the key?

Could a little thick grease be used to help hold the key in place?
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon May 25, 2020 6:01 pm quote
Doh! These clutches are killing us all lately!
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:09 am quote
The headline is that E#3 BGM is on my bench, split and woodruff key located (there's more though).
E#2 Tuned DR is now in my scooter, and should be fairly simple to get back to running nicely this coming weekend.
E#1 Old Faithful was completed to Covid Light plan a couple of weeks ago, ready to go in, but failed the pressure test and needs a new main crankside seal.

A bit more detail:

E#1: - I snook an update on that thread a couple of weeks ago; she's all done, but needs to be split for the seal, which isn't important because:
a) As it has to be split anyway, I might be better to wait until I can get the barrel skimmed and do Covid original plan (not Light) instead.
b) After splitting E#3 and seeing the problem with the primary input shaft, it is clear that my newest, true EFL engine, which is E#1 Old Faithful, would be the best engine to use for BGM; the concern I had with using a PX (E#3) for BGM seems to be reinforced by the failure of the shaft. That's something I'm pondering whilst E#1 and E#3 are both to hand.

E#2 tuned DR was running lovely when removed from scooter in spring and as E#1 wasn't going in before a split, I decided to use E#2 instead; I'd borrowed a few bits (stator, kytronik, clutch) for E#3 BGM, but other than replacing those, she was ready to run again. Kytronik is slightly suspect from when BGM was playing up but getting another chance, and E#2 now has new reinforced clutch as well, but is otherwise expected to be up and running quickly and will stay in the scooter until at least after MOT, and maybe rest of year, but that's subject to me thinking through what best to do with E#1 and E#3. If/when E#2 is back to as it was I'll be in no hurry to do another engine swap, or to make more work with it either; just get my MOT and catch a bit of summer.....

E#3 was swapped-out on the weekend, split and inspected (photos at bottom). The woodruff key was jammed between the primary and the casings pretty much where I had expected, but would never have come out without removing the primary. At some point I've also managed to break the primary input shaft; I'm confident this wasn't when I tried to kick it over because I was aware of the problem straight away and knew forcing it would damage my gears. I think I snapped it either when I was tightening the clutch (without the holder, which was a clue something was wrong), or that it had already been failing when the engine was running; it's a thinner diameter (step-down) shaft to fit EFL gears into PX casings, which I knew might be a weak point.
That's why I'm chewing over whether to put BGM on E#1 Old Faithful now instead (just some casings work). E#1 was EFL from factory, but I had to convert E#3. E#3 would then have some of the work already done (with a decent check of all timings) to be another (lightly) tuned DR, not straining the replacement step-down shaft too much. That's for me to chew over and decide anyway, but it's where I'm at.

Summary:
E#1 Old Faithful needs splitting, so might as well do more than just Covid Light.
E#2 Tuned DR is current engine in scooter for foreseeable, with MOT still being my priority.
E#3 BGM is in sick bay, and might not go back to being BGM anyway; undecided.......

My enthusiasm, my body and my workspace all continue to be unhelpful, but enough said on that other than to mention them as factors for me, rather than for general debate.

If the sun comes out, I'll be finally enjoying E#2 down the coast without a care, and fuck E#1 and E#3 for now.

Some pics of where's Woody:

1.jpg
wedged in tight and out of sight

2.jpg
sheared input shaft

3.jpg
the rest of the input shaft

4.jpg
casings

5.jpg
need a new one, but maybe not for BGM

Input Shaft Comparison THREE SHAFTS - dims.jpg
input shafts

VLX1M ENGINES SUMMARY.jpg
engines summary

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2132
Location: London UK
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:56 am quote
Can't believe that shaft snapped. All three are the same diameter at the snap point. Must have been old steel or flawed.
Lucky the Woodruff key fell inside. Could have been a disaster at speed if that came off at the other end too. Pulling the clutch wouldn't have helped with a seize from that.
Buy a new shaft for engine 3 and call it done. Could be back in before needing an MOT.
Maybe you're waiting for CM to finish his BGM?
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1443
Location: UK (South East)
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:10 am quote
You seem to be getting your fair share of issues at the moment. I must say that my VBC1M engine, now a BGM 187, has the narrower (weaker?) input shaft with an otherwise EFL gearbox conversion, and I've always wondered if it would be more prone to power/torque/lateral force related damage than my native EFL motors.
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:51 am quote
Swa, I just wasn't that surprised, given we know it's a weak/high-stress point. As a clue to their input shafts, how well is FA Italia driveshaft quality thought of? Even if the replacement shaft holds, the casings are prone to failure there; I do recall you or someone else asking, but (at the time) hadn't used them, or a more powerful engine. If asked now, I'd say the limit is close.
Jack, that shaft was new, bought when I was going to make these casings a Malossi 166, but they're not Piaggio; they're either FA Italia from Sip or OEM from SC (probably also FA Italia), I'm not aware of other options or a UK source, and dubious about replacing with same again anyway.
Given the weak point was the 11.5mm needle bearing surface, which as you say, is the same for all three input shafts, I wonder what benefit there is from using an FA/OEM stepped shaft again, rather than a used Piaggio P150X shaft and one of the 12x42x13mm bearings I bought to make that fit an EFL gear cluster. Either way it's not an expensive job, it looks like another German order, but is also not improving a weak point, which I was already concerned about, and which will remain a doubt if BGM stays on the PX casings. I'll get the replacement anyway, but not sure what option is best.

Anyway, sod it; I've got a decent reliable engine back in for the rest of the summer, and this ain't going to be a problem.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1443
Location: UK (South East)
Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:07 am quote
Interestingly, the one that you show as 'stepped' is exactly the same as the factory one in my VBC. I was able to use the same bearing as found in a PX150 (15mm ID) and an EFL xmas tree. I'm surprised your P150X took a 12mm ID bearing as that is a later engine than my VBC.

I believe that SIP does a Serie Pro version of the stepped input shaft, supposedly for a German PX80, in order to convert to EFL. Don't know if the Serie Pro label makes it any better though
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Location: Cornwall UK
Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:24 am quote
Yes 15mm ID bearing, the stepped shaft and an EFL cluster is what I did too, but with FA/OEM input shaft, which failed. I've noted what you've said and will look for a better option than the same again. It's, using Sip's way of describing it, wheel side 12mm, bearing seat 15mm, bushing 11,5mm. You reckon VBC was like that, and there's a Serie Pro to hunt down too; that sounds promising, cheers....

Serie Pro option:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/input+shaft+by+worb5+for+vespa+_88211000

I'm not well-versed on the older engines, but I think yours (150 super VBC1T to '79?) now links to the shaft I used; 12-15-11.5, and mine ('81) was originally 12-12-11.5, so seems to tie in with what we both have, but doesn't offer another alternative than the Serie Pro. But at least there's that option, though it still leaves the casings themselves as maybe suspect.

input shafts.jpg



Last edited by sime66 on Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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