Am I addicted? New project, but what is it?
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'63 VBB2T - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 250
Location: Belgium
Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:53 am quote
This looks hard to get out ad back in. Is it mandatory to replace it?

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Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2256
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:25 am quote
DD_VES wrote:
This looks hard to get out ad back in. Is it mandatory to replace it?
The driveshaft bearing should definitely be replaced. Get a heat gun and use it to heat the case. It will fall out with a tiny bit of tapping, and the new one will pretty much fall back in.

A heat gun makes a HUGE difference in the ease of working on these motors.
Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 250
Location: Belgium
Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:12 pm quote
chandlerman wrote:
DD_VES wrote:
This looks hard to get out ad back in. Is it mandatory to replace it?
The driveshaft bearing should definitely be replaced. Get a heat gun and use it to heat the case. It will fall out with a tiny bit of tapping, and the new one will pretty much fall back in.

A heat gun makes a HUGE difference in the ease of working on these motors.
I now know.. i used it today, works great!
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4887
Location: So Cal
Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:33 pm quote
Don’t be too quick to write off the rusty parts. You’d be surprised how well they clean up. This one was thick with rust, very useable now.

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Addicted
Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 631
Location: California
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:25 pm quote
Very exciting DD
Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 250
Location: Belgium
Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:32 am quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Don’t be too quick to write off the rusty parts. You’d be surprised how well they clean up. This one was thick with rust, very useable now.
Ok.. but mine is 3 mm’s too short
Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 250
Location: Belgium
Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:33 am quote
hibbert wrote:
Very exciting DD
thanks!
Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2256
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:29 am quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Don’t be too quick to write off the rusty parts. You’d be surprised how well they clean up. This one was thick with rust, very useable now.
Be careful using what SoCal used. It took the rust off, but it also washed the color out of his world and now he's stuck in Black and White!
Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 250
Location: Belgium
Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:58 am quote
continued today. Cases are empty, except for the crank oil seal. I need circlip pliers for that!

Also removed the engine bushings!

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Special extraction tool. Build from an umbrella foot :D

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Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 250
Location: Belgium
Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:01 am quote
Next will be to continue tear down of the front end, so that I’ll be able to bring the frame away soon.
Also need to order the parts to rebuild engine. Am a little affraid to order wrong parts.


Plans for now are:

- Pinasco Magny Cours 190cc
- Long stroke shaft (60mm)
- SI 24/24
- Cosa II clutch
- Pinasco Flytech ignition

Should become a fast scoot!

A little worried about the ignition, the jetting and the squish..
Remember, it’s my first rebuild...
Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2256
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:16 am quote
I'd suggest you look at the SIP/Vape Sport ignition over the Flytech.

I've had a couple flytech's and found them to be unreliable
Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 250
Location: Belgium
Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:31 am quote
Ok. Anyone has any recommandations on gearing?
22/67?
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4887
Location: So Cal
Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:16 am quote
8” or 10”?
Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 250
Location: Belgium
Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:15 pm quote
10 inch
Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 250
Location: Belgium
Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:32 am quote
OK..

engine setup is chosen and ordered:
Pinasco Magny Cours 190cc
Pinasco Racing Crankshaft 60mm
BGM Pro Fast Touring ignition
BGM Pro Superstrong clutch
BGM Pro SI 24/24E carb

And a complete overhaul off course.


I hope I'll be able to build this
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1216
Location: UK (South East)
Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:23 am quote
My two cents re: the gearing is that you may need to open up the cush drive to replace the springs. Shake the primary stack first to see if there are any rattles. If you do go ahead and replace the springs, you could use the double spring configuration of a P200 and you could install a primary with fewer teeth while you are at it. This would give you some more options for your gearing.

10" wheels and a 190 longstroke setup points to a 63T primary and a choice of 23T, 24T or 25T BGM Superstrong clutch.
Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 250
Location: Belgium
Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:43 am quote
swa45 wrote:
My two cents re: the gearing is that you may need to open up the cush drive to replace the springs. Shake the primary stack first to see if there are any rattles. If you do go ahead and replace the springs, you could use the double spring configuration of a P200 and you could install a primary with fewer teeth while you are at it. This would give you some more options for your gearing.

10" wheels and a 190 longstroke setup points to a 63T primary and a choice of 23T, 24T or 25T BGM Superstrong clutch.
I've ordered a primary rebuild kit.
Strange thing is that, here in Europe, people advise 23/67 for this setup..
Enthusiast
P Series / Li / LML / Motobi
Joined: 24 Jun 2019
Posts: 96
Location: 3rd Rock From the Sun
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:12 am quote
for my 2 cents worth, cranks to idle gear ratios not real wheel ratios!!

63 / 25 = 2.52
63 / 24 = 2.625
63 / 23 =2.739
Are quite high unless you have a bucket full of torque to pull it and dont mind dropping a gear in a slight headwind or up an incline

68 / 22 = 3.090
67 / 22 = 3.045
are good options and will give a tractable motor, but not a spectacular top end speed

67 / 23 = 2.913
i'm not sure it will physically fit but it a good ratio to aim for
Enthusiast
P Series / Li / LML / Motobi
Joined: 24 Jun 2019
Posts: 96
Location: 3rd Rock From the Sun
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:24 am quote
on my 210 malossi with Taffspeed pipe, I run a

65 / 24 = 2.708 with a 36 tooth 4th gear
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1216
Location: UK (South East)
Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:15 am quote
Gravelrash, you may be right. I know Scooter Center suggests 23/64 for the BGM177 kit, which does have very good torque in my experience, but I'm not sure how a Pinasco Magny Cours compares.
Enthusiast
P Series / Li / LML / Motobi
Joined: 24 Jun 2019
Posts: 96
Location: 3rd Rock From the Sun
Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:44 am quote
swa45 wrote:
Gravelrash, you may be right. I know Scooter Center suggests 23/64 for the BGM177 kit, which does have very good torque in my experience, but I'm not sure how a Pinasco Magny Cours compares.
65/23 = 2.82 (standard P200 "primaries")
64/23 = 2.78 (upgear aftermarket kit)

You may be able so save a few euros and stick a standard P200 clutch centre and Primary just to test, they are very "close" in terms of ratio there is less than half a crank rotation in it so it may be a good cheap test for you. they can usually be picked up quite cheaply online at the likes of ebay etc

mosey on over to
http://gearingcalc.free.fr/

and this should show you some options and how close the results will be
Molto Verboso
Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956 - Moto Guzzi Airone 250 Sport 1951
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 1774
Location: Latina (Italy)
Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:02 am quote
DD_VES...you are "bravissimo", i bring you my V33T 125 that i can not restore to and i never decide.
Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 250
Location: Belgium
Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:06 am quote
Made some cartersoup today... lots of work, a little headache from the gas fumes, but happy with the result!

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Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 250
Location: Belgium
Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:06 am quote
Carter

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Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 250
Location: Belgium
Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:09 am quote
Result

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Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 250
Location: Belgium
Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:11 am quote
Another one

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Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 250
Location: Belgium
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:19 am quote
Waiting for my part for the engine to arrive (probably tomorrow), I continued on the dismantling of the frame and the front end.

There’s a nasty rust hole in the frame, at the rear..

I hope this can be fixed from underneath...

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Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 250
Location: Belgium
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:23 am quote
The dismantling of the front end was trickier than I thought it would be.
Spent a lot of thime getting the lower bearing and mudguard off...

I am unable to figure out how to remove the last bolt, the one the suspension pivots on.. It appears to be covered by the outer ring on the hub. An idea someone?

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The bolt

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Overview of the hub, with the disc around it.

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Close-up of where the ring is covering the bolt...

Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 250
Location: Belgium
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:28 am quote
I was VERY happy with my “unique” alloy rims...
I was even happier when I dismantled the first one and noticed the tyre was not sticking at all, contrary to a steel rim...

The paint is coming off, so the plan was to have them sanded and resprayed.. That will not be necessary anymore...

When I started the second one.. I forgot to release teh tire pressure before...


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Loved these rims...

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Oups...

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Thrashed...

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7339
Location: seattle/athens
Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:48 pm quote
You may be saved still. The back side broke & I think these are the same on most FA Italia wheels. Mercato in USA has them here http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Rims/5510 , but you should be able to find something you can use there too. Lucky the outer is OK!

This one's an auction in Japan? for 2 wheels, 2 different sizes?
https://www.croooober.com/en/item/bparts/00000572/Rims-&-Tires/9666620/F.-A.-Italia-Aluminum-Wheels-Front-And-Rear-Set-Vespa-PX-150
https://img1.croooober.com/api/v1/photo/ec/dw=700;dh=;/00000/0030/0030572/0030572031904/0030572031904s9.jpg

or new in Greece for just one
https://www.scootershop.gr/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=15&products_id=4871&osCsid=immh6ngaj2djhddvmj5evtod32
Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 250
Location: Belgium
Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:00 pm quote
Thanks!

Now.. I must say they broke pretty easily, so not sure I would like to ride these in fact...
Enthusiast
P Series / Li / LML / Motobi
Joined: 24 Jun 2019
Posts: 96
Location: 3rd Rock From the Sun
Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:25 am quote
DD_VES wrote:
Made some cartersoup today... lots of work, a little headache from the gas fumes, but happy with the result!
What is CARTERSOUP ??
Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 250
Location: Belgium
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:10 am quote
Gravelrash2004 wrote:
DD_VES wrote:
Made some cartersoup today... lots of work, a little headache from the gas fumes, but happy with the result!
What is CARTERSOUP ??
gas with carters in it
Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 250
Location: Belgium
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:23 am quote
Was able to get some work done today..

Managed to open the primary, put double springs in it and close it again more or less correctly.
Also managed to get the bearing of the rear axle in the case. And the engine mounts!
After that, I remove the tab in the case in order to be able to fit the large clutch.
Also discovered there were a few items of my order missing, amongst which the seals. So unable to continue the engine for the moment.

Also good news.. SC made an mistake and sent me a Vespone instead of a Magny Cours. So the engine config has changed a little in regards to the top end.

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Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1216
Location: UK (South East)
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:20 am quote
Are you sure that's not a Magny Cours? The base gasket looks different on a Vespone because they have bigger transfers where the cylinder meets the casing. My Magny Cours also came with the A3703 head (extra 4 bolts). For some reason, they still show the old head in the photos.
Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 250
Location: Belgium
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:49 pm quote
swa45 wrote:
Are you sure that's not a Magny Cours? The base gasket looks different on a Vespone because they have bigger transfers where the cylinder meets the casing. My Magny Cours also came with the A3703 head (extra 4 bolts). For some reason, they still show the old head in the photos.
Well.. not anymore.

Not sure how to see the difference between the two...
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:07 pm quote
those are some serious transfers, but it's nice because it looks like an easy bit of grinding to accommodate them. Are there issues of breaking through, or is there enough meat there to do it without issue?
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1216
Location: UK (South East)
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:35 pm quote
When I ported my VBC cases (150 Super), there was enough meat for that Pinasco base gasket. The older small block cases are much better than the late ones in that regard. You just need to watch the profile/angle as you grind down into the case. You can see here in the first few photos of my build:

VBC1M (190 Super) engine build

My plans started with a Magny Cours in mind and so my case porting was based on the Pinasco base gasket, but I ended up using a BGM 177 kit, so I had to modify the cylinder to suit the ported cases.

To check which kit you actually have, the label on the packaging should have the Pinasco product number. Just check this against Pinasco's catalog on their website (should be 25031941) or check out this link to SIP:

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/racing+cylinder+pinasco+magny_84119100

The Magny Cours is a good choice for your engine as it is the pre-P series style, which some say is weaker in certain areas, like the narrow taper crankshaft for example. Best not to go crazy with the horsepower.
Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 250
Location: Belgium
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:53 pm quote
sdjohn wrote:
those are some serious transfers, but it's nice because it looks like an easy bit of grinding to accommodate them. Are there issues of breaking through, or is there enough meat there to do it without issue?
I am not going to do any grinding. It’ll be fast enough plug&play.
Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 250
Location: Belgium
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:35 am quote
swa45 wrote:
Are you sure that's not a Magny Cours? The base gasket looks different on a Vespone because they have bigger transfers where the cylinder meets the casing. My Magny Cours also came with the A3703 head (extra 4 bolts). For some reason, they still show the old head in the photos.
I looked into this, and it appears that they now send the magny cours with the same cilinder head. Besides the gasket, I have no idea what the differences are between both kits...
So: it’s a Magny Cours again!
Team Scooter Trash for Petfinder Foundation   Vespa Wasp Pin Badges   AF1 Racing Vespa Austin
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