500 ownership driving tip to avoid cracked pistons
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Hooked
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 443
Location: tampa
Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:41 pm quote
these engines are well known to crack ring lands . the why some bikes suffer and others not was had me praying my engine would stay healthy. but now I am quite certain I know why.

I have noticed a loud cracking noise coming from the engine area. it would happen accelerating hard, snapping throttle wide open, after coming around a slow corner. it had to happen more than a few times before I realized that has to be cylinder detonation. and once I realized that it then became clear you dont get many of these before the ring lands crack. SEVERE detonation. the loudest sharpest I have heard. it only lasts a split second but thats all it takes.

so now I am trying to change my driving habits. no more snapping throttle open when engine is at lower rpms.so now I go 65% for a split second before going wide open. strange but it never knocks when drag racing from a stop. it only does it from a slow roll. my good friend drives beo 460 and he said he hears same noise under same conditions. its also not low octane fuel related. I have used lower octane fuel to get extra zip, but switching back to 93 doesnt eliminate this extreme knock condition.

Last edited by jerryd on Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:04 am; edited 1 time in total
Hooked
Gilera Fuoco
Joined: 17 Sep 2017
Posts: 112
Location: Birmingham, England
Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:38 am quote
I think it would be a lot easier to moderate your riding style, rather than force the machinery to rise to your expectations.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 7498
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:21 am quote
60,000 miles of spirited riding and no problem.
Always run 91 octane or higher.
Little to no WOT for any amount of time.
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 500
Joined: 21 Nov 2017
Posts: 211
Location: Austin, TX
Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:48 am quote
It could be related to aftermarket exhausts and doing the airbox mod for greater airflow, which allows for higher compression, which increases the chance of detonation. I know my bike has both (an airbox mod and a free-flowing exhaust) and it had the cracked piston land. But it took 43,000 miles to get there. I suspect that stock bikes, if driven moderately, will have no problems.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 5464
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:55 am quote
Squeazel wrote:
It could be related to aftermarket exhausts and doing the airbox mod for greater airflow, which allows for higher compression, which increases the chance of detonation. I know my bike has both (an airbox mod and a free-flowing exhaust) and it had the cracked piston land. But it took 43,000 miles to get there. I suspect that stock bikes, if driven moderately, will have no problems.
I'm a skeptic regarding both of these.
How many cracked lands are out there, where the scooter had neither of these done?

I'm less skeptical about the theory about a bad batch of pistons with no radius at the root of the ring groove, or the effect of too low octane fuel being used.
Hooked
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 443
Location: tampa
Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:59 pm quote
both bikes I refer to have stock exhausts. but very possible removing the restrictive intake tube is the cause. the intake diameter of restrictive tube is like less than a nickel in size. and the throttle body tube is like a silver dollar size. so flow through TB is tamed and smoothed by the restrictive tube.

I do plan to tune the ecu. hopefully this condition can be tuned out. just havent seen the resolution of the maps. or what they use for compensations.
Hooked
2019 MP3 500hpe Sport
Joined: 03 Nov 2014
Posts: 454
Location: Germany
Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:50 pm quote
Squeazel wrote:
It could be related to aftermarket exhausts and doing the airbox mod for greater airflow, which allows for higher compression, which increases the chance of detonation. I know my bike has both (an airbox mod and a free-flowing exhaust) and it had the cracked piston land. But it took 43,000 miles to get there. I suspect that stock bikes, if driven moderately, will have no problems.
HUH??? Compression will not change because you put a different exhaust or airbox mod. Compression is always fixed and never changes unless you change the piston (non stock) or change you head gasket (different thickness).
Hooked
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 443
Location: tampa
Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:35 am quote
for the purpose of this conversation his statement is correct when referring to dynamic compression. sucking in more air then compressed into the same size space is increasing compression while engine is running. resulting in more power. and indeed increasing possible incidence of detonation.

motors are pretty simple when you break it down. they are air pumps.

suck squish bang blow

sucking in more air results in increased squish which makes a bigger bang.

typical running psi in a cylinder is 1600 psi
typical turbo eng of same size (even though static compression is lowered from 10 to 8
) is around 2600psi

detonation is a rapid uncontrolled burn. cylinder compression sky rockets to 4000 psi. and the piston is not in a position to push and rotate the crank. the piston is at or near tdc. so the cylinder head flexes from the pressure its not designed to handle. compression escapes past the head gasket and burns it while doing so. thus the term blown head gasket.

in this case our ring lands crack from the pressure.
Hooked
Gilera Fuoco
Joined: 17 Sep 2017
Posts: 112
Location: Birmingham, England
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:11 am quote
Detonation and Pre-Ignition > http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue54/EngineBasics.html
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
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Posts: 7498
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:50 am quote
That is why Mascor says use 91 octane or higher and you wont have a problem.
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Granturismo 218
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 5609
Location: South Carolina
Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:32 am quote
jerryd wrote:
detonation is a rapid uncontrolled burn. cylinder compression sky rockets to 4000 psi. and the piston is not in a position to push and rotate the crank. the piston is at or near tdc. so the cylinder head flexes from the pressure its not designed to handle. compression escapes past the head gasket and burns it while doing so. thus the term blown head gasket.

in this case our ring lands crack from the pressure.
Cracked ring lands became an issue in this motor when Piaggio punched out the cylinder from 460 to 490. I think it's a combination of increased piston slap, leaving 5w-40 motor oil made for diesel engines in for 6000 miles, and long stretches at high speed that are more common in the US than in Europe.

Last edited by Motovista on Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:41 am; edited 1 time in total
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 5464
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:39 am quote
Motovista wrote:
jerryd wrote:
for the purpose of this conversation his statement is correct when referring to dynamic compression. sucking in more air then compressed into the same size space is increasing compression while engine is running. resulting in more power. and indeed increasing possible incidence of detonation.

motors are pretty simple when you break it down. they are air pumps.

suck squish bang blow

sucking in more air results in increased squish which makes a bigger bang.

typical running psi in a cylinder is 1600 psi
typical turbo eng of same size (even though static compression is lowered from 10 to 8
) is around 2600psi

detonation is a rapid uncontrolled burn. cylinder compression sky rockets to 4000 psi. and the piston is not in a position to push and rotate the crank. the piston is at or near tdc. so the cylinder head flexes from the pressure its not designed to handle. compression escapes past the head gasket and burns it while doing so. thus the term blown head gasket.

in this case our ring lands crack from the pressure.
Cracked ring lands became an issue in this motor when Piaggio punched out the cylinder from 460 to 490. I think it's a combination of increased piston slap, leaving 5w-40 motor oil made for diesel engines in for 6000 miles, and long stretches at high speed that are more common in the US than in Europe.
Certainly some data points will be outside the normal (I'm used to that).

It's just that, I have used Shell Rotella T6 5W40 (that diesel stuff), and commuted ~135 miles per day, for about 46,000 miles now.

I *ALWAYS* use high octane fuel (called premium around here, not sure why). And probably 95% of the time ethanol free, not that I think that has anything to do with it.
Ossessionato
2016 MP3/500 Sport ABS, 2009 MP3/250, 2012 GTS Super 300ie
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Location: Marietta, GA
Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:54 am quote
See Below Signature Line...
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Granturismo 218
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 5609
Location: South Carolina
Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:57 am quote
Madison Sully wrote:
Certainly some data points will be outside the normal (I'm used to that).

It's just that, I have used Shell Rotella T6 5W40 (that diesel stuff), and commuted ~135 miles per day, for about 46,000 miles now.

I *ALWAYS* use high octane fuel (called premium around here, not sure why). And probably 95% of the time ethanol free, not that I think that has anything to do with it.
And you also take excellent care of your vehicles. If you look at vehicles with very specific problems, the transmission in the Ford Windstar comes to mind, the problem occurred in a higher than normal percentage of them, but not every single one of them. Some that were babied developed problems, and some that were driven like they were stolen didn't. If you look at a list of cars with over one million miles on them, you learn more about their owners and very little about what brand or model of car is going to be the most reliable.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT
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Posts: 5464
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:02 am quote
Motovista wrote:
Madison Sully wrote:
Certainly some data points will be outside the normal (I'm used to that).

It's just that, I have used Shell Rotella T6 5W40 (that diesel stuff), and commuted ~135 miles per day, for about 46,000 miles now.

I *ALWAYS* use high octane fuel (called premium around here, not sure why). And probably 95% of the time ethanol free, not that I think that has anything to do with it.
And you also take excellent care of your vehicles. If you look at vehicles with very specific problems, the transmission in the Ford Windstar comes to mind, the problem occurred in a higher than normal percentage of them, but not every single one of them. Some that were babied developed problems, and some that were driven like they were stolen didn't. If you look at a list of cars with over one million miles on them, you learn more about their owners and very little about what brand or model of car is going to be the most reliable.
Aww, shucks.
I only had ~265,000 miles on my Ford Focus when I sold it.
Ran perfectly fine at the time, I just wanted something newer.
Hooked
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 443
Location: tampa
Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:18 am quote
Quote:
It's just that, I have used Shell Rotella T6 5W40 (that diesel stuff), and commuted ~135 miles per day, for about 46,000 miles now.
diesel oil is superior to car oil as far as I am concerned. the best additive oil can contain is zinc. diesel oil contains far more zinc than car oil. car oils have strict limits as to how zinc can be used. the zinc is said to damage and clog converters. oils sold as racing oils also contain high levels of zinc.

I have noticed car engines run very quiet on diesel oil. at least when it first goes in.

http://superoilcentral.com/high-zddp-motor-oil/
Hooked
2019 MP3 hpe 500 sport Advanced " Missy "
Joined: 21 Dec 2018
Posts: 249
Location: West Germany
Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:43 am quote
jerryd wrote:
for the purpose of this conversation his statement is correct when referring to dynamic compression. sucking in more air then compressed into the same size space is increasing compression while engine is running. resulting in more power. and indeed increasing possible incidence of detonation.

motors are pretty simple when you break it down. they are air pumps.

suck squish bang blow

sucking in more air results in increased squish which makes a bigger bang.

typical running psi in a cylinder is 1600 psi
typical turbo eng of same size (even though static compression is lowered from 10 to 8
) is around 2600psi

detonation is a rapid uncontrolled burn. cylinder compression sky rockets to 4000 psi. and the piston is not in a position to push and rotate the crank. the piston is at or near tdc. so the cylinder head flexes from the pressure its not designed to handle. compression escapes past the head gasket and burns it while doing so. thus the term blown head gasket.

in this case our ring lands crack from the pressure.
Or busted Pistonrod or severly damaged Engine! Don't forget to raise fuel consumption to pass with raised Airflow or you'll damage the Piston by running too lean. I sure you know this so consider it a reminder
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2219
Location: Starfleet Command, South Eastern UK HQ
Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:37 am quote
Ok, so my view on cracked piston ring lands is this. Over this side of the pond we don't see hardly any cracked piston ring lands. But I have heard of a few.

I've dyno'd a few too to upgrade owners exhaust systems. The bikes were brought to me to check the fuel and ignition mapping to make sure the motors run correctly with the right fuel burn ratio etc etc across the rev range with the new aftermarket exhaust. I always dyno before and after fitting the new exhaust.

What I noticed on several bikes is that the standard maps, even with the standard exhausts seems to run lean at various points in the rev range. This could explain the detonation Jerry is talking about. I've been able to flash a new map to the ecu and the issue of too lean is cured with the standard exhaust and no other mods. With aftermarket exhausts I used PC3 to mod the fuelling.

Additionally, the fuel economy improved on bikes that I've done that too even though the fuelling has been richened by 2.5% at some revs. The reason of course is you don't need so much throttle to provide the power, which is then improved. And no detonation!

Detonation doesn't appear to be a problem overall on these bikes. But proper maintenance is. Messing with airboxes, airfilters, spark plugs etc all increase the risk of upsetting the design parameters for induction leading to detonation.
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
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Location: Starfleet Command, South Eastern UK HQ
Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:09 am quote
jerryd wrote:
Quote:
It's just that, I have used Shell Rotella T6 5W40 (that diesel stuff), and commuted ~135 miles per day, for about 46,000 miles now.
diesel oil is superior to car oil as far as I am concerned. the best additive oil can contain is zinc. diesel oil contains far more zinc than car oil. car oils have strict limits as to how zinc can be used. the zinc is said to damage and clog converters. oils sold as racing oils also contain high levels of zinc.

I have noticed car engines run very quiet on diesel oil. at least when it first goes in.

http://superoilcentral.com/high-zddp-motor-oil/
We didn't test that oil at our development centre Jerry. But we tested most other synthetic diesel oils available at the time and found the oil film strengths to be in the regions of 65,000psi to 71,000psi using internationally recognised testing standards. These diesel oils also had poor oil film cling rates at high revs in mc engines allowing metal to metal contact on hot engines. Other testing houses have found the same. Fully synthetic motorcycle oils have a much higher extreme pressure oil film strength than either synthetic diesel oils or specific synthetic car oils and a fantastic cling rate during hot, high rev usage. No metal to metal contact. So no need to use that stuff you link to. But it's a personal choice. But proper M/C oils do the same job I assure you without the danger to your CAT.

Typically we found m/c oils provided oil film strength in the regions of 89,000psi to 110,000psi, with some speciality m/c oils offering 119,000psi or near to that. Car oils (synthetic) came out between 69,000psi-85,000psi depending on brand. Mineral oils for cars offered the lowest psi rating at around 61,000psi to 65,000psi.

It's notable that 0-20 and 0-30 synthetic oils provided some of the best oil film strength, and of course the best flow rates giving the very best engine protection. Almost non of these oils contained zddp additives which are now virtually outlawed in the EU and are completely unnecessary with todays modern extreme pressure alternatives. Of course we now have Petrol Particulate Filters widely fitted to EU cars and these require the latest spec oils. ZDDP destroys them as it does CATS.

I'm not turning this into an oil thread. Just saying what we found and what others have found. I could go into lots and lots of technical stuff and give a whole bunch of extra verifiable information, but not going to do that as folks generally don't want to hear it. That's fine!
Hooked
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 443
Location: tampa
Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:39 am quote
if your engine only ever sees a need for 40,000psi the higher numbers may not be as helpful as you think. what is important in my experience is how well the oil works when there IS friction. there is lots of friction during startup and the first few seconds of running. there is increased friction when carbon starts contaminating oil from increased blow by. and the worst engine killing friction occurs once detonation puts small metal particles in the oil.

I dont really want to get into oil conversation either.

brad penn mineral oil is well known to be some of the best oil you can buy in america. it is a mineral oil with high 1200ppm, mineral oils are stickier than synthetics. sticky is a very good thing. especially when you are suspending ulta slippery solids like zinc. there is feedback from unbiased users.nitro engines are extreme as it gets. oil contamination at the extreme. it runs at like 1.5 fuel to air ratio. hardly any air compared to 12/1 for gas. you have to change oil after each pass. exuberant reports brad penn oil is gods gift to nitro and methanol engines. engines lasting five times longer before rebuilds needed.

big tip from me would be keep engine oil clean. cheap oil changed at 1000 miles is far better than the best oil you can buy that you want to leave in for 5000 because you want to get yours moneys worth.

I also learn tid bit about oil. its not same worldwide. oils used in japan are stunningly good. I dont know what additives they use but taking engines and transmission apart that lived there is like a religious experience. moving parts look better than new. they got the lock down on how to make good oil. it is indeed super sticky. thats about all I know about it.

and on detonation as it relates to my 500ie. its not happening at wide open throttle mid to high rpm. I dog my bike hard. and on 89 octane. rode tonight on cooler night air. this engine loves the cooler air. gets a nice boost in power. I paid extra close attention to engine sounds. this engine is happy to be run hard. it just doesnt like the snap open throttle from low rpm. not at all something thats done on the dyno.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 7498
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:56 am quote
jerryd wrote:
Quote:
It's just that, I have used Shell Rotella T6 5W40 (that diesel stuff), and commuted ~135 miles per day, for about 46,000 miles now.
diesel oil is superior to car oil as far as I am concerned. the best additive oil can contain is zinc. diesel oil contains far more zinc than car oil. car oils have strict limits as to how zinc can be used. the zinc is said to damage and clog converters. oils sold as racing oils also contain high levels of zinc.

I have noticed car engines run very quiet on diesel oil. at least when it first goes in.

http://superoilcentral.com/high-zddp-motor-oil/
Tell that to the guys at Shell, was in a meeting at the International Engine Plant in Indianapolis and they said is wasn't ever the best oil for a car non the less a motorcycle. The high detergents in the motor for soot control was one reason. They emphasized they made different oils for different engines for a reason to use use the right oil as recommended by the engine manufacture and the oil manufacturer. i.e. don't use diesel oil in a gas motor. It will work and you may have no problem, but the oil blended to meet the needs of what you drive is even better.
Hooked
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 443
Location: tampa
Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:25 am quote
I would be happy to tell shell they dont know anything about oil. I dont care who makes it. I just use it and observe results.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 7498
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:32 am quote
jerryd wrote:
I would be happy to tell shell they dont know anything about oil. I dont care who makes it. I just use it and observe results.
And that is why I don't take your advice. I listen to people that learn and increase their knowledge of the industry while they are working in it. As apposed to sticking with old knowledge that is outdated for 20 years.
Hooked
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
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Posts: 443
Location: tampa
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:44 am quote
its all good. I dont learn ANYTHING form your posts either. so feel free to use the ignore jerryd button. I am happy to ignore your know it all posts. go back to your clearly miserable life while I go back to my happy one.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 7498
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:52 am quote
Yep terrible life, I have to work every day, oh wait that was the old schedule
I have a great life now I work 12 hours every Mon, Tue, Wed and every other Sun.
Off the rest of the time. So yes have 3 days off one week and 4 days off the next it's terrible. Oh and vacation, I take 3 days vacation and I get 10 days off. (only have to take 8 hours, they don;t force me to take 12.)
Suffer suffer. And I have been with the company for 14 years so I get 5 weeks vacation.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 5464
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Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:56 am quote
I get a kick out of it when people say things like "Yeah, well I'm going to ignore you now" and proceed to do the exact opposite.

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
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Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:34 am quote
Madison Sully wrote:
I get a kick out of it when people say things like "Yeah, well I'm going to ignore you now" and proceed to do the exact opposite.

Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2219
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Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:18 am quote
Sorry, got to laugh at some posts. No matter....
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
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Posts: 2219
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Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:19 am quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
jerryd wrote:
Quote:
It's just that, I have used Shell Rotella T6 5W40 (that diesel stuff), and commuted ~135 miles per day, for about 46,000 miles now.
diesel oil is superior to car oil as far as I am concerned. the best additive oil can contain is zinc. diesel oil contains far more zinc than car oil. car oils have strict limits as to how zinc can be used. the zinc is said to damage and clog converters. oils sold as racing oils also contain high levels of zinc.

I have noticed car engines run very quiet on diesel oil. at least when it first goes in.

http://superoilcentral.com/high-zddp-motor-oil/
Tell that to the guys at Shell, was in a meeting at the International Engine Plant in Indianapolis and they said is wasn't ever the best oil for a car non the less a motorcycle. The high detergents in the motor for soot control was one reason. They emphasized they made different oils for different engines for a reason to use use the right oil as recommended by the engine manufacture and the oil manufacturer. i.e. don't use diesel oil in a gas motor. It will work and you may have no problem, but the oil blended to meet the needs of what you drive is even better.
Absolutely WEB-Tech, fully agree.
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
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Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:16 am quote
[quote="jerryd"]I would be happy to tell shell they dont know anything about oil. I dont care who makes it. I just use it and observe results. [/quote

Seriously! Respectfully suggest you do more observing jerry. To be clear, from some of the statements you've made earlier in this thread it's easy to see you don't actually know much about oil at a technical level. But that's ok because most people don't. Why would they? But coming from you, someone who purports to be building race engines and gearboxes, yet often seems to have difficulty understanding basic engine engineering facts, I find this rather surprising. Anyhoo...it doesn't matter. You must do as you think best for your bike, but best not to give it as advice. Newbies can be easily misled to doing something that is not best for their bikes. Have a good un!
Hooked
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 443
Location: tampa
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:12 am quote
I havent given any bad advice on oil.

you guys have no clue how much mechanic experience I have. the good kind. the experimental kind . you guys make it clear you know everything. which is indeed funny to me.

so on the subject at hand you are giving advice that people should use oil designed specifically for high revving motor cycle engines. motor cycle engines today are revving twice as high as car engines. 8000 rpm compare to 16000 rpm. yeah big difference.

so my question becomes when you are talking to guys at shell are you telling them your engine is like more like a car engine or more like a motorcycle engine? did you consider the rpm of our engines? oops

feel free to give good advice. feel free to be insulting while doing it. especially to my comments. those are the things you do best.
Hooked
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
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Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:47 am quote
then there is the painfully obvious to me. the oil you use in the engine has NOTHING to do with engine detonation. which is what the thread is about.
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
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Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:58 am quote
No jerry, no one is trying to disrespect you. It's just that you come out with some real corkers sometimes. And that's ok.Just ask if you want to know anything and someone on the board will probably have the answer. In this case it's me talking to you. I spent 15 years working with the oil guys as those are the guys that are key to engine development. If I don't know something, I ask and I get answers.

For example, in one of your posts above you talk about mineral oil being very very sticky as if you think that is how you get oil to cling to fast moving motor parts. Well, it isn't.

The best way is to use a free flowing fully synthetic oil. It can be 0-20 or 0-30 or whatever. But the way it clings to fast moving engine parts, especially in motorcycles is through the process known as electrostatic cling. The oil guys (Tribologists) design the additive packages that are put into motorcycle oils to have a certain molecular structure made from materials that are actually attracted to metal parts in the engine. This prevents them from being flung off the faster moving parts.

In cheap mineral oils they don't usually have much if any electrostatic cling so the oil film strength is very very low in those oils. We found you get frequent metal to metal contact even with hot engines using that type of oil. Engine wear always increases with that sort of oil without exception. I know this because of the testing and engine blueprinting that we did to actually see what the results were. That's how I know this stuff. It's my field of engineering. And of course, it's proven by other testing houses too. You don't have to look far to find the evidence.

But like I said above, it's up to you what you chose to believe and what you do with your own bike.
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
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Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:00 am quote
jerryd wrote:
then there is the painfully obvious to me. the oil you use in the engine has NOTHING to do with engine detonation. which is what the thread is about.
You'd think so wouldn't you, but that isn't always the case. But I'm gonna leave it there as it's not going to go anywhere is it. And as you say we are off topic. But it's interesting eh! Bye for now.
Hooked
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 443
Location: tampa
Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:10 am quote
and then you argue a useless point. and avoid the one that matters.

your point: mineral oil while sticky does not help oil stay on moving parts. ( i disagree and so would Motul which uses mineral based oil, but its not relevant)

my point: the 500 engine we are talking about here in this thread isnt a motorcycle engine, it is a small low revving car engine. AS FAR AS DESIGNING OIL, whether its going into a car or into a high revving 16,000 rpm motorcycle engine.

but thanks for putting me into my place. I will be sure to ask questions on stuff I am not sure about. thanks for that great advice.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:16 am quote
jerryd wrote:
and then you argue a useless point. and avoid the one that matters.

your point: mineral oil while sticky does not help oil stay on moving parts. ( i disagree and so would Motul which uses mineral based oil, but its not relevant)

my point: the 500 engine we are talking about here in this thread isnt a motorcycle engine, it is a small low revving car engine. AS FAR AS DESIGNING OIL, whether its going into a car or into a high revving 16,000 rpm motorcycle engine.

but thanks for putting me into my place. I will be sure to ask questions on stuff I am not sure about. thanks for that great advice.
So RPM designate engine type? So a Harley, BMW, Gold Wing and Moto Guzi are all car engines by your definition?

You are really show your lack of knowledge of oil dude

And nope Motul doesn't use Synthetic base oil do they? Oh wait from their website, "MOTUL 300V Engine Oil. DESCRIPTION: 300V Motorsport range of lubricants is specifically formulated for racing applications. They are based around Motul's unique ESTER CoreŽ technology, which combines the best performing synthetic base oils including esters with bespoke dedicated chemical additives."
Hooked
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 443
Location: tampa
Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:17 am quote
since you insist to throw insults:

not only is RPM an important function of a "motorcycle engine oil"
but the fact motorcycles engine oil shares a sump for oil that is lubricating transmission gear sets as well. so yeah, my point is pretty embarrassing for you know it alls. the 500 engine on my scooter is perfectly happy running oils made for cars and trucks that I found to work well in my high performance cars that make triple the output the dealer give us.

when can we stop talking about oil and continue the conversation about low rpm, high load detonation on my 500 mini car engine??? cause the way this thread reads I can picture a newbie coming into this thread because he hears the same detonation I hear. then after reading comments by web-tech and stormrider and go out and purchase oil made for motorcycles. hoping that will solve his problem.
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2219
Location: Starfleet Command, South Eastern UK HQ
Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:01 am quote
Sure, I only mentioned it because you brought oil into it. I just wanted to make sure you knew the reality. I'm sure that others only had that in mind too.

But jerry, have you had the head off your bike yet? In addition to the other things mentioned in posts above, don't forget that another key issue causing detonation can be carbon build up on valves and piston/s. Even a carboned up injector can cause it. But any bike could be prone to detonation if you just wack the throttle open, especially if it's an older engine that isn't set up right. Running a spark plug that is "too hot" for the motor will do it too. I'm assuming you have checked that though.

The best way to diagnose this is the dyno. It'll tell you loads about where you fuelling is going wrong, the most usual cause. I'm guessing you are lean in lots of places especially since your mods to the airbox. You will also be able to see how the ignition is performing. Good luck on that and let us all know what you find cures it.
Hooked
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 443
Location: tampa
Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:34 am quote
I beg to differ. I didnt start the oil conversation. out of respect for you I havent commented on your dyno posts. I do my tuning on the street where I find it far more effective. plus this ecu is a learning ecu using 02 feedback. it takes days for ecu to correct trims from actual use. something that isnt happening on the dyno. dyno is a great tool. street is better.
Quote:
madison sully It's just that, I have used Shell Rotella T6 5W40 (that diesel stuff), and commuted ~135 miles per day, for about 46,000 miles now.
Quote:
motovista Cracked ring lands became an issue in this motor when Piaggio punched out the cylinder from 460 to 490. I think it's a combination of increased piston slap, leaving 5w-40 motor oil made for diesel engines in for 6000 miles, and long stretches at high speed that are more common in the US than in Europe.
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2219
Location: Starfleet Command, South Eastern UK HQ
Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:14 am quote
Oh yes jerry. Pardon my error. You didn't bring up the oil point. My apologies. But those that did, made a perfectly valid point concerning oil and engine wear.

I did initially only comment too on your point about diesel oil being superior to car oil because as others have noted, it is incorrect.

Tuning on the dyno is far superior to road testing. The ecu closed loop system only trims fuelling and ignition algorithms for optimum performance during the first 250 miles of running. It makes only very slight differences to the throttle inputs.

Tuning on the dyno allows you to see in real time where the fuelling and ignition is in need of adjustment. You can add 1%, 2% or whatever fuel here or there on the map anywhere in the rev range and watch the improvement. Or you can wack in a 4-5% increase in fuel. Make any adjustments you like and the result is instant and you can see that straight away on the dyno. It's no doubt what your bike needs if you are having issues solving the problem. I can't help thinking it's your riding technique that is also contributing to the issue though. But the dyno gets rid of all the guess work. The ecu will still trim off any overhang settings as it learns but those are so minor on our bikes that it almost makes no difference.

Out of respect for you I haven't commented on lots of other (incorrect) engineering points you raise in your posts. But I can if you want me to. It may help you. Bests jerry.
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