Red Hot
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Member
MP3
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 34
Location: Norway
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:11 pm quote
jimc wrote:
DandyDoug wrote:
Looking at the spark plugs, I believe the fuel mixture is too rich .
How so? To tell from the spark plug you have to look at the lower part of the insulator - which isn't visible in those pics. Going just by the upper part, it looks as though it's far too lean a mixture - which is odd considering the FI...
It was difficult to see the extreme base of the insulator but what I could see was the same as shown on the tip (photo).

The same day and prior to taking the bike back to the dealer, I was instructed by the dealer to disconnect the plug connecting the lambda sonder and run the motor to see if this made any difference, no change.

I only ran the motor at idle for 2-3 mins, I don't know how the signal from the lambda sonder effects the running during start and warm up.

No fail was indicated on the dash when the sonder was disconnected.
Hooked
GTS 300
Joined: 03 Jul 2019
Posts: 123
Location: lewisville , nc. 27023
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:36 pm quote
jimc wrote:
DandyDoug wrote:
Looking at the spark plugs, I believe the fuel mixture is too rich .
How so? To tell from the spark plug you have to look at the lower part of the insulator - which isn't visible in those pics. Going just by the upper part, it looks as though it's far too lean a mixture - which is odd considering the FI...
I agree , cannot see much of the insulator, but the electrode itself shows some carbon like build up and the outer surface has the same at the base of the threaded portion. Kind of an oily sheen to my eye. That's what leads me to think a rich mixture.

What I don't understand is why or how it can be too rich or too lean. My understanding of the computerized fuel injection system is that it automatically adjusts for this.

Unless there is a base circle timing issue ??
That's above my pay grade though

I am interested to hear what the dealer with all the magic computer testers has to say.
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 37598
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:54 pm quote
An air leak in the inlet manifold after the throttle body would lead to a lean condition and very hot running.
Hooked
GTS 300
Joined: 03 Jul 2019
Posts: 123
Location: lewisville , nc. 27023
Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:59 pm quote
Bingo !!

I had not thought of an air leak.
Hooked
2019 MP3 hpe 500 sport Advanced " Missy "
Joined: 21 Dec 2018
Posts: 249
Location: West Germany
Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:07 pm quote
jimc wrote:
An air leak in the inlet manifold after the throttle body would lead to a lean condition and very hot running.
I agree. That would make a lot more sence than the Timing being off. I`m sure the Mechanic would have noticed that the Timing was off.
Hooked
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 441
Location: tampa
Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:35 pm quote
only lean means more complete combustion. I could lean my cars out to about 17.5 to one. without issue at idle or part throttle. leaner would results in lean miss fires.

leak at intake manifold will just result in stalling at idle.

this will be retarded timing. seen it, diagnosed it a few times.

its also gonna be mechanical timing. as its very unlikely ecu is throwing the wrong timing suddenly. something loosened or skipped that controls timing.
Member
MP3
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 34
Location: Norway
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:10 am quote
Update.

The dealer is waiting for answers from Piaggio Italy, they are looking at data files sendt from the dealer, the dealer has not had any reply yet.
Enthusiast
mp3 500 2016
Joined: 30 Dec 2011
Posts: 73
Location: singapore
Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:50 am quote
Looking at yr FC,its like super saving!like impossible.almost like 30km/l?i am only getting around 21km/l.
So its like u r running suoer lean?
Member
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 43
Location: Belgium
Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:20 am quote
Re: Red Hot
BJN wrote:
Hello,

MP3 500 HPE Sport 2019, 2000 kms.

From cold start idling 3mins. the exhaust manifold from the head about 4-5 inches is glowing cherry red.

...

Checked one of the spark plugs (NGK MR7BI 8 ) looks normal, not burnt....
Can't speak for model year 2019, but all previous years of the Master motor used the NGK CR7EKB spark plug. I know for a fact the 2018 500 hpe motor uses the CR7EKB.

Sometimes computer controlled injected engines behave in strange ways, especially if you stray from the stock ignition and fueling components.

I'd say just put in 2 of the CR7EKB plugs and see what happens. You'll probably want to disconnect the battery for a few minutes too just to clear the ECU while installing the plugs.

Then report back.
Member
MP3
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 34
Location: Norway
Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:27 am quote
Re: Red Hot
sbaert wrote:
BJN wrote:
Hello,

MP3 500 HPE Sport 2019, 2000 kms.

From cold start idling 3mins. the exhaust manifold from the head about 4-5 inches is glowing cherry red.

...

Checked one of the spark plugs (NGK MR7BI 8 ) looks normal, not burnt....
Can't speak for model year 2019, but all previous years of the Master motor used the NGK CR7EKB spark plug. I know for a fact the 2018 500 hpe motor uses the CR7EKB.

Sometimes computer controlled injected engines behave in strange ways, especially if you stray from the stock ignition and fueling components.

I'd say just put in 2 of the CR7EKB plugs and see what happens. You'll probably want to disconnect the battery for a few minutes too just to clear the ECU while installing the plugs.

Then report back.
The dealer has the bike now, and is in touch with Piaggio.

The plugs are an iridium alternative.
Member
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 43
Location: Belgium
Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:46 am quote
Re: Red Hot
I can tell you from decades working on cars, iridium and other "high tech" plugs do very little other than lightening your wallet.

Unless your vehicle was designed to take such a plug and the factory specifies such a plug, they almost always cause more harm than good.

The main purpose of Iridium plugs is extremely long intervals, like 100K+. But using high tech plug where a normal plug is specified usually causes stress on the ignition components such as the coil(s) or other strange behavior.
Member
MP3
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 34
Location: Norway
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:19 pm quote
Re: Red Hot
sbaert wrote:
I can tell you from decades working on cars, iridium and other "high tech" plugs do very little other than lightening your wallet.

Unless your vehicle was designed to take such a plug and the factory specifies such a plug, they almost always cause more harm than good.

The main purpose of Iridium plugs is extremely long intervals, like 100K+. But using high tech plug where a normal plug is specified usually causes stress on the ignition components such as the coil(s) or other strange behavior.
I bought the scooter new and the plugs I have where fitted as delivered.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21405
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:21 pm quote
Re: Red Hot
sbaert wrote:
But using high tech plug where a normal plug is specified usually causes stress on the ignition components such as the coil(s) or other strange behavior.
please explain how that is possible for the plugs to put strain on coils.
Member
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 43
Location: Belgium
Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:44 am quote
Re: Red Hot
I meant electrical resistance (strain), not physical strain.

It is far easier for a spark to jump the gap on a dual electrode plug with a standard type center electrode.

When using a iridium type plug with a very tiny center electrode tip, the spark has a tougher time and only a single tiny point to make the jump unless the other components (such as the coil) are beefed up to complement the iridium (or Yttrium or others) plug. That is what I meant by strain.

The standard CR7EKB has 2 points for the spark to ignite. The high tech plugs only have just one, and then only to said very tiny center electrode. I have not come across a Iridium or other high tech plug with multiple electrodes.

If combustion does not occur and/or burn fully, the remaining unburnt gasses will find their way into the exhaust manifold and burn there.

I've worked on cars (Mercedes mainly) for 40+ years, and using modern tech plugs on older engines has always caused problems, sometimes even causing ignition system failures due to use of non specified plugs.

In the case of the Piaggio Master motor, keep in mind that this motor dates back to at least 2005 and possibly even a bit earlier. It is a very old design engine that has been given a few tweaks as the years passed to keep looking fresh but it is a design that is very old and very conventional by nature.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21405
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:16 am quote
Re: Red Hot
sbaert wrote:
I meant electrical resistance (strain), not physical strain.

It is far easier for a spark to jump the gap on a dual electrode plug with a standard type center electrode.

When using a iridium type plug with a very tiny center electrode tip, the spark has a tougher time and only a single tiny point to make the jump unless the other components (such as the coil) are beefed up to complement the iridium (or Yttrium or others) plug. That is what I meant by strain.

The standard CR7EKB has 2 points for the spark to ignite. The high tech plugs only have just one, and then only to said very tiny center electrode. I have not come across a Iridium or other high tech plug with multiple electrodes.

If combustion does not occur and/or burn fully, the remaining unburnt gasses will find their way into the exhaust manifold and burn there.

I've worked on cars (Mercedes mainly) for 40+ years, and using modern tech plugs on older engines has always caused problems, sometimes even causing ignition system failures due to use of non specified plugs.

In the case of the Piaggio Master motor, keep in mind that this motor dates back to at least 2005 and possibly even a bit earlier. It is a very old design engine that has been given a few tweaks as the years passed to keep looking fresh but it is a design that is very old and very conventional by nature.
still have not explained how the coil can be strained electrically.

Look the coils have a set value to produce period. they intern supply energy to the spark plugs, the coil don't care what's at the end of the line to receive the energy they GIVE out. The spark plugs do not provide feed back to the coils saying I need more I need more give me more energy.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21405
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:20 am quote
Hooked
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 441
Location: tampa
Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:48 am quote
you guys are both right.

iridium plugs require less energy to fire.

old cars may not run well with them. older engines dont burn as cleanly so iridiums tiny tip foul out very quickly. I have experienced this as well.
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2215
Location: Starfleet Command, South Eastern UK HQ
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:56 am quote
The issue is most likely to be a tight exhaust valve which is sending burning gases directly into the exhaust downpipe while it is still burning. It's come from the factory like it. I've seen this on one other bike some time ago. The gap doesn't have to be out by much to do this. It will also make the bike spite and burble to on the over run. The closed loop system will compensate as much as it can and often diagnostic readings can look pretty normal. It's unlikely to be a timing issue.
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2215
Location: Starfleet Command, South Eastern UK HQ
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:59 am quote
Hillbilly Fred wrote:
BJN wrote:
Does anyone know if it is normal for the header pipe to get red hot on the 500 E4 motor?
Hello BJN. I also have a 2019 hpe and mine pops and spits and sputters going down hill every time,but I have never had the header pipe get Cherry red. It could be that your fuel mixture is too rich. I would have that checked if I were you. The pipe is supposed to get really hot,but it shouldn't get that hot.
You mean too lean! Too lean burns hotter. Too rich runs colder.
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2215
Location: Starfleet Command, South Eastern UK HQ
Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:38 am quote
Re: Red Hot
sbaert wrote:
I can tell you from decades working on cars, iridium and other "high tech" plugs do very little other than lightening your wallet.

Unless your vehicle was designed to take such a plug and the factory specifies such a plug, they almost always cause more harm than good.

The main purpose of Iridium plugs is extremely long intervals, like 100K+. But using high tech plug where a normal plug is specified usually causes stress on the ignition components such as the coil(s) or other strange behavior.
I'm pleased to say this is not true. In all testing that we did we found that not to be the case and irridiums plugs and similar did prove useful and not harmful in any way. And as the manufacturers will tell you, what you are saying is largely pants! The only time cdi/coils are "strained" is when owners let their spark plugs go well over the normal change times. Doing that increases the resistance inside the spark plug and this requires more voltage to fire the plug. Your bike of course will not be able to supply more voltage. This also "strains" your cdi/coils and they run hotter leading to earlier failure. You will also get a smaller spark and lower performance and poorer economy. However, if we are talking "high performance" cdi/coils, these are designed to produce more voltage. But we are not talking that situation here. Even so, engine designers build in enough capacity to the electrical system on bikes or any engine to cope with normal wear and tear of spark plugs and cope with normal increases in resistance inside the plug. But importantly, not if owners go over the spark plug recommended change times.

The standard voltage needed to "fire" a spark plug increases with age. This happens because the "resistance" inside the plug increases exponentially as the plug ages. Typically, the voltage needed to fire a plug at 20,000 miles can be more than double that of what is required at 10,000 miles in order to give the correct size healthy spark. The cause of this is the insulation inside the plug breaks down causing extra resistance as the miles go on so requiring more voltage to fire the plug. The wear on the spark plug tip is surprisingly not so important unless it is very worn. Unfortunately, your bikes electrics under conditions of a very worn plug will max out as it cannot give more voltage so this "strains" the cdi/coils and can make them run very hot, eventually leading to early failure. In addition, the spark at the plug electrode tip will be smaller as it doesn't receive optimum voltage. This reduces performance and economy. If the plugs are not changed, eventually the plugs will misfire and fail.

The spark plug electrode tip is not a good indication of how worn out a spark plug is.
A perfectly good looking tip may be on a completely worn out plug if you measure the voltage needed to fire the plug. It's internal insulation my have broken down by some way causing an increase in resistance so the bike cannot supply enough voltage in order to fire the plug with a nice fat spark. That's why it's important to change the spark plugs at the recommended intervals.

We found fitting irridium spark plugs gave the cdi/coil units an easier time. The fitting of some other radial firing plugs can be different depending on the engine they are fitted to. How hard the cdi/coils find it to fire a plug is dependant on several things, but in the main it's the compression ratio, and how worn the plugs are. Fitting a radial firing plug (often referred to as a sports plug) can be fine in many engine with no upgrade to the electrical system. On other high compression engines that may not be the case because the compression ratio raises the resistance to firing a spark plug of any kind. Therefore a upgrade to the eletrical system is needed to gain reliability. I think that is what sbaet is getting at and it's an interesting point he has made.
Hooked
2019 MP3 hpe 500 sport Advanced " Missy "
Joined: 21 Dec 2018
Posts: 249
Location: West Germany
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:12 am quote
Stromrider wrote:
Hillbilly Fred wrote:
BJN wrote:
Does anyone know if it is normal for the header pipe to get red hot on the 500 E4 motor?
Hello BJN. I also have a 2019 hpe and mine pops and spits and sputters going down hill every time,but I have never had the header pipe get Cherry red. It could be that your fuel mixture is too rich. I would have that checked if I were you. The pipe is supposed to get really hot,but it shouldn't get that hot.
You mean too lean! Too lean burns hotter. Too rich runs colder.
That's right Stromrider I meant to say lean not ritch My bad!
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2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
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Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:35 pm quote
Yeah, I know you did. You have good knowledge....
Member
MP3
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 34
Location: Norway
Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:46 am quote
Update

The data files viewed by Piaggio did not indicate anything that could cause the overheating.

Piaggio have stated the problem could be a faulty ecu even when the data did not show any problems.

The dealer is going to install a new ecu.

The dealer will also inspect/take photos of the cylinder walls, valves and valve seats using an internal camera/endoscope.
Hooked
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 441
Location: tampa
Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:26 am quote
I am with stormrider on this one.
tight valve clearance is most likely
air fuel compression leak, burning in the downpipe
fits my diagnosis. its mechanical. its fuel burning at wrong time in cycle.
Member
MP3
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 34
Location: Norway
Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:42 am quote
jerryd wrote:
I am with stormrider on this one.
tight valve clearance is most likely
air fuel compression leak, burning in the downpipe
fits my diagnosis. its mechanical. its fuel burning at wrong time in cycle.
Yes it is possible, and "maybe" a fault with the de-compression system causing the incomplete closing of the exhaust valves.

The dealer is following instructions from Piaggio.

The last 14 days we have had beautiful riding weather and all I have done is wax and polish my riding boots, and now they gathering dust.
Hooked
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 441
Location: tampa
Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:19 am quote
I wouldnt hurt to call them and give em a nudge in the right direction.

what one needs to understand about service is just because its the dealer and they sell the bike doesnt mean they are gonna be full of repair knowledge. there is just not that much repair work being done on scooters. I feel sorry for anyone who has a vespa dealership in tampa. tampa is a pretty large area yet there is just not enough market. barneys of tampa laughed at me when I asked why they were no longer a vespa dealer. "we sold like four vespas a year" was their response. they were glad to be free of it.
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2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 7494
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:51 am quote
Also, when dropping a bike off that is your main transportation, let the dealer know that is how you get around. We use to push daily riders to the front of the line if we could.
Member
MP3
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 34
Location: Norway
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:52 am quote
jerryd wrote:
I wouldnt hurt to call them and give em a nudge in the right direction.

what one needs to understand about service is just because its the dealer and they sell the bike doesnt mean they are gonna be full of repair knowledge. there is just not that much repair work being done on scooters. I feel sorry for anyone who has a vespa dealership in tampa. tampa is a pretty large area yet there is just not enough market. barneys of tampa laughed at me when I asked why they were no longer a vespa dealer. "we sold like four vespas a year" was their response. they were glad to be free of it.
The dealer is a Vespa/Piaggio specialist and has been selling scooters for 20+ years, I don't know how many MP3's they have handled.

The first service on my scooter they included re-torquing/greasing the steering stems, the workshop seems well equipped.

At the moment I have to rely on their competence, i'ts just taking a laaang time
Hooked
2019 MP3 hpe 500 sport Advanced " Missy "
Joined: 21 Dec 2018
Posts: 249
Location: West Germany
Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:43 pm quote
old as dirt wrote:
Oh goody! A new film I need some Popcorn !
Member
MP3
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 34
Location: Norway
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:49 pm quote
Hillbilly Fred wrote:
old as dirt wrote:
Oh goody! A new film I need some Popcorn !
Here is another
[urlhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WnM_NsOtd8[/url]
Member
MP3
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
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Location: Norway
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:42 am quote
Me thinking ,

The throttle and the throttle position sensor are pre-calibrated at the factory.

If the throttle position has NOT been calibrated correctly maybe slightly wide (open) and the ecu reset to to match what it assumes is the correct minimum throttle position, the mixture at idle and small throttle openings would be lean, less obvious at wider throttle openings, maybe.
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