Red Hot
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Enthusiast
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 70
Location: Belgium
Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:29 am quote
The "red hot" condition on the header is caused by fuel being burned after it leaves the combustion chamber.

You may want to remind your dealer that "a loose valve is a happy valve"

Your issue is 100% mechanical, not electronic.
Member
MP3
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:02 am quote
sbaert wrote:
The "red hot" condition on the header is caused by fuel being burned after it leaves the combustion chamber.

You may want to remind your dealer that "a loose valve is a happy valve"

Your issue is 100% mechanical, not electronic.
I agree that fuel is burning in the header, but it could be caused with retarded ignition, combustion not complete when the exhaust valves open.

Checking the tappet clearance would be an obvious next step in this circumstance.

I'll wait to see what Piaggo have to say.
Enthusiast
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 70
Location: Belgium
Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:43 am quote
Good move, and also tell your dealer that for whatever reason your bike did not come with the factory specified NGK CR7EKB plugs.

Have the factory spec plugs installed, without excuse regardless of what this dealer may tell you.
Member
MP3
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:01 am quote
sbaert wrote:
Good move, and also tell your dealer that for whatever reason your bike did not come with the factory specified NGK CR7EKB plugs.

Have the factory spec plugs installed, without excuse regardless of what this dealer may tell you.
What I don't understand is why they bothered to change the ecu when they now say the condition is normal.

I'll ask about the plugs!
Enthusiast
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 70
Location: Belgium
Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:52 am quote
I think this dealer is way too trusting of Piaggio and/or the PDS (Piaggio Diagnostic System), instead of checking the basics and trusting his eyes, ears, nose like a mechanic always should.

Of course, IF he is one of those "new generation" mechanics that can't work without a computer then that might explain why he focused on the ECU swap and wrongly believed that would be the one stop solution & ultimate cure.
Member
MP3
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:03 am quote
I was told Friday morning that the dealer would receive info from Piaggio describing the red hot exhaust as normal, they expected to get the info later Friday or maybe Monday.

They have not received anything yet, Monday 16:05 local time.
Enthusiast
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 70
Location: Belgium
Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:14 am quote
I don't buy this "it's normal" theory until Piaggio puts a turbo on their MP3.

Then red hot exhausts may become somewhat acceptable and then only with severe usage.
Hooked
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 459
Location: tampa
Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:56 am quote
they do get red hot. but after 15 second wide open throttle. or an hour of driving around. two minutes after cold start is huge problem. and they are being idiots to say its normal.
Hooked
2019 MP3 hpe 500 sport Advanced " Missy "
Joined: 21 Dec 2018
Posts: 250
Location: West Germany
Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:24 am quote
Red Hot
It`s not normal!!!!!
Member
MP3
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:52 am quote
Still no written statement from Piaggio/importer.

The dealer informed me that at two other dealers they tested brand new MP3 500 HPE's and that the exhaust header's were glowing red hot within 2 mins. from cold start!!

If the hot exhaust header is a fault, then it is not just my MP3.
Enthusiast
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 70
Location: Belgium
Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:09 am quote
Of course there is no written statement, and there never will be. IF they are dumb enough put such a thing on paper, then you've got them by the nuts and you could take them to court. And that is the last thing they want to do.

Call their bluff, take a demo bike MP3 500HPE from the dealer your bike is at out for a spin. Come back in less than 5 minutes, and see if it glows or not. Just don't inform the dealer ahead of time this is what you want to do.

Unless you've got a turbo, the exhaust manifold should not glow and then only under hard working conditions.
Member
MP3
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:57 am quote
sbaert wrote:
Of course there is no written statement, and there never will be. IF they are dumb enough put such a thing on paper, then you've got them by the nuts and you could take them to court. And that is the last thing they want to do.

Call their bluff, take a demo bike MP3 500HPE from the dealer your bike is at out for a spin. Come back in less than 5 minutes, and see if it glows or not. Just don't inform the dealer ahead of time this is what you want to do.

Unless you've got a turbo, the exhaust manifold should not glow and then only under hard working conditions.
If the glowing exhaust is not confirmed as normal then it has to be fixed.

I have so far described the condition from cold start without any throttle, if I rev the engine for a few moments while on centre stand (about 4000 rpm.) the glowing extends further down the header and glows a lot brighter.

What engine damage could be caused long term I donít know, but I consider the condition to be a severe fire risk.
Enthusiast
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 70
Location: Belgium
Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:38 pm quote
Now that you've given some more specific details, I can only tell you that something is very, very wrong. But there is no fire danger at this point. If anything, all engines can be considered a fire danger hence the name Internal Combustion Engine.

I suspect a tight valve, or worse. Whatever the problem may be, it is originating from the cylinder head. The fact that the bike does not have the stock spark plugs rang alarm bells for me. Sounds like somebody knew about the issue but tried to hide it by running a different set of plugs.

You should NOT drive a bike/car/anything with a engine that has this condition.

This is a brand new bike, it is your right to complain (and complain hard) and have them fix it right. If they are not willing to give you proof in hand from Piaggio directly (Piaggio letter sent from the factory or local head office addressed in your name, NOT some e-mail communication between the dealer and Piaggio) that this is "perfectly normal" demand they exchange the bike for a identical new one. Without proof in hand, when that engine fails Piaggio will put the blame on you and claim "owner neglect & abuse".

Hence the reason why I suggested you try a demo bike (or a few) to validate their claim.
Member
MP3
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:29 pm quote
Got a call from the dealer yesterday afternoon 03 11.

The dealer received a telephone call from Piaggio Italy earlier same day, they asked him to replace the valve lifter mechanism due to a "possible" mismatch of parts.

New parts where sent from Italy yesterday.

The valve tappet clearances are ok.

The timing chain alignment is ok.
Ossessionato
2016 MP3/500 Sport ABS, 2009 MP3/250, 2012 GTS Super 300ie
Joined: 08 Jul 2011
Posts: 4237
Location: Marietta, GA
Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:08 am quote
BJN wrote:
Got a call from the dealer yesterday afternoon 03 11.

The dealer received a telephone call from Piaggio Italy earlier same day, they asked him to replace the valve lifter mechanism due to a "possible" mismatch of parts.

New parts where sent from Italy yesterday.

The valve tappet clearances are ok.

The timing chain alignment is ok.
I would tell the Dealer you want a "Free" Extended Warranty...
You have more patience then me, I would have requested they Buy the Bike back from you. I know two friends that turned their 2016's in and got their money back for different engine issues and purchased motorcycles.

Keith,
Marietta, GA
Enthusiast
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 70
Location: Belgium
Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:40 am quote
The chances of getting a "free" extended warranty after you've informed them of a major engine problem is about as likely to happen as a official letter from Piaggio claiming "nothing to see here . . . all is A-OK including the red hot exhaust".

I think it is high time the OP puts on his big boy pants and give them 2 options. 1) New bike (zero cost exchange) WITH free extended warranty OR 2) full refund of purchase price.

Look at it this way, IF Piaggio really felt that all this is "perfectly normal" they wouldn't have bothered with a ECU exchange or head related componentry.

Stand your ground, and let them know in a very stern manner that you've given them plenty of time & chances to fix it right and that your patience has become paper thin.
Hooked
GTS 300
Joined: 03 Jul 2019
Posts: 136
Location: lewisville , nc. 27023
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:19 am quote
Many years ago I worked at a VW store, we were selling the newest at the time Rabbit's and a new model something like a Passat ( the model name escapes my old confused mind).

A customer had repeated issues with the car , we did our best to address all the problems . Following all the warranty procedures, even had a service field rep in a couple of times. This went on for months and VW denied every warranty claim .
Finally the owner got an attorney involved , suing our dealership, VW , and every entity they could. The car sat on the lot for months.
I moved up and on.
The last time I saw the owner in a super market , he said they finally did get some of the money back but the lawyers got a big chunk of it.

I believe there were no so called "Lemon" laws in place at that time. Even if there were I believe the owner , even though he had played the game fairly , lost out in the end.

My bet is the OP is not going to come out happy sadly. European countries as a whole operate way differently from the US, each have their own laws . And they are not easy to navigate.

I could go on about Franchise law in Germany , but that's not the issue here.

Good luck getting this resolved OP.
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