selling a de-tuned bike - project stock+ - sold
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Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3991
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:17 pm quote
I don't want to dirty up my Malossi build thread with this, so I started this on the side. I've had my bike up for sale for about 3 weeks now, with not many nibbles. People I know thought the $3500 price was fair, I've abandoned that in favor of $3200, due to lack of nibbles. So what gives? Is the price out of line? Is it time of year? Or is it simply that a tuned bike has a limited audience of people willing to entertain it? I see solid original bikes listing for more than mine in the SoCal area Craigslists, so it doesn't seem crazy on pricing. To buy a P in this cosmetic condition and add all of the go-fast parts I've got on there would take something like $4k or more. Of course I know you won't get it all back, but it seems funny to be competing in the price range of stock bikes and not getting nibbles. I've got 42+ pages of documentation showing the work that went into it, and it's really sorted now...

Bike is currently on Craigslist, Vintage Scooter Classifieds (FB), MV, and a local San Diego FB page.

Honest feedback is sought, try not to get too flame-y

[topic167103]

Last edited by sdjohn on Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:40 pm; edited 6 times in total
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1826

Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:34 pm quote
Your P210 looks very nice (especially with that T5 fender). It has nothing to do with your build. Tuned Vespas are very difficult to sell (especially a tuned P2). Even kitted Smallframes (including hard to find tuned PK's) don't have much of a resale value. Even if you converted over to a full hydro front brake, it MIGHT add only $200 to your final selling price. On the other hand it seems that tuned (225 and larger) Lambrettas are MUCH earier to sell, and are almost a prerequisite. It goes the same way in the automotive and motorcycle world as well though.

*i would spend the few dollars and some time to clean up the wires some (for aesthetics). Add a selector box cover, install a $5 CDI rubber accordion boot, run the green kill wire inside the existing loom, and slip a short piece of black heatshrink over the TT red tac wire, and it will look super clean under that cowl (the carb hose clamps are lined up, so that looks pro). Then take new pictures of it. Will it help the sale of the scoot?...who knows, but that's the sort of things that i pay attention to.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3991
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:03 pm quote
Those are good suggestions, especially since I've already sorted the selector cover and removed the tach altogether (I'm keeping that). I might have a boot in my stash too, so some new pictures wouldn't hurt.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1216
Location: UK (South East)
Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:19 pm quote
People like to tune their own. Everyone's favourite Vespa is the barn find that they have subsequently improved/restored/tuned. Somehow the one that has already been restored or tuned by somebody else has limited appeal, no matter how good or how much has been spent. Your 40+ page thread gives a blow by blow account of what has been done, but most don't, and this would be a concern to prospective buyers.

If you go down the tuning route, your resale market is limited, but a stock P200 in original paint will have a long queue of buyers. I have a PX125 with 15 miles from new and it's exactly as it left the factory. I have a new VMC 177 kit on the shelf, but I know that if I were to install it on the PX125, the scooter's perceived value would immediately be reduced. Sad but true.
Hooked
GTS 300
Joined: 03 Jul 2019
Posts: 123
Location: lewisville , nc. 27023
Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:25 pm quote
I'm just starting to learn about the used Vespa / vintage market.
If it's anything like the used motorcycle market it comes down to this.

Just how badly do you want to sell ?
All the go fast stuff is only worth something to a buyer if they understand exactly what it is and how to benefit from it.

My feelings are ,
I hope you enjoyed all that chrome, go fast, make more noise, improve handling etc, because it's not worth a cent to me as the buyer .
Unless it is exactly the way I would have done it.

Plus , you need to be able to convince the buyer that you are as good a mechanic as you say you are for them to trust your work.

Good luck on the sale anyway.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:48 pm quote
I thought the price was pretty reasonable as well.

The people who are not interested in a tuned scooter (I think) are not interested because they haven't ridden a good one. A back to back comparison ride on yours vs stock I'm sure would sell it pretty quickly.

Actually if you put a sip road on it, then put up a new ad that said very little about what's been done to it (perhaps other than "x miles on new motor") it might draw a few more in?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7344
Location: seattle/athens
Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:49 pm quote
swa45 wrote:
...
... I have a PX125 with 15 miles from new and it's exactly as it left the factory. I have a new VMC 177 kit on the shelf, but I know that if I were to install it on the PX125, the scooter's perceived value would immediately be reduced. Sad but true.
I always put whatever stock parts are removed on the shelf, safe and well labeled.
Try the kit, you wanted it & paid for it! WCGW? I don't see you selling so what do you care about 'value' now?
Fun can sometimes trump mere value.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3991
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:04 pm quote
I have a SIP road on the shelf as well as other stock components. I’ve entertained removing some goodies for resale, but I thought it would be better as it is. The last thing I wanted to do though is to have to retune it much by changing much. Kind of done with that for now but maybe it’s worth thinking about.
Molto Verboso
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 1153
Location: Siam
Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:01 pm quote
When I think of a tuned bike, my first impressions are fast, doctored, jury rigged, ridden hard (most likely abused), and unreliable. I'm certainly not saying any of these apply to your great looking bike, but a stock bike doesn't conjure up these perceptions unless it was 'restored' in Ho Chi Minh City or Islamabad.😀

This is the same with anything that's been modified. In the world of vintage watches, if the dial has been refurbished (repainted), the watch loses about a third of its value no matter how nicely it was restored.

Last edited by nomadinsiam on Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3991
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:07 pm quote
So would it help or hurt to link the 42 page thread directly in the ad? I’m not sure. I’m glad for the feedback, it helps me understand what potential buyers might be thinking. Somehow I have to convince them it’s been done correctly...
Molto Verboso
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 1153
Location: Siam
Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:10 pm quote
I think that offering them the original parts along with it would help, if you still have them.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4887
Location: So Cal
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:08 pm quote
I think this confirms that scoots have a sort of built in “maximum value”. Once we start getting into the tuning game we can pretty much forget about recouping all of the money we spend on go fast stuff. After a certain point, the return is pretty much pennies on the dollar.

The real value was in the fun building it (and of course the 40-page thread).

I’d put the SIP pipe back on, give the whole bike a squeaky clean polish, price it for what a decent stock P200 would go for, sell the PM pipe separately, and be happy.

Oh and by the way, if anybody’s interested, I’ve ridden John’s bike. It’s worth every penny he’s asking. It’s fast, solid, smooth and in beautiful shape. It’ll make someone very happy.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1316
Location: Florence, OR
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:27 pm quote
Tough one SDJohn. I've drooled over your machine numerous times. I'm surprised it hasn't sold, and I too think it's priced fairly. It's a badass machine and you've done a great job with it.

I've noticed there is a P210 in Temecula for $3,500 that has been for sale for-ev-er. I don't know what's up with that but it's tuned also.

As far as the 42 page thread - It couldn't hurt. People always like to know what's been done to what they are buying. If they are truly interested and not just looking for something that looks nice, that is.

I've refurbished a 1969 twelve foot canned ham a number of years ago and the thread of the refurbish sold the trailer.

Also the White P200 that I rebuilt and put back into service a few months back was sold from the thread here in ModernVespa. I know the person that bought it had a choice between mine and a few others. He told me it was what he read and he knew what had been done mechanically from the thread.

So I'd link it up - it couldn't hurt! Good luck with the sale. I think your bike is worth it. Now where is the person looking for one that thinks the same....
Hooked
GTS 300
Joined: 03 Jul 2019
Posts: 123
Location: lewisville , nc. 27023
Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:39 am quote
Maybe putting an ad in Cycle Trader , or on consignment at a local any brand dealer.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3991
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:16 am quote
Thanks for the input people!

If someone from MV that was non-local wanted it we could try to work with Denver James on shipping, but I've never gone that route.

I'm thinking to get more nibbles we really probably need the price under $3k. Items that could be stripped/sold individually and still not ruin the bike (level 1):

-swap PM EVO pipe for SIP road
-swap S&S head for standard Malossi
-swap MRP intake manifold for Polini manifold

Level 2:
-banded clutch and S&S clutch cover back to stock (that's probably not a good idea)
-remove fuel pump (scaring people??) this isn't really a money saver though

Level 3:
-60mm crank (back to stock)
-Malossi kit (back to P200 top end with new rings)

I'd probably rather lose some money than hit level 3.
Member
Vespa P125X, Stella 2T
Joined: 15 Jul 2019
Posts: 13
Location: Pocatello ID
Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:36 am quote
I have found that Vespas are like VW Beetles. Everyone wants one but they think that because they are so common they should be cheap no matter what condition they are in.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3991
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:02 am quote
TromboneBob wrote:
I have found that Vespas are like VW Beetles. Everyone wants one but they think that because they are so common they should be cheap no matter what condition they are in.
I think this is especially true with the P series.
Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2256
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:17 am quote
I agree that most buyers fall into two different camps:
1) The people who want to do their own build work, e.g. most of us on this forum
2) People who are afraid a tuned bike will be unreliable and can't maintain it themselves

And for most people, $3,500 probably seems like a lot of money for what they generally view as a toy
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3991
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:02 am quote
Assuming you have the 2 camps you mention Chandlerman, then I'd probably be better off returning to stock, selling the bike for $2500, and selling pieces like so:

-top end $175
-crank $75
-pipe $175
-S&S head $100
-pwk carb with MRP manifold $150

note: these prices are not fixed yet

etc. etc. etc. I usually find if you have fancy crap with relatively low miles you can sell it for 60% of new cost and people will jump on it. you can see that for a bit of effort it would likely come out with more money than where I'm currently headed trying to sell it tuned.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1316
Location: Florence, OR
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:20 am quote
sdjohn wrote:
You can see that for a bit of effort it would likely come out with more money than where I'm currently headed trying to sell it tuned.
Crazy, but probably true!
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3991
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:29 am quote
I'm starting to think that if I'm willing to leave the 60mm crank in there and pack up the stock cylinder, that might be the right balance. It would allow me to put on a stock carb and eliminate the fuel pump, pull out the banded clutch and S&S clutch cover, swap to SIP road, and make it a pretty stock-ish bike. I'm not sure if my porting will work with a P200 cylinder though. I can't remember if any JB went in that would be in the way of the stock port.

I found an image - will the JB on the right side impede a stock P200 port?

*edit
Untitled by john.headley, on Flickr
Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 63 Li125, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3283
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:54 am quote
If you need a buyer for leftover stock P200 top ends and the exhaust, you can count on me John.
Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2256
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:26 pm quote
sdjohn wrote:
I'm starting to think that if I'm willing to leave the 60mm crank in there and pack up the stock cylinder, that might be the right balance.
I'd say this is probably the correct option. You can structure it as "a little extra oomph," but still generally stock. Make up the money on the go-fast parts like you're proposing. They'll sell pretty easily and, if you need to cut a price here or there to move them, you're talking a $25 discount, not a $250 discount.

And even if you needed to take out some JBWeld, that's like thirty seconds worth of work.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3991
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:04 pm quote
Yup, I’m with you Chandlerman. It’s not too much work and gets max return. Plus I get to try out that hone I’ve never used yet.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:42 pm quote
That bit of JB should knock out relatively easily without grinding etc.

Seems like such a shame though to ruin a good motor!
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1826

Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:33 pm quote
I’d almost venture to guess that a Pinasco 215 would be easier to sell than a 210. Just because they’re a lower tune cylinder.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3991
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:00 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
That bit of JB should knock out relatively easily without grinding etc.

Seems like such a shame though to ruin a good motor!
yeah to me it’s nuts but that seems to be the market!
Hooked
P200E
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 462
Location: The Town that dreaded Sundown.
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:15 pm quote
Man don’t go converting it, I would love the bike but my current P2 is sucking up all my funds at the moment. It’s a beautiful bike and will sell.
Hooked
PX 150
Joined: 06 Aug 2007
Posts: 325
Location: Dublin, Ohio
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:30 am quote
As cool as your scooter is, it will appeal to a very small group of enthusiasts. Going back and reading just the end of your 42 page thread seems to me to indicate that your scooter would not be a good fit for anyone who is not ready to make ownership a very involved experience. Even the steps you took finally to fix the idle would give me great pause since a new owner would have no way of knowing precisely how the scooter is configured. You know everything about it since you built it. I would be very reluctant to drop over $3k on a scooter that runs very strong when I buy it, but for which I have no clue what lurks within and for which I could not buy parts without needing a lot of custom work. Where would a new owner even start? I commend you for being very honest and up front about all the work that has gone into it. I can imagine that some sellers would advertise it as a great running scooter with a bit of work, and sell it to someone new to Vespas who might be getting in way over their head. A very small percentage of people have the expertise to understand all you have done and to replicate it as necessary when stuff breaks or wears out.

Last edited by apex on Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:14 am; edited 1 time in total
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4887
Location: So Cal
Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:48 am quote
Start a new thread:

“Unbuilding the Build”
Hooked
P200E
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 462
Location: The Town that dreaded Sundown.
Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:56 am quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Start a new thread:

“Unbuilding the Build”
Or "Uncool the Cool?

Could always build another engine bone stock and sell the bike that way. Then take your time trying to sell the modded engine.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3991
Location: San Diego, CA
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:03 am quote
I think Apex summed it up nice. I am glad I asked the question, which I wasn't sure I wanted to. To many (most?) the appeal of vintage Vespa is the simplicity, which went out the door a long time ago on my build .

Socal - I'm thinking I might just change the name of this thread and do it here. I was already thinking it on my commute today and the fact that you brought it up means I might just do it. Photos to come!
Hooked
1966 Sprint 150 & px200 and a shed full o shit
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 119
Location: New Zealand
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:17 am quote
I'm with Apex; yes selling a tuned bike (non-original anything) is difficult.

Nice stock PX = considered bulletproof (and a blank canvas)
Extensively modified PX = considered potential hand grenade

Good luck and all the best,
pc
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3991
Location: San Diego, CA
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:53 am quote
So now that that's settled, here are the outlines for where I'm going.

-Remove banded clutch basket, insert contents into standard clutch basket, reinstall
-Remove S&S clutch cover made for banded clutches, rebuild shaft into stock clutch cover
-Remove PM EVO pipe, replace with SIP Road (where is that blasted exhaust bolt? I looked for it last night but couldn't find it)
-Remove PWK carb and MRP manifold, reinstall standard carb box, install Dellorto SI20.20 carb that came with the bike. I have some documentation in my notes on what the jetting was with SI20.20 and SIP road, it should be pretty easy to dial in (famous last words)
-Shorten throttle and clutch cables as required (easier than fishing new ones, these are the long version for aftermarket carbs)
-Remove fuel pump system
-Remove Malossi 210 Sport cylinder and piston, install stock cylinder and piston. This will require a bit of fiddling due to 60mm crank and the fact that I had material removed from the top of the cylinder and from the cylinder head. Nothing that shouldn't be able to be sorted with packers / head gaskets though.
-Remove small amount of JB weld that is blocking the standard 200 case port
-Retime ignition from 16 to 20ish degrees because I'm not sure where compression will fall with this setup
-Remove spare tire spacers, reinstall 3.5x10 to spare rim instead of small spare
-Remove all wiring from fuel pump (easy, I used nice connectors!)

Expect some photos soon!
Hooked
58 VB1T, 81 100 Sport
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 172
Location: Long Beach, CA
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:37 am quote
Count me signed up for this thread!

My 1.5 cents echo's what most are saying here, and I think you have a good strategy that will enable an easier sale, and hopefully a little more cash in your pocket in the end. It requires more work to unbuild the rebuild, but should be worth it.

A few years back I sold my '79 P200, which was fully tuned and built. Similar to yours, but not quite so far. Mallossi kit, head, reed 30m carb, full port job, gears, clutch, sip JL pipe, clean paint etc. It was my baby I had for over 10 years and done right! Took me a long while to sell, and in the end went for basically the same as a stocker. I would have swapped parts as your plan, had I had them. So Good luck and gospeed!
Ossessionato
1964 GS 160 MK II, 1967 Vespa GT, 1968 SS180, 1964 Vespa GL, 1964 Vespa VBB, 2006 Buddy 125, 2013 BMW C650GT
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 2939
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:04 pm quote
I had a highly tuned P200 that I stole that was stupid fast (Rally fly case etc etc.). I was going to ask $3500 but got lucky and had a friend that wanted to trade for a Jet 200 and a little cash.

I love the Jet!
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3991
Location: San Diego, CA
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:11 pm quote
Yes, originally I was going to do trade/partial trade with my buddy who is selling a tuned PK (hard to find). But it struck me once I rode it that my Primavera is my bike, I built it, I know it inside and out, and even though it is slower I really like it, and I didn't really need to end up with 2 smallframes. So I decided to sell outright. Trades are smart for this type of situation.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7344
Location: seattle/athens
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:32 pm quote
Move. Get a bigger garage. Fixed.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3991
Location: San Diego, CA
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:45 pm quote
V oodoo wrote:
Move. Get a bigger garage. Fixed.
Ha, I'm lucky to have what I have in socal.

Last edited by sdjohn on Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7344
Location: seattle/athens
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:49 pm quote
We got lotsa room up here!

Yeah, you are lucky!
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