selling a de-tuned bike - project stock+ - sold
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Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1825

Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:50 pm quote
sdjohn wrote:
Another view, does it need more or is it enough?
I'm looking at the pattern of the honing, and it could just be the angle of the picture, but it appears that there is no "cross hatching" on the bore? It looks like yours has too flat of an angle to it (or no angle at all)?
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1825

Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:55 pm quote
V oodoo wrote:
It unscrews. Heat & penetrant, then try a big Craftsman screwdriver w/ square shank that fits snug & a piece of pipe lever while rapping on it and cursing properly. It will then move when correct swear words are found.

Who-chrome invented a socket thingie for his impact gun if you wanna get fancy....
You just have to make sure that the socket thingie stops spinning before you get your fingers anywhere close to it...
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1825

Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:00 pm quote
sdjohn wrote:
Never mind, pipe wrench got it. Starting port height 1.520Ē. 2.5mm off is .1Ē, target height 1.42Ē.
Careful with the pipe wrench. Although it works great for removing the stub, the teeth on the pipe can easily leave marks on it. This in turn can cause exhaust leaks at the joint where the muffler header gets clamped on. At least file down any teeth marks on the stub.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:10 am quote
I got lucky, the pipe wrench didnít mar it.

As for the cross hatch being more round, yeah I canít figure out how to get the more diamond shape, what am I doing wrong? Too much drill speed?
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:11 am quote
Will that pattern pose a problem?
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:46 am quote
I sold my pipe but I made a mistake on pricing it by looking at the bare version and not the chrome one. A buddy of mine gladly paid my price. I figured it out after and he said he wondered why I priced it that way. At least it went to a good guy, DOH.
Ossessionato
'09 250 GTSie '75 Rally 200 '79 P200 '09 Stella 221
Joined: 13 May 2012
Posts: 2413
Location: Midway, Kentucky
Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:25 pm quote
I have several Ps that I have experimented with over time, trying various kits, carb and pipe variations, only to seize or burn holes in pistons. I learned a lot while burning through a ton of money along the way. I currently have a Stella running a 221 Polini/Malossi in Rally cases, Vespatronic, Vortex and vintage Taffspeed pipe. Polini suspension, Pinasco rims w/Heidenaus. Engine was built by Al and bike was sorted by John Gick. It's fast and cruises easily at 70 indicated at half throttle. I also have a P200 running similar set-up with Malossi 210 and Big Box. It's not as fast on top end, but it and the Stella have been very reliable and a joy to ride. There's an art to tuning one of these bikes and yielding a reliable, fast rider. I can't fathom the amount of money and time I sank into these 2 bikes over time, getting them to where they are today. With this said, I would never own another stock bike, but I would be fearful riding a tuned bike that I didn't have a hand in. I got very good at sensing when a motor starts to get tight and pushing them home. I would never purchase a tuned bike not knowing what exactly is in it and how it was broken in. The only way I purchase is by knowing that regardless of stated condition, I figure on spending $$ sorting the bike to get it to my level of reliability. There's no way I could ever recoup my expenditures on mine and realize most who would have interest, would probably have the same uncertainty as I would. If you go down this road of building a fast, reliable scooter while thinking you're going to make money or recoup your investment in parts and matching alone, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Considering what I've learned along the way along with having several unique bikes, hopefully my upcoming Rally 200 build won't be as painful. Your bike looks very nice, hopefully you'll get the price you feel comfortable with.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1825

Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:35 pm quote
Willie B wrote:
I have several Ps that I have experimented with over time, trying various kits, carb and pipe variations, only to seize or burn holes in pistons. I learned a lot while burning through a ton of money along the way. I currently have a Stella running a 221 Polini/Malossi in Rally cases, Vespatronic, Vortex and vintage Taffspeed pipe. Polini suspension, Pinasco rims w/Heidenaus. Engine was built by Al and bike was sorted by John Gick. It's fast and cruises easily at 70 indicated at half throttle. I also have a P200 running similar set-up with Malossi 210 and Big Box. It's not as fast on top end, but it and the Stella have been very reliable and a joy to ride. There's an art to tuning one of these bikes and yielding a reliable, fast rider. I can't fathom the amount of money and time I sank into these 2 bikes over time, getting them to where they are today. With this said, I would never own another stock bike, but I would be fearful riding a tuned bike that I didn't have a hand in. I got very good at sensing when a motor starts to get tight and pushing them home. I would never purchase a tuned bike not knowing what exactly is in it and how it was broken in. The only way I purchase is by knowing that regardless of stated condition, I figure on spending $$ sorting the bike to get it to my level of reliability. There's no way I could ever recoup my expenditures on mine and realize most who would have interest, would probably have the same uncertainty as I would. If you go down this road of building a fast, reliable scooter while thinking you're going to make money or recoup your investment in parts and matching alone, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Considering what I've learned along the way along with having several unique bikes, hopefully my upcoming Rally 200 build won't be as painful. Your bike looks very nice, hopefully you'll get the price you feel comfortable with.
^^exactly!
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:03 pm quote
Yes, Willie, I get it now, no worries. If you tune a bike, keep it super mild, plan to take a bath, or plan to take it apart and return it to stock. I thought there was a path where someone would want it as is and I'd be giving them a steep discount on all that content but that's a hard sell. I never thought I'd get my money back or make money though - that's not how vintage scooters work! I'm having some fun with the unbuild and based on local scooters in Craigslist I expect to be able to sell in the upper 2k's, maybe $3k if I get lucky but I'll probably list at $2900, with new photos and description of how the bottom end was all gone through, fresh hone and rings, etc. I think I'll end up with a decent chunk of change from the parts I sell and I'll even get to keep my carb, manifold, banded clutch and S&S clutch cover while pretty much making my original price or even a bit more.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:25 pm quote
Well, I brought my cylinder in to some guys at work and they agreed with the cross hatch diagnosis. What you really need, they said, is a ball hone. So I ordered one up on Amazon. Would like to try my hand at getting a good cross hatch. They also said to push it in and out of the cylinder faster to get less circular marks and more cross hatch. Should be a nice chance to try another new thing.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:08 pm quote
I'm going to get the stats on this setup in case it goes extremely well or poor.

http://ddog.at/stz/rechnen.php

I went back to my trusty page above. It looks like I need distance from top of cylinder to the exhaust and transfers, which I've just taken down. Aside from that, once we've got a piston and cylinder attached, I guess I need intake open mm, intake close mm, and piston distance at TDC. With the engine buttoned up, I guess I will have to eyeball the crank open/close point, but then again, the degrees haven't changed from the Malossi setup, so I can probably just fudge the numbers to show the same intake opening and closing degrees as my last setup on the Malossi.

For now, waiting on packages: clutch corks (thanks Terry) and a ball hone. I got the rings and circlips. My garage sale is going well but no one has snagged the top end yet. I hear a lot of "good deal" on that, so I just need to wait that out. I'm trying to move the low compression head with the top end by suggesting it to all inquirers....
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1825

Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:50 pm quote
sdjohn wrote:
Yes, originally I was going to do trade/partial trade with my buddy who is selling a tuned PK (hard to find). But it struck me once I rode it that my Primavera is my bike, I built it, I know it inside and out, and even though it is slower I really like it, and I didn't really need to end up with 2 smallframes. So I decided to sell outright. Trades are smart for this type of situation.
Is that the ETS thatís on SD Craigslist?
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:09 am quote
Yes, thatís the one whodatschrome.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
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Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:41 am quote
Before 1

9F9ADB41-4808-44F8-8EB1-D96297F12E75.jpeg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:42 am quote
Before 2

4428BB21-6F07-4F82-B8A9-45D75C84ACDA.jpeg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:43 am quote
A bit of work on the polishing wheel gives after 1

12EE0E73-DA67-4F7E-B358-3E1345487610.jpeg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:44 am quote
And after 2. What remains are below the surface in both cases. It should be good to go.

18E04038-E40B-4425-BF8B-5EA19A1F4825.jpeg



Last edited by sdjohn on Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:45 am; edited 1 time in total
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:45 am quote
And a clean head

FFBDAEFE-A1EF-4B74-92C9-2983CB19EE1F.jpeg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:53 am quote
And I didnít care for after 1 when I saw it on here so I polished a bit more for after 3.

59E95E90-57CF-4D19-A440-68AD733AD272.jpeg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:08 am quote
So the one thing left to measure is the piston top height relative to the top of bore. Assuming 0 for the moment, it looks almost the same timings as my Malossi at the moment, albeit with less mass flow for sure . I will post again once I've fitted the parts and got that measurement sorted. This serves as a placeholder.

stockplus_timing1.jpg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:33 pm quote
Thinking ahead a bit to the jetting, I was inclined to go with 160/BE3 and 55/160 with whatever main makes it work, but I'm not sure with the extended intake and all if I need a different combo. Anyone have some o-tune experience that will help here? I'm inclined to use my 20.20 carb but could be convinced to let my DRT 24.24 go on here and hold that known good 20.20 for myself. (cost difference is small). Bear in mind that I intend to flip it, so maybe the 20.20 being good enough is OK by me.
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1619
Location: Veria, Greece
Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:37 pm quote
I would start with what you're already thinking. Main 125 - 132. I don't think you'll need something bigger. I would go for the 24...
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:58 pm quote
SaFiS wrote:
I would start with what you're already thinking. Main 125 - 132. I don't think you'll need something bigger. I would go for the 24...
My past experience is the 20.20 takes a main jet about 10 numbers smaller than the 24.24 for an equivalent setup. So yeah I was thinking to start with either 130 main (24.24) or 120 (20.20).

I have pretty much all of the atomizers and air correctors and a good selection of idle jets and main jets.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1557
Location: London UK
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:01 pm quote
I think the 20/20 will be just fine, especially as you are selling it.

The inlet is tuned, so needs less air. AC120/BE3 will work out. If you have a 52/140 this is better than the 55/160. Main jet set up as usual, keep increasing it until WOT floods and then back one size (or two).
Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2256
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:54 am quote
sdjohn wrote:
my Primavera is my bike, I built it, I know it inside and out, and even though it is slower I really like it
Re-reading this quote, I was reminded of some advice I heard from a Behavioral Economist one time. Paraphrasing from memory, "Human beings are terrible measurers, but we're great change detectors. Once you get used to something, it doesn't matter if it's the best, it will seem normal to you and you'll come to prefer it."

Similarly, I've been swapping between my Stella and my Sprint a lot depending on the weather. The Stella is slower, having the Sprint motor in it, heavier, but has MUCH better suspension. I had forgotten how much nicer the no-dive front fork and disc brakes are, but had gotten used to the front end on the sprint, so it just felt "normal" to me.

Anyways, I guess that's a long way of saying that whatever you ride on a regular basis, so long as it doesn't have issues with reliability or inability to get the job done in, say, a specific portion of your commute, it will be fine and you'll be happy with it.

This has been a great, albeit frustrating for you at times, thread and I've enjoyed reading and learning along with you. I'm sure that whatever you do, you'll be happy with it...for a while...
Enthusiast
P Series / Li / LML / Motobi
Joined: 24 Jun 2019
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Location: 3rd Rock From the Sun
Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:17 am quote
just an observation on the piston polishing.


you dont want to go for a mirror finish on the main body of the piston, the "satin" finish lends itself to capturing oil and aiding in lubrication. a mirror polished crown on the other hand
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:02 am quote
Should I give it a quick go with a scotch brite pad or emery cloth to scratch it back up a bit?
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:16 pm quote
Yea! Goodies arrived! Thanks Voodoo, but what are the lights for?

I got my ball hone too!

14961989-0E9B-43B8-9ADB-BCFB71CCFE2B.jpeg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7339
Location: seattle/athens
Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:30 pm quote
The fancy lites? Put on that P to add extra sales appeal & bump the price up... or use them on anything you like

I got a box of 'em so I like to spread 'em around. And every time I ride this bike I remember the rear hub you donated to the cause too.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:48 pm quote
So Voodoo what pipe is on there? I like the looks of that.
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1619
Location: Veria, Greece
Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:11 pm quote
Looks like a Leovince for a PK...
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:28 pm quote
And cross hatch!

B3861A81-C89E-41B0-835D-E7FC9FC5120A.jpeg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:39 pm quote
Ring gap #1

2E32F91B-3EE4-4C1A-A5D3-AF9933B3EA76.jpeg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:41 pm quote
Ring gap #2

2B2857DC-0990-4E15-9C72-15462B7DE9CB.jpeg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:42 pm quote
Piston to bore

46D96D3D-02D1-43CA-94F9-55773D660526.jpeg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:43 pm quote
Deshined

27E457B6-7163-4F06-9BBA-453D1E06D863.jpeg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:46 pm quote
According to the Lambretta rules of thumb from the Sticky manual, all of those measurements are a pass. Unfortunately I think I need to take that cylinder to the parts washer at work, itís hard to get the fine silver paste out of the ports, and I donít want to ruin what Iíve done by hurrying.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:47 pm quote
Clutch is next, corks are soaking!

image.jpg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7339
Location: seattle/athens
Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:46 pm quote
SaFiS wrote:
Looks like a Leovince for a PK...
Bingo! You should snag one for your smallie project, should be cheeep.


Some cutting & welding the header pipe connection got me this. But was still hanging too low , so reworking the mounting bracket, notching the casting pivot arm & carefully bashing the frame tucked it up & in nicely now, it's a tight fit as PKs have a big cavity underneath for the muff that this POS lacks..






/jack
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1315
Location: Florence, OR
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:03 pm quote
Very impressive Voodoo. Cutting and fitting an exhaust. You know how to mod the mod!
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