selling a de-tuned bike - project stock+ - sold
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Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1825

Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:07 pm quote
V oodoo wrote:
SaFiS wrote:
Looks like a Leovince for a PK...
Bingo! You should snag one for your smallie project, should be cheeep.


Some cutting & welding the header pipe connection got me this. But was still hanging too low , so reworking the mounting bracket, notching the casting pivot arm & carefully bashing the frame tucked it up & in nicely now, it's a tight fit as PKs have a big cavity underneath for the muff that this POS lacks..





/jack
Are those PK Leovince pipes even available anymore? I think their claim to fame was that you could run a spare tire with it on the PK's. I've been looking for one of those. No luck yet finding one.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
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Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
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Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:33 am quote
sdjohn wrote:
Piston to bore
What spec are you shooting for?
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
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Location: San Diego, CA
Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:48 am quote
.008Ē or more on rings, < 0.006Ē on piston to bore
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:10 am quote
Clutch in, piston on. Of course one of the new circlips went flying into the neverland of my bench, precipitating a bunch of cursing, 15 minutes of searching, and the inevitable conclusion that I must reuse one of the old ones.

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Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:03 am quote
Mystery clunk once per rev = clutch back out. Could it be the loose bearing retainer? Nope, but at least thatís sorted.

B4AC6A5C-780D-4CC6-B813-C84C366D6B2E.jpeg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:07 am quote
Aha, a witness mark on the clutch cover rib...

85D0BBB9-15AE-4A95-8271-270AFD8C9826.jpeg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:08 am quote
And the culprit, a bent tab on the clutch top plate!

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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
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Location: seattle/athens
Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:21 pm quote
That's what you get for using second hand crap without rigid QC!

Easy fix, I hope? Already done? Going for a test ride soon?
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:20 pm quote
It should be a simple remove the clutch and bend it back. Still no carb fitted and the top end needs a parts wash, test ride will be a while. Life can be busy!
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
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Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:02 pm quote
Easily sorted with needle nose, clunk is gone.

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Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
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Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:02 pm quote
That is of course the before pic
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
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Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:21 am quote
So after an extensive inventory and check on the bike's history, I've decided to start with BE5/140AC/120MJ/55-160 pilot with the SI20.20. The other pilots I have that might be of use are 45-140, 45-120, 50-120. Of those, I'd guess only the 45-140 is probably suitable. It's crazy how hard it gets to read those numbers on the main jets especially if they were tight and got marked in any way as you struggled to pull them out. I swear I'm going to throw away about 5 of them because I can't make out what the hell they are . At any rate I found jets through the one teens and one twenties, that should cover it. This bike seemed to like the 140AC but never has liked the 120AC. In fact, I think I drilled that 120AC out to become the fuel system bypass restriction . Hopefully this is enough brass to do the job.

Today I cleaned the cylinder and carb box up in the parts wash, ready for the next round of installation now.

Last edited by sdjohn on Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
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Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:54 pm quote
Top end is on! .060Ē piston to top end (1.5mm), and 3mm squish. Next up is the carb box stuff.

274349DC-B232-4687-B94A-58D62008B487.jpeg



Last edited by sdjohn on Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:06 pm quote
here is where it landed :

Screen Shot 2019-10-28 at 9.05.49 PM.png



Last edited by sdjohn on Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:06 am; edited 2 times in total
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1557
Location: London UK
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:32 pm quote
Are you sure your transfers are 47.5mm. Stock they are usually more like 49.5mm. If so, that timing is not going to go so well. It will run but won't pull very hard in 4th and won't justify doing the work.

If 47.5. Drop the cylinder to zero deck and it all looks a lot better. If you don't want to take off the cylinder just lift it up and cut off the packer.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:19 am quote
The cylinder has had 0.030Ē off the top and the head has had .080Ē off. If I pull the base gasket I will need 3.5mm of head gasket to keep the squish. Iíve only got 1.5 and 0.8, so 2.3 are available. Iíve got 2mm and 1.5mm packers, but Iím not thinking 0.5mm drop is worth the effort.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:19 am quote
Donít forget my 4th is the p125 ratio...
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
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Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:26 am quote
I couldnít measure the center port, the calipers had interference. Can you explain your concern so we can learn? Is it too low blowdown, or not enough transfer, or ?
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
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Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:27 am quote
Itís possible my measurements are off but the cylinder has been shortened so some of it is true.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:44 am quote
wait, I've got the kolbenstand wrong, it should be +1.5, not -1.5, right? The piston is not protruding. that makes these numbers:

Screen Shot 2019-10-29 at 5.48.49 AM.png

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1557
Location: London UK
Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:55 am quote
Unfortunately no. You were right the first time. It doesn't matter what has been taken off the top of the cylinder or head for the timing. Or even gearing at this stage. For this to go best the transfers need to be below 125 and blowdown 27 or more. With 0.5mm on the base this is where you will be.

However, if you cylinder only has 0.75mm taken off the top and the transfers are where they should be from the factory, then your transfers are now nearer 48.5mm or so. This is a different story if they are and 1.5mm base is correct. Maybe have another measure, this is quite important.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
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Location: UK (South East)
Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:02 am quote
That looks much better

A TD of 130 would have needed an ED of 190+ and all sorts of tuning goodies. It's good for 10,000+ RPM, so not good for a stock+ P2.

When did you get the cylinder shortened? I've always wanted to do the same and create decent power from a stock top end, but always ended up buying kits. Someday maybe!!


[Edit] oops, I glanced and saw 123 TD / 170 ED, but your latest calculation shows 115 TD !!
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
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Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:10 am quote
Jack, I'm going to take your word on the transfer port, I'm imagining that again I've measured the port edge and not the roof of the transfer, this happened in my other thread as well. The packer is currently 2mm. This would put us here:

Screen Shot 2019-10-29 at 6.10.01 AM.png

Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:13 am quote
swa45 wrote:
That looks much better

A TD of 130 would have needed an ED of 190+ and all sorts of tuning goodies. It's good for 10,000+ RPM, so not good for a stock+ P2.

When did you get the cylinder shortened? I've always wanted to do the same and create decent power from a stock top end, but always ended up buying kits. Someday maybe!!


[Edit] oops, I glanced and saw 123 TD / 170 ED, but your latest calculation shows 115 TD !!
A local machine shop did it for me (Racer's engine in Escondido CA)
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
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Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:03 am quote
Motoseal and scrapes are the rewards of my work on this. How do you get Motoseal off? Even Fast Orange doesnít get this off!

505211E4-787B-4A52-88E9-237B727395F4.jpeg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
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Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:06 pm quote
Todayís work is small, mount the carb. I spent 30 minutes looking for a socket- it was on my ratchet and it felt it come off but couldnít figure out where it went to. I tore apart my bench top and the whole area, only to find it stuck to the neodymium magnet on the back of my toolbox. I was so pissed while it was gone at the total loss if time, but seeing it there made me chuckle. Thatís a new one on me .

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Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
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Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:28 pm quote
Ok I lied, did some more. Cables sorted, tank installed, air hose on! Seat installed.

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Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
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Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:03 am quote
sdjohn wrote:
Motoseal and scrapes are the rewards of my work on this. How do you get Motoseal off? Even Fast Orange doesnít get this off!
Acetone. It will however feel "quite lively" in those scrapes.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:27 am quote
Yeah Iím not sure that would be great with the cuts. Itís almost gone now with regular hand washing over the course of a day. But nice to know, because it would be helpful for getting it off parts! Does it work on copper spray sealant as well? I hate getting that stuff off also.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
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Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:05 pm quote
When I shortened the throttle cable I saw a spring around the throttle tube, but itís hanging free. Was it formerly attached to the part of the throttle wheel I cut off to allow more throttle opening on the big carb?
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
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Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:10 pm quote
Clutch cable sorted, exhaust on, wheel on, spare on. Started right up! Timed to 20 degrees, just a few bits like the flywheel cover to go, then itís test drive time!
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
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Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:11 pm quote
Todayís funny moment: tried to kick start it with flywheel holder still attached
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
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Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:10 am quote
sdjohn wrote:
Clutch cable sorted, exhaust on, wheel on, spare on. Started right up! Timed to 20 degrees, just a few bits like the flywheel cover to go, then itís test drive time!
Well effin' YAY!

But John please calm down!

Did you hurt your foot or, more important, the merchandise?
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
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Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:11 am quote
No parts or humans harmed in yesterdayís testing, but I did literally stand on the kick start before figuring it out!
Enthusiast
P Series / Li / LML / Motobi
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Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:30 am quote
sdjohn wrote:
No parts or humans harmed in yesterdayís testing, but I did literally stand on the kick start before figuring it out!
hopefully you havent twisted the crank...
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
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Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:01 am quote
I donít weigh as much as I used to, Iím sure itís probably fine.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
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Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:35 am quote
It's funny, this little project has me keen to do another one. I am half thinking of selling both my P and my smallie in order to get the GTS I want and then to be able to do a new project.
Hooked
58 VB1T, 81 100 Sport
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Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:02 am quote
sdjohn wrote:
It's funny, this little project has me keen to do another one. I am half thinking of selling both my P and my smallie in order to get the GTS I want and then to be able to do a new project.
Sell the P, keep the Primi, Get the GTS even if you need to wait a bit longer. Then also get another project. how many scooters do you need? What ever you currently have, +1.

I'm also considering a GTS/V for commuting purposes, but also considering more new projects and/or unloading a project.... its tough decision to send a Vespa off into the wild unknown...

It's nice to have seen you document so much here, in your first Performance mod thread, and now your project stock+ thread. Good resources! Good luck!!
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
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Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:09 am quote
Yeah I'm definitely on sell the P at this point, but the Primi - maybe it waits for spring. I'm still pondering what would replace it, and the most likely answer that's been on my list for a while is a tuned VBB/Allstate on 8's. Not high horsepower, high strung tuned, but more torquey than the P turned out to be, while still running a stock type carb. I'm going to have to study up on the sub-200 block tuning options, but there's been a ton of project threads with them lately, so there is a lot to read!
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