Cosa 2 - clutch fell apart
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Member
Vespa Cosa 200 1994
Joined: 01 Oct 2019
Posts: 21
Location: Czech Republic
Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:05 am quote
Hello, I bought Cosa II 200ccm 1994 recently. It's my first vespa ever. I had fun. No more fun now.

Story:
In the morning I kick started the beast and after I've put in to the 1st gear, strange noises appeared, engine stalled and since that I wasn't able to start it again as the kick starter lever wasn't engaging...

Problems:
After some research on youtube and this nice forum I was suspecting it could be kick starter, clutch cable or clutch itself. Clutch cable seem to be ok, so I told myself let's check the clutch

Looking for solution:
During the removing the clutch cover I already felt that something is trying to get out and as soon the cover was removed, clutch basket fell out. Seems like the damn thing fell apart so please see the pics attached and kindly help me making the plan what is needed to be done next

What should I inspect next?
How to remove the clutch now, I guess holding tool will not help here :-/
Is Ok just to order just new clutch and I am ready to go?

Can you please validate my shopping list
from my current perspective I should order these parts:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/oring+clutch+cover+_92130000
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+ferodo+cosa+2+standard+_93030000

Thanks for your time, Bokeh.

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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
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Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:56 am quote
Not good, but you are on the right track. You will need to remove that nut in the center first, then the rest of your clutch should slide off - it is not on a taper like your flywheel. You should be able to do it without a special holding tool - use an impact gun or stuff a thick rope or old fuel line in thru the spark plug hole to stop the crank turning.

You will definitely need to replace that mangled retaining ring, but let's see the rest and get some more opinions if these parts or all is still useable without this happening again. Maybe as a spare if it's not too borked.

But you should be able to order your list & all will be well as the BEST reliable solution, just add an extra retaining ring - Cosa clutches are worth saving if possible.
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Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:40 am quote
It seems the clutch basket spread out to much for the retainer clip to hold the plates together. You will probably need a new entire clutch.

Good luck!
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1825

Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:17 pm quote
If you use an impact gun (which hopefully you have), make sure to wear a heavy welding glove if you're tempted to grab the rest of the clutch assembly with your hand (while using the impact). The basket will spin quickly and could tear up your skin if you try it bare handed.

I've bought a heavy duty "reinforced" SIP retaining ring before. It was made out of the cheapest, softest metal. I didn't realize it until my cluth sprang apart. I then very easily folded up the retaining ring with my fingers. So beware on cheap pattern parts.

I don't know why there's so much sealent on the clutch cover, they don't leak to often. But the parts i'd go after are...
-a new clutch nut (make sure to use thread lock.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/nut+m12x15+mm+hexagonal+_21214300

-clutch cover O ring.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/oring+clutch+cover+_92130000

-a complete clutch assembly of your choice (probably a 23 tooth unless you have some sort of other plans for your 200 engine). https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/ersatzteile/spare+parts++vespa+pxt5cosa-844/clutch++clutch+cover-843?
Member
Vespa Cosa 200 1994
Joined: 01 Oct 2019
Posts: 21
Location: Czech Republic
Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:08 am quote
thanks!
Thanks everybody for helpful tips. So I'll try my luck with impact gun and stuffing hoses into the engine seems pretty wild, but I guess it's my only chance.

Noob question: I would expect that after removing the clutch cover some oil would come out, but there was no oil. Is vespa clutch suppose to be in "oil bath" or it's separated from the gearbox and it's oil so basically it's kind of dry clutch?
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Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:07 am quote
Re: thanks!
bokeh wrote:
Thanks everybody for helpful tips. So I'll try my luck with impact gun and stuffing hoses into the engine seems pretty wild, but I guess it's my only chance.

Noob question: I would expect that after removing the clutch cover some oil would come out, but there was no oil. Is vespa clutch suppose to be in "oil bath" or it's separated from the gearbox and it's oil so basically it's kind of dry clutch?
A vespa clutch is "splash fed" with oil, so its not unusual to appear "dry", although one thing to definietly check is the level of oil you have in your gearbox. remove the filler that sits just above and behind the selector box cover and "fill till it spills" out of that hole
Member
Vespa Cosa 200 1994
Joined: 01 Oct 2019
Posts: 21
Location: Czech Republic
Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:31 am quote
Wish me Luck
Parts arrived quickly from SIP. Wish me luck, now!

IMG_1114.JPG

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Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:23 am quote
Good Luck
Member
Vespa Cosa 200 1994
Joined: 01 Oct 2019
Posts: 21
Location: Czech Republic
Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:48 am quote
rowdyc wrote:
It seems the clutch basket spread out to much for the retainer clip to hold the plates together. You will probably need a new entire clutch.

Good luck!
What could be the reason for the clutch basket to spread?
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Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:55 am quote
bokeh wrote:
What could be the reason for the clutch basket to spread
Power output beyond the clutch's ability to absorb and transfer it. Stock clutches are good up to about 16-18HP. Past that, you need to either add a reinforcing band or jump to a CNC'ed basket (like a BGM Superstrong) and better plates, like the CR80 job that SaFis just did.
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Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:24 am quote
Good luck with the reassembly. Take pics at each stage!
Member
Vespa Cosa 200 1994
Joined: 01 Oct 2019
Posts: 21
Location: Czech Republic
Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:42 pm quote
chandlerman wrote:
bokeh wrote:
What could be the reason for the clutch basket to spread
Power output beyond the clutch's ability to absorb and transfer it. Stock clutches are good up to about 16-18HP. Past that, you need to either add a reinforcing band or jump to a CNC'ed basket (like a BGM Superstrong) and better plates, like the CR80 job that SaFis just did.
Ok, but my Cosa is stock piece I guess, Never squeezed more than 95 km/h from her So still wondering... only thing is that I was kick starting it without any kindness, maybe too much kicking and hurry - could that be a reason for the clutch to end like this?
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Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:24 am quote
bokeh wrote:
Ok, but my Cosa is stock piece I guess, Never squeezed more than 95 km/h from her So still wondering... only thing is that I was kick starting it without any kindness, maybe too much kicking and hurry - could that be a reason for the clutch to end like this?
No, that wouldn't do it. The force of kick starting is pretty minimal compared to the force of the motor running.

Also, in that case, I'd expect the tabs of the clutch to be pretty chewed up, which yours clearly aren't. It could have been plain bad luck, or something the Previous Owner did, because they used an incorrect clutch nut and didn't properly seal the cover, so those might not have been the only mistakes they made.
Member
Vespa Cosa 200 1994
Joined: 01 Oct 2019
Posts: 21
Location: Czech Republic
Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:00 am quote
chandlerman wrote:
bokeh wrote:
Ok, but my Cosa is stock piece I guess, Never squeezed more than 95 km/h from her So still wondering... only thing is that I was kick starting it without any kindness, maybe too much kicking and hurry - could that be a reason for the clutch to end like this?
No, that wouldn't do it. The force of kick starting is pretty minimal compared to the force of the motor running.

Also, in that case, I'd expect the tabs of the clutch to be pretty chewed up, which yours clearly aren't. It could have been plain bad luck, or something the Previous Owner did, because they used an incorrect clutch nut and didn't properly seal the cover, so those might not have been the only mistakes they made.
So I was trying to pull the clutch out with the rope, I tried gently tapping with hammer Finally I extracted it with simple puller I made

But now thereīs even more questions than before... After removing the clutch I discovered that there is missing "rod/axle" powering the oil mixer, right? (show on second photo) so the cog wheel is turning there for no purpose and also missing 3 teeth (found one of them).

Do you think that the previous owner just removed the mechanism to power the oil mixer, or it was eaten by gearbox or is it normal to have this cog wheel without any function?
Anyway does it mean that my engine was running without oil? *after I bought it I did just 150km on it then the clutch broke. **and engine starts now without any problem

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my wire puller *5th version worked but I spent lot of time with that

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something is missing there, right?

Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2256
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:08 am quote
Yes, someone converted the bike to pre-mix, so if you haven't been adding oil directly to the gas tank, then it was not getting any oil. There should be a drive shaft there that powers the oil pump in the airbox.

If you look inside the mouth of the carb, there is a small hole on the back where oil is injected. If you have that hole, then unless the previous owner blocked up the channel, you should be able to just remove the airbox and replace the missing oil pump drive shaft.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1825

Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:49 pm quote
I wonder if there was an aftermarket retaining spring that was installed? How easy is it to bend and fold the nackered one with your hands?
Member
Vespa Cosa 200 1994
Joined: 01 Oct 2019
Posts: 21
Location: Czech Republic
Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:20 am quote
whodatschrome wrote:
I wonder if there was an aftermarket retaining spring that was installed? How easy is it to bend and fold the nackered one with your hands?
The material looks softer than it actually is. It's not easy to bend it with hands. See photo for comparison with other two I bought.

Clutch Basket Circlip PIAGGIO
Clutch Basket Circlip SIP

The old one is very similar to the PIAGGIO circlip.

EDIT: btw. I removed the clip in this shape from the engine

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Vespa GTS 150 3v SUPER. Vespa V100 x 1. Lambretta Li150 x 1. Px 125 x 2. Px 200 x 1 (red bull special) T5 Classic x 1. Vespa Cosa x 2.CF moto 650mt
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Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:22 am quote
Lucky you.
I had 2 Cosas. Loved them. Best scooters ever. Better than the PX and GTS anyday.
Hope you enjoy it.
Member
Vespa Cosa 200 1994
Joined: 01 Oct 2019
Posts: 21
Location: Czech Republic
Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:53 am quote
WTF
Hello everyone!

Today I finally completed the clutch fix and it seems it runs, but:

1. Only by the cable tensioner on the engine end I tune the settings of the clutch, nothing else? (I guess I need to tinker with it more because after few tries clutch engage on the very end of clutch lever depressing)
2. Sound of the engine is strange, are you able to help with identification of these sci-fi sounds it makes? I think it didn't make this noise before the clutch broke. Btw. I was running without functional autolube for at least 150 kms because the shop who sold it to me told me it works, but it wasn't even connected. So now I premixed oil and it finally makes that nice blue smoke as it should

See videos for the sound, please.

Molto Verboso
2005 PX150 In a Love-Hate Relationship with a 2-Stroke Vespa Since 2007
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Posts: 1813

Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:45 pm quote
Sounds like itís too late now, but I wouldíve checked to make sure that the drive gear/spacer behind the clutch wasnít on backwards. That can cause big problems if it is.
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Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:21 pm quote
^^^Right on that hardened spacer washer behind the clutch. There will be a chamfer on one side of the hole through it, this side goes in towards the crankshaft. There is a radius in the corner step of the crank where this goes. there to make the crank less likely to break in the corner and the chamfer in the spacer allows clearance for this. Put it on backwards and it won't seat all the way down. Tighten more or ride for a while and the hardened washer suddenly breaks because it won't bend. Not good.

OP, do you know for sure how it went on? It's NEVER to late to do it again and have it right .
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1825

Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:00 pm quote
Jim and Voodoo might have hit the nail on the head. If that spacer goes on backwards, the clutch won't seat all the way against the crank. Multiple things can happen. One of which is that the clutch basket will now rub against the clutch arm (instead of the clutch arm plunger). It causes the clutch to get partially depressed, then you have a clutch that is always partially slipping no matter how much you adjust the cable. Spend the 5-10 minutes to remove and inspect the clutch.
Member
Vespa Cosa 200 1994
Joined: 01 Oct 2019
Posts: 21
Location: Czech Republic
Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:56 am quote
V oodoo wrote:
^^^Right on that hardened spacer washer behind the clutch. There will be a chamfer on one side of the hole through it, this side goes in towards the crankshaft. There is a radius in the corner step of the crank where this goes. there to make the crank less likely to break in the corner and the chamfer in the spacer allows clearance for this. Put it on backwards and it won't seat all the way down. Tighten more or ride for a while and the hardened washer suddenly breaks because it won't bend. Not good.

OP, do you know for sure how it went on? It's NEVER to late to do it again and have it right .
Hi, not sure what you guys mean by that spacer washer. I just pulled the old clutch out and it looked like on the first pic here. Then I removed that cog which should power the autolube, because it has no purpose there. It was really hard job to pull the clutch out, by the way...

Then I put the new clutch on and then wrinkled washer and nut https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/nut+m12x15+mm+hexagonal+_21214300
Btw. putting the new clutch wasn't matter of pressing by hand but i had to press it there by tightening the nut to 42Nm torque. Woodruf key looked ok.

Then I installed new push rod kit https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/push+rod+kit+clutch+_87090000 closed the cover and did short test run. As I didn't like the sound I've opened the clutch cover to inspect if the clutch is rubbing the cover but it doesn't as shown on second and third photo.

Before installation the clutch I drained the old oil from gearbox and put there new SAE30 from SIP. New clutch was sunken in the oil (it was some other gearbox oil from Motorex, but I guess that doesn't matter much) for two days before installation as shown on last photo.

Have a nice day

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clutch after firsts short test run

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clutch after firsts short test run

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Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:45 am quote
You really should keep all the gears in there especially the one behind the clutch because it acts as a spacer, too.
They are saying the gear/spacer behind the clutch was on backwards. The flat side should face the clutch when installed.
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Vespa Cosa 200 1994
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Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:50 am quote
rowdyc wrote:
You really should keep all the gears in there especially the one behind the clutch because it acts as a spacer, too.
They are saying the gear/spacer behind the clutch was on backwards. The flat side should face the clutch when installed.
I removed just the one I marked here, the center one I didn't touch and put the clutch on it as it is on the photo - is that OK?

IMG_1168_2.JPG

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Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:15 am quote
Removing that gear should be OK. The other gear behind the clutch may need flipping and the flat side should face the clutch. The bevel side should face the crank.

From Scooter Mercato:
Clutch install is near the bottom of the page. Different motor but same concept.
http://www.scootermercato.com/Garage/Tech-Tips/Engine-Assembly-Part-1-Large-Frame
Member
Vespa Cosa 200 1994
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Location: Czech Republic
Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:32 am quote
rowdyc wrote:
Removing that gear should be OK. The other gear behind the clutch may need flipping and the flat side should face the clutch. The bevel side should face the crank.

From Scooter Mercato:
Clutch install is near the bottom of the page. Different motor but same concept.
http://www.scootermercato.com/Garage/Tech-Tips/Engine-Assembly-Part-1-Large-Frame
Ok, I will try to pull off the clutch and flip the cog/washer but strange is that it was there as it is on the photos - I wasn't flipping it and the clutch was ok (Until it fell apart)

Not sure if it's worth it, because as I sad previously I had to "press" the clutch in by screwing in the nut because it wasn't possible to do it by hand. So pulling it off will be very hard to do

EDIT: could there be any reason it worked OK with the old clutch and not with the new one?
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Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:37 am quote
The basket spreading on a non tuned motor is not normal or working properly. Could be the reason the basket spread. Don't know but do know the bevel side of spacer/gear should face the crank.

To make it easier to install clutch, make sure the woodruff key is all the way down into the hole. You may need to use a small tap and hammer to get it in there tight. I remove the clutch with two flat head screw drivers on each side of the clutch to pry it out but be careful.

Good luck!
Molto Verboso
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Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:46 am quote
You only need to flip it if it is the wrong way round. It's hard to see in your photo because there is a pooling of oil there. If the spacer in your photo is flat across the top and at the centre, then it's on the correct way. If the bevel or chamfer is at the top, you need to flip it.

Here is a picture of the spacer showing the side with the bevel/chamfer. This should be facing down, that is towards the main bearing.

spacer.jpg

Member
Vespa Cosa 200 1994
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Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:06 am quote
I still think that the spacer is positioned correctly. Attaching new photo, which shows that it is probably with the "non-bevel" side up as id should be.

Any other tips before I will check it anyway?

detail.jpg

Molto Verboso
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Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:27 am quote
yeah, clean the oil off that gear so that we all can see of there is a chamfer in it or not.
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Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:38 am quote
The bevel vs flat is indicated by viewing the inside hole not the entire gear/spacer.
Member
Vespa Cosa 200 1994
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Location: Czech Republic
Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:53 am quote
rowdyc wrote:
The bevel vs flat is indicated by viewing the inside hole not the entire gear/spacer.
Yes, I understand that, I think i don't see the bevel but it depends on your display brightness. I will pull the clutch off and check it, but I worry it's not that... Thanks for the tips given

detail.jpg

Member
Vespa Cosa 200 1994
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Location: Czech Republic
Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:22 am quote
Strange sound reasons
Somewhere I've read that sounds could be caused by flywheel cover. When I was tinkering with the scoot this weekend, once it fell on the side. Then I was putting it on side on purpose to get better access to clutch.
I will try to remove the flywheel cover, but I am running out of possibilities

WhatsApp Image 2019-10-29 at 17.08.19.jpeg

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Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:54 pm quote
whoa never seen that view under the skirt of a Cosa interesting.
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Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:11 pm quote
I'm looking at the drive oil shaft drive gear (which I understand has been removed at this stage) and wondering where the broken off teeth are? Unless the engine's been split there's probably a good chance they're siting somewhere in the gearbox by now... could that be the source of the strange sound or other problems with the clutch?
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Vespa Cosa 200 1994
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Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:09 am quote
Philos wrote:
I'm looking at the drive oil shaft drive gear (which I understand has been removed at this stage) and wondering where the broken off teeth are? Unless the engine's been split there's probably a good chance they're siting somewhere in the gearbox by now... could that be the source of the strange sound or other problems with the clutch?
Yes you are right, I've removed it.
The gear is missing three teeth and I found just one of them. But seems like the other two are missing for longer time as their break points seems to be older (more dirty). Hell knows where they are now

cog.jpg

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Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:35 am quote
looks to me to be evidence of sudden stoppage, most likely done by heat nips at some point in its existance
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Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:07 am quote
Gravelrash2004 wrote:
looks to me to be evidence of sudden stoppage, most likely done by heat nips at some point in its existance
What you mean by "heat nips"?

Sudden stoppage happened when the clutch circlip fell out, I guess - that's how it started.
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:55 am quote
bokeh wrote:
Gravelrash2004 wrote:
looks to me to be evidence of sudden stoppage, most likely done by heat nips at some point in its existance
What you mean by "heat nips"?

Sudden stoppage happened when the clutch circlip fell out, I guess - that's how it started.
heat nips - heat seizures.
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