Are Italian motorcycles any good?
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Molto Verboso
Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956 - Moto Guzzi Airone 250 Sport 1951
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:16 am quote
The topic title was inspired by me, there is a lot of talk about Chinese motorcycles and scooters that forget two and three-wheeled vehicles produced in Italy by Italian companies without Chinese participation.The novelty in the article I am reporting is that we have an Italian motorcycle with an automatic clutch, for the first time since many years after Guzzi and Aprilia.

EICMA MV Agusta
https://www.dueruote.it/foto/moto-scooter/2019/11/02/mv-agusta-novita-2020.html

A few days from the start of EICMA 2019 MV Agusta raises the veil on the novelties of the 2020 range. To mark the determination and the concreteness in the definition of the objectives for 2020 there is the beginning of the production in series of the Brutale 1000 RR, the naked four-cylinder which is a true Replica Superbike. 208 horses of maximum power, advanced chassis, advanced aerodynamic solutions, electronic management devoted to performance and safety: all these features make the new Brutale four-cylinder the synthesis of MV Agusta's manufacturing excellence. Already reached today, thanks to the attention and investments dedicated to research, design and development. From production lines to dealerships: Superveloce 800 Serie Oro and Superveloce 800 bring the timeless charm of the MV Agusta story to the streets, enhanced by seductive, classic and contemporary lines at the same time. Dragster 800 RR SCS and Brutale 800 RR SCS now mount the SCS 2.0 (Smart Clutch System), the clutch that disengages without touching the lever. A technical innovation that allows you to stop and start again without the hassle of managing the clutch itself, obtaining the best performance from the three-cylinder in-line engine with a counter-rotating crankshaft. All this with just 36 grams more weight than a traditional clutch. MV Agusta technology, at a more competitive price. Thanks to the rationalization of production and the efficiency achieved in the engineering phase, MV Agusta presents the Red Range, composed of Brutale 800, Dragster 800 and Turismo Veloce 800. The Red Range models are characterized by specific color and very rich equipment , despite the lowering of the price compared to those from which they derive.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190, Primavera
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:33 am quote
Hot. Assuming the red frame is real and the triple exhaust is too.

Superveloce_bianca.jpg

Molto Verboso
Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956 - Moto Guzzi Airone 250 Sport 1951
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:44 am quote
znomit wrote:
Hot. Assuming the red frame is real and the triple exhaust is too.
... undoubtedly you are a person who has good taste ...
Molto Verboso
2018 Vespa GTS 300 ABS- Bianco
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:52 am quote
Might be a great ride but not for me-too hunched over when moving. It looks like a ticked off cat?
Not that I want a MC but KTM is IMO the most innovative MC builder these days...
Molto Verboso
2013 Vespa 300 Super, 2007 Burgman 400
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:46 am quote
Italian Motorcycles
Attila,

Amazing visual appeal. I would expect nothing less from
you Italian masters of "Bella Figura". But, at last, I am too old and worn for the sport bike.

Thanks for your input - there seems to be a movement toward
less shifting.

Bob Copeland
Minnesota
Molto Verboso
Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956 - Moto Guzzi Airone 250 Sport 1951
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:11 am quote
Re: Italian Motorcycles
Bob Copeland wrote:
Attila,

Amazing visual appeal. I would expect nothing less from
you Italian masters of "Bella Figura". But, at last, I am too old and worn for the sport bike.

Thanks for your input - there seems to be a movement toward
less shifting.

Bob Copeland
Minnesota
Yes Bob, but in the living room would be a beautiful ornament ...
A friend put us a Kawasaki KH 750 three-cylinder two-stroke. In Italy in many clothing stores there are Vespas of various models (many with low headlights) with dressed mannequin on them. https://www.ilpontemediceo.it/VESPA-IN-VETRINA.htm
Ossessionato
2013 Honda NC700XD
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:30 am quote
Yes. Italian motorcycle are good. I had an Aprilia Mana. It was a hoot to ride.

I am intrigued by MV Agusta embracing clutchless shifting.
Molto Verboso
Xmax 300
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:06 pm quote
2020 MV Agusta Superveloce 800 Serie Oro = AUD $50,000 ride away.
Molto Verboso
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:13 pm quote
Strick wrote:
Yes. Italian motorcycle are good. I had an Aprilia Mana. It was a hoot to ride.

I am intrigued by MV Agusta embracing clutchless shifting.
Ditto. I loved my Aprilia Mana and I sold it to buy another Italian motorcycle...my Ducati Monster 821 which I also love.

And Strick I just noticed your legendary signature! Love it!
Hooked
GTS 300
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:16 pm quote
I was tootling along the Autobahn one day and heard the distinct sound of the MV Agusta coming up hard and fast.

Since I was in the passenger seat I was able to grab a camera and snap a few pictures .
Three riders all on MV 's grinning from ear to ear . Wow what a sound , wish i was able to find those pictures and figure out how to post them for ya'll .

Always wanted a Ducati , so my son in law in Germany found me an old Darma 650 that was a bodged up cafe racer style. I rode it to Hockenheim one day, but it caused my back so much pain I just laid around for the rest of the day sort of dreading the ride back home.

Never bought any Italian bikes until this year , I got my GTS Vespa.
I'll say it's a poor mans Ducati/MV Agusta/Moto Guzzi
Molto Verboso
Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956 - Moto Guzzi Airone 250 Sport 1951
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:06 pm quote
I will say that sports motorcycles are all quite tough, especially italian sports bike must be otherwise the roadholding that is linked to the roughness of the engines used on Ducati-MV - Aprilia becomes critical; i know this because many friends i know and have a scooter (even Vespa) for every day (their smart ones), they also have a sports motorcycle ... I call it the double soul.
As they say, it takes a good body ...
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:11 pm quote
Should have stuck with helicopters
Molto Verboso
Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956 - Moto Guzzi Airone 250 Sport 1951
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Location: Latina (Italy)
Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:20 pm quote
Buongiorno Motovista! Now here are 07, 20.
PS: Agusta still produces excellent helicopters:
https://www.leonardocompany.com/it/air/helicopters?gclid=Cj0KCQjw9fntBRCGARIsAGjFq5Fwvx6bCsPbcD75hrTTErtcPVwm4a0HgLNGwPjXW43t-35M2D1LXFsaAsb7EALw_wcB
Molto Verboso
Vespa GTS 250ie
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Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:02 am quote
Italian motorcycles would sell in very large quantities if the reliability was addressed across the board.
Many of us in the moto world lust after the 'bikes but are wary of the quality.
I have owned Moto Guzzi, Ducati, Aprilia, Piaggio and Vespa and found all of them wanting in quality when compared with Japanese bikes. Niggling things that seem easy fixes are common. I do not consider this part of ownership, "charming", rather maddening. Why can't Italy produce charm and quality? YMMV
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Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:48 am quote
Italians make beautiful things and German engineering is outstanding. In a perfect world a marriage of the two would make one hell of a motorbike.
Molto Verboso
Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956 - Moto Guzzi Airone 250 Sport 1951
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Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:50 am quote
SCTLVR wrote:
Italian motorcycles would sell in very large quantities if the reliability was addressed across the board.
Many of us in the moto world lust after the 'bikes but are wary of the quality.
I have owned Moto Guzzi, Ducati, Aprilia, Piaggio and Vespa and found all of them wanting in quality when compared with Japanese bikes. Niggling things that seem easy fixes are common. I do not consider this part of ownership, "charming", rather maddening. Why can't Italy produce charm and quality? YMMV
I have to make a premise to answer ... it's a question of culture whether you believe it or not; strange right?
I have asked this question many times in my life and others too, so much so that we already know the answer and this is why many Italians do not buy Made in Italy or if they do they endow themselves with a certain resignation.
Fiat cars are an example, we know it's like buying a lottery ticket but with results in reverse; we take into account the concrete possibility that something is broken and always after the warranty expires.
Same goes for (an example) Piaggio and so on ... but they sell equally and out of Italy, magic, everything works better or everything is resolved definitively, answer: culture of the country in which one operates.
Mind you, by culture I mean the general predisposition of a people to face life in a certain way.
Disconcerting, isn't it? I do self-criticism because this is how things are, who came to Italy and there has been enough to know that everything is different here and this makes us do wonderful things in all fields of knowledge and other but we are dispersed; good in projects and in design but mediocre in realizations, yet it would take little. Look at factories like Ferrari, are you ever inside watching how they work ...? They are Martians! They must be but they know that another thing counts: perfect and total customer assistance and spare parts service and speed of execution without compromising the results.
When I had the T Max I broke (in warranty) the petrol pump and it took too long to get it from the warehouse, Yamaha Italia ordered to remove one from a new vehicle, so the customer is kept! It is the gesture that struck me, understand?
One day I will take a picture at the back of my dealer (which is also Piaggio), there is a mountain (literally) of scooters piled up, crashed or blocked due to lack of spare parts or because they are not convenient to repair; most of Italian production. The fault lies with customers who do not do proper maintenance, customer service that is lacking and mechanics who are perhaps not so good ...
The Yamaha assistance I do from another seller because the scooter that I have now is a used one, bought with 400 km and three months I saved 1000 and for the guarantee the dealer that took him in exchange with a Kymko, was not authorized .
Well, the Yamaha mechanic is a robot! Precise and perfect in his work; the workshop always clean and tidy to the limit of extreme mania.
We leave the other workshop, better to keep quiet ...
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Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:05 am quote
There's a guy who rides a Guzzi V7 or V9 I see on my morning commute. I love the look of it and one day I caught up to him and told him if he ever wanted to sell it, contact me!

I've never sat on one but again I LOVE the look of the Moto Guzzi's!

I know some people are die-hard Ducati fans. I'm just not into the performance bikes as much. Though, much like the Vespa I hear from those die-hards that "Once I sat on the bike, I KNEW" and that's exactly how I felt on the Vespa.
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Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:06 pm quote
My late Father was a Triumph dealer and an owner. He knew from fixing other peoples bikes where the weak spots were. As a result he did more maintenance in some areas than was recommended and a lot of maintenance in areas that weren't prescribed.

He rode his bikes gently and was rewarded with more trouble free miles than was expected at the time. I learned from him and it's why I get more life out of my bikes and scooters than most.

The common belief back in the sixties was that it wasn't BMW that was reliable, it was the owners.

There are high mileage Italian bikes out there. The owners got them there.
Molto Verboso
Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956 - Moto Guzzi Airone 250 Sport 1951
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Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:17 pm quote
... yes ... you have said a great truth, the owner if habitual conductor lengthens the life of the vehicle but it must be him also a competent person in the use and maintenance. Look at my 1956 MV, I found and repaired it in 1976 but it was built in 1956; still today I own it even though (mea culpa) has been neglected for many years.
There must still be a basic quality otherwise it will break.
Guzzi has had bad times and it is only over a decade that he is producing again with high standards, they have understood that it is possible to produce relatively inexpensive but high quality motorcycles, too bad they only have that kind of engine.
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Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:21 am quote
Harbinger wrote:
Italians make beautiful things and German engineering is outstanding. In a perfect world a marriage of the two would make one hell of a motorbike.
There's an easier way to make truly spectacular Vespas. If Piaggio went to Yamaha for engines, that would create some great scooters. You get the heritage of Vespa and modern technology. Think about the Primavera or Sprint with the Yamaha LC 155 engine in it. Or the Xmax 300 engine in the GTS, MP3 500 with a T-Max engine (something like it is probably coming sooner than later). A limited 946 run with the Yamaha 155 engine would revitalize that model and they could probably get 12K each. And while they're getting engines in Calderara di Reno, they might find other companies that can help them make even better scooters.
Ducati has done special editions with high end aftermarket parts and Yamaha did an R1 with a lot of real high end components on it like Ohlins suspension, and sold the heck out of them, even though they were about a third more than the regular R1. What if Piaggio did a run of Vespas that weren't just a bunch of new stickers and seat covers on the same old bikes? People all over the world would pay a lot for a limited run of Vespa scooters with factory Minarelli engines and Malossi suspensions. The parts are already there, it's just a matter of bolting the things together.
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Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:37 am quote
List
If the Italian product used Japanese engines that would suggest that theirs were previously inferior.

Bill x
Molto Verboso
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Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:47 am quote
... I fear that sooner or later it will come to this, but the soul will die and only the shell will remain ...
Better to die and remain a legend, everything changes but in some cases there are marriages that you know from before ... they will not have children.
Molto Verboso
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Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:51 am quote
Re: List
Bill Dog wrote:
If the Italian product used Japanese engines that would suggest that theirs were previously inferior.

Bill x
Indeed they are but from what point of view?
Once again i have to explain that there are things that are bought first with the heart and then with the reason.
Who buys a Vespa sees the whole, engine and chassis as a single object and it matters relatively to make separate considerations.
It would be the death of the Vespa, Aprilia did it with the Leonardo 250 (Yamaha Majesty 250 engine) and Piaggio with the Hexagon 250 (Honda Foresight engine) but with poor sales results.
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Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:12 am quote
Re: List
Bill Dog wrote:
If the Italian product used Japanese engines that would suggest that theirs were previously inferior.

Bill x
It's a pipe dream, but IMHO, Vespa is the most iconic scooter in the world and Yamaha makes the best scooter engines being produced today. Piaggio could use Minarelli engines, not Yamaha engines. Italian engines in Italian scooters. In my version of events, Piaggio would buy a special engine from Minarelli made just for a small run of limited edition Vespas (same engine, different mounting points cast into the crankcase, so they bolt right in), and charge a bunch for the resulting special edition scooter. I'll bet there are at least 10,000 people in the world who would pay $12,000-15,000 or more for a limited edition GTS with a Yamaha 300 engine in it, if it was marketed right with other upgrades. Do the same thing with the Primavera, Sprint, 946, and that number goes way up (and it's Cannonball Eligible).
And you're basically sticking a scooter engine that already exists into a scooter body that already exists. Visually Bitubo shocks are very appealing. And Piaggio already has a deal with them to make shocks for the MP3. Add those, a visually appealing wave rotor on the brakes, colored brake lines, different rims, and a bit of Rizoma, and you would have a real limited edition scooter that can easily justify $12,000-$15,000 to enough hard core Vespa fans. There are people who would buy one of each color. And this is the sort of project that might appeal to Yamaha.
Before Piaggio bought them, every Aprilia motorcycle and scooter had a motor in it made by someone else. Aprilia didn't make their own engines for a long time. One of the reasons it was possible for so many small Italian motorcycle and scooter companies to rise and prosper while making relatively few units, is that many of them didn't develop their own engines. Malaguti was one of the first companies to buy Kymco engines for their big scooters.
Possible? Yes. Probable? No.
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Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:18 am quote
Shelf
From the buyers point of view obviously.

Why does that Italian product have a Japanese engine ?

Maybe the Italians have admitted the Japanese make a better one.

What does that say about our product ?

Bill x
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Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:27 am quote
Cosworth Vega
Detomaso Pantera
Sunbeam Tiger
Aston Martin Vantage
Jenson Interceptor
Infiniti QX30
Saturn VUE Redline
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Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:30 am quote
Bosh
Yup, all using other peoples engines and all the better for it.

I think that pride has got a lot to do with it also.

Bill x

Last edited by Bill Dog on Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:31 am quote
Re: Shelf
Bill Dog wrote:
From the buyers point of view obviously.

Why does that Italian product have a Japanese engine ?

Maybe the Italians have admitted the Japanese make a better one.

What does that say about our product ?

Bill x
Meh... if by our product you mean Piaggio they do a pretty good job. I can't really speak to the other Piaggio offerings but the Vespa is a pretty damn good scooter. I'm not saying it is the best mechanically but it is good enough and far from crap. Aesthetically... IMHO Vespa wins hands down for smallies and the lower CC level of maxi-scooters. Can it be better? Sure add a Malossi kit, J. Costa, Bitubo shocks and a Forcemaster plus premium exhaust and you have a GREAT 300 CC scoot. Unfortunately that adds a lot to the cost but I think the stock scoot is still a good product. Expensive? Yes... you pay the price for beauty and the Italians are very good at charging for said good looks. I think Piaggio has done a good job with the Vespa line and the fact that they haven't ruined the brand over the decades and gone the way of Lambretta speaks well of them. Not to mention they were always better than Lambretta mechanically. You can argue that a well maintained Lambretta was a reliable scoot but your typical rider should not have to worry about constantly maintaining their vehicle beyond bringing it to the dealer for the recommended service intervals.
Molto Verboso
Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956 - Moto Guzzi Airone 250 Sport 1951
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Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:37 am quote
They were losing market shares, Bill ... and to keep them waiting for new and bigger engines, they bought them from the Japanese who also advertised themselves at the same time.
The largest Piaggio 4-stroke scooter engines were 200 cm3 (Beverly - Vespa Granturismo) but they arrived in 2003.
Molto Verboso
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Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:46 am quote
Re: Shelf
Harbinger wrote:
Bill Dog wrote:
From the buyers point of view obviously.

Why does that Italian product have a Japanese engine ?

Maybe the Italians have admitted the Japanese make a better one.

What does that say about our product ?

Bill x
Meh... if by our product you mean Piaggio they do a pretty good job. I can't really speak to the other Piaggio offerings but the Vespa is a pretty damn good scooter. I'm not saying it is the best mechanically but it is good enough and far from crap. Aesthetically... IMHO Vespa wins hands down for smallies and the lower CC level of maxi-scooters. Can it be better? Sure add a Malossi kit, J. Costa, Bitubo shocks and a Forcemaster plus premium exhaust and you have a GREAT 300 CC scoot. Unfortunately that adds a lot to the cost but I think the stock scoot is still a good product. Expensive? Yes... you pay the price for beauty and the Italians are very good at charging for said good looks. I think Piaggio has done a good job with the Vespa line and the fact that they haven't ruined the brand over the decades and gone the way of Lambretta speaks well of them. Not to mention they were always better than Lambretta mechanically. You can argue that a well maintained Lambretta was a reliable scoot but your typical rider should not have to worry about constantly maintaining their vehicle beyond bringing it to the dealer for the recommended service intervals.
Harb ... the Lambretta has always been more complicated and heavier, those who bought scooters wanted an object as simple as possible on all sides ... especially for DIY maintenance
(DIY means doing it yourself? I try to improve the my english pigdin ... hahahaha!) ...sorry...I really like to joke.
And ... yes, you're right ... Vespa can be better with little and with few expensive modifications; at the gatherings of these parts many make improvements; the first is the damn side stand that snaps on its own ...

Last edited by Attila on Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:47 am quote
Look at how much they can charge for the 946, or their $8000 electric moped.
And again, the Italian motorcycle industry has a long history of companies using one another's engines. Minarelli is an Italian company that makes scooter and ATV engines in Italy. They already supply engines to a lot of manufacturers throughout Europe. This is not as big a stretch as expecting Piaggio to come up with an engine like the one in the Majesty S/SMax on their own and stick it in the 946 sometime in the next fifty years.
It's not going to happen, but it could. That would be a great Italian scooter.
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Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:52 am quote
List
You're all missing my point I think.

If an Italian manufacturer decided to put a Japanese engine in it's scooter the prospective buyer would question why they chose to do that as opposed to them fitting their own.

It would imply that their unit wasn't as good as their in house engine.

The fact that it would probably be more economical to buy units in than to design, R and D and manufacture their own would be ignored as it would be the sacrilegious act of fitting the competitions unit to an Italian scooter that would be used as an excuse not to buy one.

If that makes sense.

Bill x
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Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:54 am quote
... oh yes Motovista... also because today the joint ventures are made for many other reasons ... survival is the first, quality the second.
Today, those who can buy quality, I know ... when my kiwis are still as small as a nut, I'm going to throw down the smallest and most deformed ones to keep the few bigger and better and make better quality. Today quality pays even more than some time ago.

Last edited by Attila on Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:59 am; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
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Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:58 am quote
Re: List
Bill Dog wrote:
You're all missing my point I think.

If an Italian manufacturer decided to put a Japanese engine in it's scooter the prospective buyer would question why they chose to do that as opposed to them fitting their own.

It would imply that their unit wasn't as good as their in house engine.

The fact that it would probably be more economical to buy units in than to design, R and D and manufacture their own would be ignored as it would be the sacrilegious act of fitting the competitions unit to an Italian scooter that would be used as an excuse not to buy one.

If that makes sense.

Bill x
.. sorry ... forget BMW with its scooters and also Kawasaki (J 125 - J 300) are all Kymkos (the 400 BMW too?) yet they are sold even if the price is higher than the corresponding models. Evidently the name ennobles.

Last edited by Attila on Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:59 am quote
Gong
I didn't understand a word of that.

As Motovista correctly says engines, chassis and gearboxes are shared and bought all over the motor industry as they suck up pretty much all of the development costs but I'd say a very high percentage of buyers are ignorant of it, mainly because it's not important to them.

A scooter or motorcycle buyer is a little more involved in the process because it's more of an emotive act.

Tell me I'm wrong ?

Bill x
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Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:04 am quote
Future
If MV Agusta bought in Honda engines no one would buy their bikes.

I'll bet the farm on that.

Bill x
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Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:07 am quote
"Tell me I'm wrong? "
No ... at least not completely, you are right only if the involvement is total (in my opinion) but not everyone buys for love; paraphrasing it can be said that some marriages are only of convenience and others of love and convenience.
When you buy a vehicle for some it is a bit like falling in love, then it depends on whether the love grows; the advantage is that divorce is cheap and always gives something back.
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Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:12 am quote
Re: List
Bill Dog wrote:
You're all missing my point I think.

If an Italian manufacturer decided to put a Japanese engine in it's scooter the prospective buyer would question why they chose to do that as opposed to them fitting their own.

It would imply that their unit wasn't as good as their in house engine.

The fact that it would probably be more economical to buy units in than to design, R and D and manufacture their own would be ignored as it would be the sacrilegious act of fitting the competitions unit to an Italian scooter that would be used as an excuse not to buy one.

If that makes sense.

Bill x
I don't think that's how they would market it.
HD made a big deal out of hiring Porsche to help design the heads on their V-Rod motor. Porsche made less of a deal out of hiring Yamaha to help design the heads on one of their projects.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Modded Vespa 2017 GTV 300, BMW 2017 C650GT, Ural 2019 Gear Up
Joined: 21 May 2017
Posts: 5659
Location: Downtown Toronto
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:18 am quote
Re: List
Attila wrote:
Bill Dog wrote:
You're all missing my point I think.

If an Italian manufacturer decided to put a Japanese engine in it's scooter the prospective buyer would question why they chose to do that as opposed to them fitting their own.

It would imply that their unit wasn't as good as their in house engine.

The fact that it would probably be more economical to buy units in than to design, R and D and manufacture their own would be ignored as it would be the sacrilegious act of fitting the competitions unit to an Italian scooter that would be used as an excuse not to buy one.

If that makes sense.

Bill x
.. sorry ... forget BMW with its scooters and also Kawasaki (J 125 - J 300) are all Kymkos (the 400 BMW too?) yet they are sold even if the price is higher than the corresponding models. Evidently the name ennobles.
By the name if you mean paying the BMW "tax" for the rondel.. Sure maybe a little but BMW still monitors the construction and outside of the Kymco engine the C series is all German and BMW. The build quality and performance is excellent, just read a few reviews. My C650GT is a great scoot and damn the thing can haul and stop on a dime. Heated grips, heated seat with separate settings for pillion and rider, electronic windscreen, tons of storage and build quality all say BMW. You may pay a little extra but you get what you pay for. I've compared it to other brands in the same/similar CC range and size and IMHO the BMW is the king of the hill .
Molto Verboso
2013 Vespa 300 Super, 2007 Burgman 400
Joined: 30 Mar 2014
Posts: 1545
Location: Minneapolis USA
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:23 am quote
Quality - Defined as Minimal Mechanical Problems
Before the Japanese entrance to the auto/Motorcycle market place, everything busted, broke down and did not last. Most households had tools in their home garage and wrenched and tinkered away. You had to sell your car before 50,000 miles because it would completely fall apart, chucking transmission and other main components.

My father was a career Auto Dealership Service manager. In the 1960's I would work part time at the dealership doing odd jobs. The service manager would receive regular bulletins from Ford titled " the 50 most common things to go wrong on the new current model year Ford. When customers came in for service, the service manager knew immediately what was wrong. Some was covered under warranty, much was not. Regularly, my Dad would have his mechanics adjust and fix the stuff on the go wrong list as customers came in. He was almost terminated from his employment, at the request of Ford, for turning in to many warranty requests.

JUXTAPOSED These folks,who brought us Pearl Harbor, come along and produce a product that can easily go to 200,000 mile, not chuck its transmission, and have minimal mechanical defects. Obviously, you have to follow routine maintenance .

Attila may be correct. The Japanese labor insanely to eliminate problems, while the Italians, with low blood pressure, take a break and have a cappuccino.

So, I guess we need to thank those kamikaze quality fanatics for their contribution to our automotive/scooter culture.

Bob Copeland
Frost Bite Falls Minnesota
Land of 10,000 Scoots Rally   Vespa Wasp Pin Badges   Yelcome Leather Top Cases and Roll Bags for Piaggio Vespa PX LX LXV GTS GTV
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