Who here has a scoot w/ P200 motor 8" wheels?
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1981 P200E
Joined: 01 Aug 2015
Posts: 43
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:17 pm quote
I know Stuarttiainen built his Allstate up in this format, and White Lion Matt from Atlanta has chimed in about doing this kind of build.

Has anybody else had experience with a P200 lump in a VNB. Specificly what the ride is like if you do the 8% up-gear? i.e. how close does it accelerate compared to a stock P200E? Does it err on the side of being torqy, or is it pretty restrained?

I'm planning a scoot like this, but want to see if there are any roadblocks that I can avoid that others may have run into. So if you have ridden or built a bike like this please drop a comment.

Thanks!



edit: To be clear, I mean how does it drive if you do the up-gear. I know that if you just put the engine in with 8" wheels it will do wheelies all day every day and that it will cap the top speed to about 50mph.
Hooked
1960 Series 2 Lambretta, 1962ish API series 2 Lambretta, 1974 Vespa Super 150, 1978 Rally 200, 1965 Allstate VNB
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 263
Location: Eau Claire, Wisconsin
Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:49 pm quote
Following this thread as a VNB with a P200 is the build I'm collecting parts for now.

I love the idea of rapid acceleration with a 50mph or so top end. (In fact that's pretty much exactly what I'm hoping for.)
Member
1981 P200E
Joined: 01 Aug 2015
Posts: 43
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:51 am quote
pemkt wrote:
Following this thread as a VNB with a P200 is the build I'm collecting parts for now.

I love the idea of rapid acceleration with a 50mph or so top end. (In fact that's pretty much exactly what I'm hoping for.)
Sweet. I can't wait to see your build. Hopefully someone has some experience with this combo. I was hoping to keep the cruising speed more comparable to the P200E that is my current daily, so I'm more likely to do the gear adjustment. I've got a chronic fear of seizing an engine (again) so riding a high revving P engine every day sounds a bit too stressful for my taste. That said, it sounds like alot of fun at red lights!
Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '76 Sprint V. - '86 PX200E - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 389
Location: Belgium
Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:50 pm quote
I have a VBB200 without the regearing though. Iím still breaking it in, so not much to tell, but like the way it rides for the moment.
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 3963
Location: That bushfire place
Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:01 am quote
Mix-n-match
Speedy has late model PX (EFT?) gearbox in 2-port VBC-1 cases, on 8"... so heres a starting point.

modify VBC 2-port - the DYNO RESULTS are (finally) in ... (Page 3)
Enthusiast
1x VNA1T, 1x GS200
Joined: 16 Jun 2015
Posts: 83
Location: Brisbane, QLD
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:40 pm quote
I'm super happy with my VNA... I have now put a 210 malossi kit on it with a malossi box pipe.. it'll cruise at a genuine 95kmh which is all I want to do on the split 8in rims!!
Enthusiast
1x VNA1T, 1x GS200
Joined: 16 Jun 2015
Posts: 83
Location: Brisbane, QLD
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:43 pm quote
I've also just recently finished my 1956 VN Sei Giorni replica build with 8in wheels and malossi 221 sport... it's a pretty fun ride, similar top speed but loads of torque. I topped it out at 113kmh with the 10in conversion rim on the back.
Member
Vespa 152l2
Joined: 04 Dec 2018
Posts: 22
Location: location
Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:50 am quote
You need to check your engine specifications using the gearing calculator on Scooterhelp.
https://www.scooterhelp.com/tuning/vespa.gear.calc.html

I am using a PX150 engine with an 8 inch wheel on my VNA. If I hadn't changed the primary drive I would have been doing 48 mph top speed!
Addicted
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 578
Location: tampa
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:44 am quote
Stuarttiainen wrote:
I've also just recently finished my 1956 VN Sei Giorni replica build with 8in wheels and malossi 221 sport... it's a pretty fun ride, similar top speed but loads of torque. I topped it out at 113kmh with the 10in conversion rim on the back.
we would like to see pictures!
Addicted
1974 Rally 200, 1974 Rally 200 with sidecar, 1966 Bluebadge, 2012 Stella 4T
Joined: 09 Apr 2009
Posts: 568
Location: Atlanta
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:47 am quote
Re: Who here has a scoot w/ P200 motor 8" wheels?
P200Ezrider wrote:
I know Stuarttiainen built his Allstate up in this format, and White Lion Matt from Atlanta has chimed in about doing this kind of build.

Has anybody else had experience with a P200 lump in a VNB. Specificly what the ride is like if you do the 8% up-gear? i.e. how close does it accelerate compared to a stock P200E? Does it err on the side of being torqy, or is it pretty restrained?

I'm planning a scoot like this, but want to see if there are any roadblocks that I can avoid that others may have run into. So if you have ridden or built a bike like this please drop a comment.

Thanks!

:D

edit: To be clear, I mean how does it drive if you do the up-gear. I know that if you just put the engine in with 8" wheels it will do wheelies all day every day and that it will cap the top speed to about 50mph.
These are some helpful ratios to look at. With todays options,like DRT, the 25/62 with P200 trans and 8's would be you best option.

Stock P200 with 10's (65mph at 6000rpms)
Stock P200 with 8's (55mph at 6000rpms)
Stock Super 150 with 8's (55mph at 6000rpms)
Stock Super 150 with 10's (64mph at 6000rpms)
Super 150 trans with P200 primary on 8's (59mph at 6000rpms)
Super 150 trans with P200 primary and a DRT 24 (61.5mph at 6000rpms)
Super 150 trans with Malossi 8% (63mph at 6000rpms)
Stock P200 trans with DRT 25/62 on 10's (74mph at 6000rpms)
Stock P200 trans with DRT 25/62 on 8's (63mph at 6000rpms)



When I built my 100mph GTR I had a Super 150 trans with a an 8% Malossi with a non street pipe, and special air foil front end "and adult diapers" and that engine would rev out to almost 10,000rpms The DRT gears didn't exist back then.
On a standard 3.5x10 (74mph at 6000rpms)
Enthusiast
1x VNA1T, 1x GS200
Joined: 16 Jun 2015
Posts: 83
Location: Brisbane, QLD
Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:55 pm quote
That's the combo I'm using Mattgyver 25/62 with P200 trans and 8's

20191126_115128.jpg

Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '76 Sprint V. - '86 PX200E - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 389
Location: Belgium
Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:48 am quote
Stuarttiainen wrote:
That's the combo I'm using Mattgyver 25/62 with P200 trans and 8's
That's a sweet scooter!
Member
1981 P200E
Joined: 01 Aug 2015
Posts: 43
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:14 am quote
Re: Who here has a scoot w/ P200 motor 8" wheels?
Mattgyver wrote:
P200Ezrider wrote:
I know Stuarttiainen built his Allstate up in this format, and White Lion Matt from Atlanta has chimed in about doing this kind of build.

Has anybody else had experience with a P200 lump in a VNB. Specificly what the ride is like if you do the 8% up-gear? i.e. how close does it accelerate compared to a stock P200E? Does it err on the side of being torqy, or is it pretty restrained?

I'm planning a scoot like this, but want to see if there are any roadblocks that I can avoid that others may have run into. So if you have ridden or built a bike like this please drop a comment.

Thanks!



edit: To be clear, I mean how does it drive if you do the up-gear. I know that if you just put the engine in with 8" wheels it will do wheelies all day every day and that it will cap the top speed to about 50mph.
These are some helpful ratios to look at. With todays options,like DRT, the 25/62 with P200 trans and 8's would be you best option.

Stock P200 with 10's (65mph at 6000rpms)
Stock P200 with 8's (55mph at 6000rpms)
Stock Super 150 with 8's (55mph at 6000rpms)
Stock Super 150 with 10's (64mph at 6000rpms)
Super 150 trans with P200 primary on 8's (59mph at 6000rpms)
Super 150 trans with P200 primary and a DRT 24 (61.5mph at 6000rpms)
Super 150 trans with Malossi 8% (63mph at 6000rpms)
Stock P200 trans with DRT 25/62 on 10's (74mph at 6000rpms)
Stock P200 trans with DRT 25/62 on 8's (63mph at 6000rpms)



When I built my 100mph GTR I had a Super 150 trans with a an 8% Malossi with a non street pipe, and special air foil front end "and adult diapers" and that engine would rev out to almost 10,000rpms The DRT gears didn't exist back then.
On a standard 3.5x10 (74mph at 6000rpms)
Great info, Thanks for the response. This is my first time possibly doing a non-stock engine/body combo as well as modifying the engine. So forgive the stupid question, but when I wrote my question it was about the Malossi 24/63 kit. how does that compare to the DRT 25/62? are they nearly identical, or alternatly, is there a pro/con opinion about these two options?

I'm doing a P200 motor swapped into a VNB, and keeping the 8" wheels for various reasons, so I wanted to know not just how fast the top speed was, but also how it performed overall (if you would compare it to a bone stock P200).

Thanks again!
Addicted
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 578
Location: tampa
Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:30 pm quote
Stuarttiainen wrote:
That's the combo I'm using Mattgyver 25/62 with P200 trans and 8's
love the look of your bike! well done sir..
Addicted
1974 Rally 200, 1974 Rally 200 with sidecar, 1966 Bluebadge, 2012 Stella 4T
Joined: 09 Apr 2009
Posts: 568
Location: Atlanta
Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:43 pm quote
The DRT 25/62 on 8 inch is going to give you almost the same ratio as the P200 trans on 10 inch wheels. So it will excel just like a p200 and top out almost the same.
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 3963
Location: That bushfire place
Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:10 pm quote
Re: Mix-n-match
SubEtherBASS wrote:
Speedy has late model PX (EFL?) gearbox in 2-port VBC-1 cases, on 8"... so heres a starting point.

modify VBC 2-port - the DYNO RESULTS are (finally) in ... (Page 3)
To quote myself: why not consider this...

Option "B"
Primary: 24/63
1st: 12/55
2nd: 13/40
3rd: 17/37
4th: 21/37

The speeds vs revs are as follows...
Revs: 5000...6000...6500...7000...7500...8000...8500.
1st:....29......35......38......41.......44.......47.......50
2nd:...44......52......57......61.......65.......70.......74
3rd:...62......74.......80......86......92.......99.......105
4th:...76......92.......99......107.....114.....122.....130km/h

Rev drop between gears (otherwise known as: will it stay on the pipe?")
1-2= 2500-2800rpm drop
2-3= 2500rpm drop
3-4= 1500rpm drop
[/quote]

So, after a good lengthy ride this past weekend, fully loaded & mostly as a cruisy pace (leader was goin 85kmh on GPS)... These are the results...

Revs: the revs were down a bit, but i guessed that as still need to book a dyno, & rebuilt carb (fuel was pouring out) night before rally, then there was an airleak (revs would stay high between gears, & after 20-30 sec at lights the revs would go up), so it was a sedate (for me) ride... Potential revs vs actual revs do differ,& in reality its always goin to be lower.

Resistance: wind, hills, other riders, riding a brick, rider & luggage weight, friction, scoot components age & numerous other factors cause resistance... Which in reality is more than you expect.

Reality: while a calculator is a great thing, its a rough guide only, & even physics change the outcome.

These are my REAL results (as much as i could remember & write down while riding...

There is a nice rev range, just below the powerband, which if you sit there, its easy (from those revs) to accelerate, get up a hill, pass someone,or simply take-off into the distance ... However its easy to sit & cruise at this speed/rev all day & watch the scenery.

Above that there is the powerband, where fun is to be had & egos enlarged... However its only for shorter periods & generally for accelerating quickly, going up hills , pass etc, but unlikely the motor will last 100's of constant kms at this range.

Then there is MAX speed/revs, the bit you use on real steep bits, or where you want to be right in the powerband (if your gears are spaced too far apart), or when you need to extract every possible rev to hang on the lower gear till after the guy on the harley changes first & loses momentum, which is short-term thing & will make your motor explode/fail/cook real quickly!

... So what was the REALITY of Speedys setup?

125 & 122 relate to differences due to a jet change.
Top rev appears to be 7000-7500rpm (likely more, but counteracted by additional weight).
3rd will rev more than 4th as there is less load & motor has better ratios vs resistances, i guess this is why dyno results are done in 3rd gear.

... So what is to be learnt?

When calculating gearing & Revs (using aforementioned calculator), use 4500-6000 as your cruising range, 6000-7000 as your powerband, & 7000-7500 as top revs... Then you will be in a realistic reality.
Yeah, it will be quicker without so much luggage, & after a damn good tune, but thats a bonus!
Perfection was 84kmh in 4th, it seemed to keep going back to that speed on its own, then goe all antsy trying to bolt![/quote][/quote]

These seem pretty accurate... Hmmm... More revs than I thought [/quote]

Heres a gearing calc to play with:
http://gearingcalc.free.fr/

7425FD92-0DE2-4E32-86D9-99806DD7C5B3.jpeg
Dyno results.
NPTE: this is for a VBC 2-port on 8", but with PX GEARING, but its a good reference for SPEEDS (but HP will differ)
& the all important... SPEED !

1st = 34km/h (defo not full throttle)
2nd = 61 km/h (ditto)
3rd = 32 km/h to 108 km/

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2505

Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:27 pm quote
Stuarttiainen wrote:
That's the combo I'm using Mattgyver 25/62 with P200 trans and 8's
The size of that tank! Kinda looks like a lowered "Six Days"? Definitely looks sweet.
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