Start up problem Vespa GTS 300 2013
Post Reply    Forum -> General Discussion
Author Message
Member
Vespa GTS 300 2013
Joined: 24 Dec 2019
Posts: 17
Location: Los Angeles
Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:15 pm quote
So in the last 4 weeks, my vespa when it has been sitting for more than a couple hours, takes about 10 seconds to start. After that, it rides fine, it will start back up fine, and everything else just fine. But when its been sitting for 8-12 hours with out being turned on it does this.

(link to the video of it starting)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oigjoxkmudsdba3/IMG_2990.MOV?dl=0

I live in Los Angeles, and it has been chilly out, and a little wet the last month or so. Once it starts up, everything is fine. Even if I got run errands, it starts up normal. Just the initial startup after resting for a few hours.

What do we think is causing it to do that? Is it an easy fix? Where would I get the part to fix it?
Addicted
2013 GTS 300ie
Joined: 14 Feb 2013
Posts: 580
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:41 pm quote
First step is to test the battery. I've had batteries act like that as a precursor that they finally stop holding a charge.
Member
Vespa GTS 300 2013
Joined: 24 Dec 2019
Posts: 17
Location: Los Angeles
Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:06 pm quote
Cheshire wrote:
First step is to test the battery. I've had batteries act like that as a precursor that they finally stop holding a charge.
The first day this happened, I trickle charged it overnight, and it did it the next morning as well. Then it runs fine for the rest of the day. The battery is from 2014
Hooked
50cc Beo, BigBeo
Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 158
Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:03 am quote
Check your air filter. Especially if you have replaced/cleaned it recently and used foam filter spray for it, or the opposite - forgot about it for too long.

Some sprays are too thick, which prevents air transmission for some time. Then air "makes ways" in it for some time, but after some hours of staying the spray sticks those "ways" again.

So you should wait for starting problem and open your airbox. If the engine starts much better without filter, think about cleaning or replacing it. And the best way to fill it is using gas/oil mixture 50/50, not any kind of sprays. I like to have shelves of spray cans at my garage with different useful stuff, but air filter spray is the most useless. Next is "copper grease" in spray because it contains only traces of copper and grease

All the best
Addicted
2013 GTS 300ie
Joined: 14 Feb 2013
Posts: 580
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:14 am quote
jvrides wrote:
Cheshire wrote:
First step is to test the battery. I've had batteries act like that as a precursor that they finally stop holding a charge.
The first day this happened, I trickle charged it overnight, and it did it the next morning as well. Then it runs fine for the rest of the day. The battery is from 2014
That sounds like a battery at the end of its life, especially if it's that old.
Molto Verboso
Kymco AK550
Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 1138
Location: UK
Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:50 am quote
The battery is good enough to turn the engine over and the headlight doesn't completely go out so not primarily a battery issue. The engine fires and tries to start so not an ignition issue. Therefore given cold conditions it is not getting enough fuel for the low temperature. Is it carburettor or fuel injection? My guess is carburettor and a cold start device which is not working properly.
Member
Vespa GTS 300 2013
Joined: 24 Dec 2019
Posts: 17
Location: Los Angeles
Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:25 am quote
roadster wrote:
The battery is good enough to turn the engine over and the headlight doesn't completely go out so not primarily a battery issue. The engine fires and tries to start so not an ignition issue. Therefore given cold conditions it is not getting enough fuel for the low temperature. Is it carburettor or fuel injection? My guess is carburettor and a cold start device which is not working properly.
Iím not great with technical stuff. But this is the engine: QUASAR engine with electronic injection.
Hooked
2015 Vespa GTS300 Super
Joined: 26 Sep 2017
Posts: 303
Location: Connecticut
Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:55 am quote
Iím no expert, but Iíve had a similar issue in the past. It ended up being the ECU/throttle body - but it took a while to diagnose. If you are DIY inclined and have tools, Iíd start with the easy stuff that people have mentioned (battery, air filter) and go from there. If fixing stuff isnít your thing, bring it to a Vespa expert/dealer. In Southern CA youíll have no difficulty finding one. It will cost you (Iíd say at least $100 for just an hour of labor, likely more, especially if you need parts), but youíll get the problem solved.
Ossessionato
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 4255
Location: Tega Cay, SC
Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:34 am quote
All this wheel spinning......the cold nor the time sitting should effect the starting process if the engine is in good nick. That battery is fine. So, need info: How many miles are on it, when is the last time the valves were adjusted? What kind (octane) of gas are you using? When is the last time you looked at the spark plug? Waiting for the Seafoam recommendations to come along........
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2380
Location: Starfleet Command Engineering, Southern UK HQ,
Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:13 am quote
Ok, so as has been said, it's definitely not the battery. The headlight should dim down when you push the starter to direct more current to the starter motor and it's doing that.

The issue here is most likely your throttle position sensor. It's slightly off in the cold weather. As the injection and throttle body wears over time, this can happen, and even new bikes can come from the factory with this issue. This cannot be adjusted manually. It's not uncommon. Mine used to do this too in really cold weather. However, going from memory there is an update from your dealer that may fix this issue. It did mine. It tells the ecu where the TPS is when cold, kinda resets.

To check it's a TPS issue you can slightly open the throttle as you crank the motor and see if it's starts up straight away. It should if the TPS is slightly off it's cold start position. Don't open the throttle more than just a smidgen (very small amount). Best to start cranking the engine with the throttle closed and then just open it the slightest amount and she should fire up straight away.

Have you found in the warmer weather the bike starts just fine with the throttle closed?

PS. the one other thing you can do is reset the ECU by disconnecting the battery for at least 30 minutes. This may reset the TPS positon by defaulting the ecu settings. Then reconnect the battery with the key in the ignition in the off position. Do not attempt to start the bike straight away. Leave it for at least 5 mins after reconnecting the battery with the key in the ignition at the off position (steering NOT locked). MAKE SURE THE THROTTLE IS FULLY CLOSED DURING THE BATTERY RECONNECTION PROCEDURE AND DO NOT TOUCH IT. This time keep the throttle closed during the start up procedure. It may start ok. If it does, then the issue is fixed. If not you may need that update or other dealer attention.
Hooked
50cc Beo, BigBeo
Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 158
Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:24 am quote
Stromrider, are you saying that on MIU TPS can be resetted by disconnecting the battery? I wonder...
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 37879
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:32 am quote
That's how my GTS300 would act up. Fine all day once first started, but coughed and spluttered after being left for 12 hrs or so. Couldn't find the problem (not too fussed as it always eventually started) but it gradually got worse and worse.

Ended up being a cracked head, allowing coolant into the intake port...
GTS300, coolant in exhaust, tried new head gasket. (solved)

However, that seems unlikely - far more likely is a failing battery that doesn't like cool conditions, perhaps with a shorted cell. Like this, it won't have enough voltage to reliably get the ignition to work, but will once it's warmed up it'll be fine all day. I've had a few of those in my time!

Last edited by jimc on Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:35 am; edited 1 time in total
Member
Vespa GTS 300 2013
Joined: 24 Dec 2019
Posts: 17
Location: Los Angeles
Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:34 am quote
Tierney wrote:
All this wheel spinning......the cold nor the time sitting should effect the starting process if the engine is in good nick. That battery is fine. So, need info: How many miles are on it, when is the last time the valves were adjusted? What kind (octane) of gas are you using? When is the last time you looked at the spark plug? Waiting for the Seafoam recommendations to come along........
29,000 miles. Last service was at 27k and have never missed a Vespa recommended service, follow the book on that. Work done at Vespa Dealership
Addicted
2013 GTS 300ie
Joined: 14 Feb 2013
Posts: 580
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:22 am quote
A battery tender isn't testing the battery. If the battery is on its last leg, that effectively gooses it for one more start. Kinda like jump-starting when the battery is low but not completely dead-dead.

Testing needs a meter.
Member
Vespa GTS 300 2013
Joined: 24 Dec 2019
Posts: 17
Location: Los Angeles
Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:56 pm quote
Cheshire wrote:
A battery tender isn't testing the battery. If the battery is on its last leg, that effectively gooses it for one more start. Kinda like jump-starting when the battery is low but not completely dead-dead.

Testing needs a meter.
Iím assuming once it starts itís giving it that quick recharge for the rest of the day that makes it turn over like normal? But that first turn on is hard because the battery is dying? I think thatís what Iím understanding from your post.
Molto Verboso
Kymco AK550
Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 1138
Location: UK
Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:06 am quote
If it is fuel injected then it should start best with absolutely no throttle. In your video it fires put does not pick up immediately so you may be able to experiment by opening the throttle in very small increments to see if that makes it better or worse. There are many causes for this as suggested already but routine service items should be the first things checked, particularly valve clearances, spark plug and HT lead condition, air filter condition. If you are certain that all these are OK then the idle air valve may be sticking and dirty but opening the throttle in very small increments would normally overcome this.
Addicted
2013 GTS 300ie
Joined: 14 Feb 2013
Posts: 580
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:35 am quote
jvrides wrote:
Cheshire wrote:
A battery tender isn't testing the battery. If the battery is on its last leg, that effectively gooses it for one more start. Kinda like jump-starting when the battery is low but not completely dead-dead.

Testing needs a meter.
Iím assuming once it starts itís giving it that quick recharge for the rest of the day that makes it turn over like normal? But that first turn on is hard because the battery is dying? I think thatís what Iím understanding from your post.
Yes. Once the engine turns over, the engine running works to maintain the battery, but batteries are considered consumables just like tires. Eventually, they stop holding a charge. The average lifespan of a motorcycle/scooter battery that's been maintained is 3-5 years. I went to the battery as a likely culprit because what you're describing is exactly what I experienced when my battery was on its way out.

As an exaggerated example, I give you my riding mower last summer:
I used it once or twice a week during the warm season. The battery was obviously not holding a charge anymore, but I always forgot until the weekend when the store was closed. If I put it on the battery tender in the morning for 30 minutes, it was fine for the rest of the day. I could turn it off for 10 minutes while I emptied the grass bag and it would crank right back up...but if it sat for a day or two, I'd have to use the battery tender again. I used this trick to forestall replacing the battery for something like 4 months until the battery finally gave up the ghost. Once I replaced it, it was back to performing like new.

I'd have to look up HOW to test a battery, but I know it's something about checking the amps using a meter or...something. I don't do it enough to remember without googling it. When I worked in a MC shop for a summer years ago, it was all in a plug-in device. If the sitting charge was less than X, the battery needed to be replaced. A trickle charger could briefly push it over the threshold for a day, but the battery couldn't hold that charge anymore, so it would drain off in a matter of hours or days instead of weeks or months.
Addicted
2013 GTS 300ie
Joined: 14 Feb 2013
Posts: 580
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:40 am quote
These days, unless I'm prepared to walk back home (like with a lawnmower), I replace a suspect battery once the early signs show up. I learned my lesson a couple of motorcycles ago when the battery finally crapped out leaving a friend's house in the middle of nowhere at 2am. That was a LONG night for me!
Addicted
2014 GTS 300ie
Joined: 20 Jun 2014
Posts: 707
Location: Belgium
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:34 am quote
Could be a list of things. Battery, measure voltage drop during start, dirty air filter, tube between air filter box and throttle body not air tight, filter box leaking air, bad spark plug, problem HV coil (probably not when running fine), problem fuel pressure to injector, injector or its contacts (wiggle it while running to see if the engine stutters), start problem only when vespa OR on mid stand OR on wheels = check&wiggle spark plug head and HV cable. leaking injector causing too much fuel before start, ECU sees wrong values or doesn't read them (sensors rev, pre-ignition, temp, lambda... or their wiring) Throttle position adjustment or issue with its sensor. I'm sure I forget more causes. Does engine warning light go on, stays on? A difficult start can have so many different causes, and it's often one silly thiny thing, but difficult to find.
Member
Vespa GTS 300 2013
Joined: 24 Dec 2019
Posts: 17
Location: Los Angeles
Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:00 pm quote
FlandersWasp wrote:
Could be a list of things. Battery, measure voltage drop during start, dirty air filter, tube between air filter box and throttle body not air tight, filter box leaking air, bad spark plug, problem HV coil (probably not when running fine), problem fuel pressure to injector, injector or its contacts (wiggle it while running to see if the engine stutters), start problem only when vespa OR on mid stand OR on wheels = check&wiggle spark plug head and HV cable. leaking injector causing too much fuel before start, ECU sees wrong values or doesn't read them (sensors rev, pre-ignition, temp, lambda... or their wiring) Throttle position adjustment or issue with its sensor. I'm sure I forget more causes. Does engine warning light go on, stays on? A difficult start can have so many different causes, and it's often one silly thiny thing, but difficult to find.
No engine light, everything looks normal on the maintenance lights. The scooter rides great, just that first start after sitting for a few hours. I'm going to check the battery this week. The battery is the stock batter (2013 vespa). So it's pushing 6-7 years use.
Enthusiast
2009 GTS 250 "Noa"
Joined: 13 Oct 2019
Posts: 86
Location: Canada
Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:24 pm quote
The headlight is dim during the first few seconds of starting which I believe is because of a weak battery.

With a voltmeter check the resting battery voltage 24 hours after a ride. Should be 12.8v or higher.

Turn the ignition to run and with the headlight and taillight on but fuel pump stopped. Should be 12.0v or higher.

With the starter engaged and the engine trying to start. Should be 9.6v or higher.

Find a place you can take the battery for a free load test. This is easiest and cheapest thing to check first.
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 37879
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:47 am quote
S.Ro wrote:
With a voltmeter check the resting battery voltage 24 hours after a ride. Should be 12.6v or higher.
Fixed that for you...
Addicted
2013 GTS 300ie
Joined: 14 Feb 2013
Posts: 580
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:06 pm quote
How's it going...did you get it sorted out? Here's hoping you got it resolved.
Member
Vespa GTS 300 2013
Joined: 24 Dec 2019
Posts: 17
Location: Los Angeles
Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:59 am quote
Cheshire wrote:
How's it going...did you get it sorted out? Here's hoping you got it resolved.
Ok got the battery fixed. Has the Vespa dealer look into it, they couldnít find the cause without me leaving it over night for them to check on a cold start (I wasnít able to leave it that night). They replaced a bad spark plug. It starts better but still that first start of the day itís a little clunky.

I had most of the coolant lines changed this year, I think all of them but 1 or 2. There is still a slight coolant leak (like a few drops a day). I had that 2013 model coolant rust problem.

Once it starts up, the Vespa rides normal, sounds normal, and starts up normal the rest of the day.
Scooting the Ozarks is a scooter rally held in Eureka Springs, Arkansas offering riders scenic twisty rides, poker run, and more.   vespa scooterwest scooter west Motorsport Scooters   Cool Ass scooter seat cover
Post Reply    Forum -> General Discussion
[ Time: 0.1735s ][ Queries: 25 (0.0527s) ][ Debug on ]