1964 Vespa 90 small frame
Post Reply    Forum -> Not-So-Modern 12Next
Author Message
Member
Small frame 90
Joined: 18 Jan 2020
Posts: 24
Location: Indiana
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:11 pm quote
I have been tearing the engine down on this 64 v90 for a couple of days now and I am not sure why the cruciform only has two things on it but others have four, this is a three speed with neutral and just by switching the gears with my hand the cruciform (I think thatís what it is) wonít go into the other gears and itís like it is jammed. Also I can find the neutral on it. Thank you in advance

7F5871DE-DB7A-45EC-987E-00EE326E3773.jpeg

Member
Small frame 90
Joined: 18 Jan 2020
Posts: 24
Location: Indiana
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:12 pm quote
Here is a picture before I took the gears off

A155D938-A6D6-4A90-83C7-828B70A8613E.jpeg

Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86,95,96 Elite 80s, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3409
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:02 pm quote
Wow! I've never seen one of those. Must be a real early production model before they changed to the 4 pronged shift cross. I'd loosen the bolt on the top of the cases that holds the stirrup down and then see if you can shift easier. If no, there might be a heavier spring installed in the center. Youíve got to pull the axle anyways to get the shift cross out so you might as well keep diving down the rabbit hole and see what youíve got.

Remember to cover the axle end with a zip loc bag or something for when the BBís fly out.
Addicted
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 1004
Location: Racing Capital of the World
Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:54 am quote
ChillyWilly wrote:
I have been tearing the engine down on this 64 v90 for a couple of days now and I am not sure why the cruciform only has two things on it but others have four, this is a three speed with neutral and just by switching the gears with my hand the cruciform (I think thatís what it is) wonít go into the other gears and itís like it is jammed. Also I can find the neutral on it. Thank you in advance
The earlier engines have two legs compared to the later 4 legs. Remove the entire output shaft to service the cruciform.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'80 P200E, '76 Primavera 125 ET3. '59 Vespa 150
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 6897
Location: GT, Texas
Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:17 am quote
Do they still call it a ďcruciformĒ when itís not in the form of a cross?
Addicted
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 1004
Location: Racing Capital of the World
Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:27 am quote
astromags wrote:
Do they still call it a ďcruciformĒ when itís not in the form of a cross?
probably not. probably best to call it a shift leg or gear selector.
Member
Small frame 90
Joined: 18 Jan 2020
Posts: 24
Location: Indiana
Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:28 pm quote
I went ahead and put the big gear back on but it is hitting the kick starter gear now for some reason.

190BC7C6-357F-43D2-A687-4CB3A7661302.jpeg

Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86,95,96 Elite 80s, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3409
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:09 pm quote
It looks like the kickstart quadrant isnít resting on the buffer. Reset that and mesh it with the kickstart cog and then try the fit.
Member
Small frame 90
Joined: 18 Jan 2020
Posts: 24
Location: Indiana
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:17 pm quote
It was like that when I took the engine apart. I donít know how to even remove the kick starter assembly.
Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86,95,96 Elite 80s, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3409
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:30 pm quote
Pull the kickstart lever and it will turn the quadrant. When it springs back, it will rest on a black rubber buffer. Itís installed in the case at the bottom of the picture you posted. Itís in a little groove. Push it all the way so the quadrant can rest on it. Then try your gear check.
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4293
Location: San Diego, CA
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:56 pm quote
hard to say for sure from the pic but that kickstart gear (not the quadrant) looks like it has seen better days.
Member
Small frame 90
Joined: 18 Jan 2020
Posts: 24
Location: Indiana
Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:56 pm quote
Thank you for all of the comments, I am going to try your ideas tomorrow but also, any ideas about the gear selector not going into the gears. Does the motor have to be running for it to go into each gear because each gear can spin however it wants to so is it when you pull the clutch and shit then the gear selector pushes itself into the gear?
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4293
Location: San Diego, CA
Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:28 pm quote
what I like to do is have the axle out, and shift the cruciform (or selector ) through the gears with the stack on. Each gear should select positively, and line up with the cogs on the loose gear. Neutral should not drag on 1st or 2nd gear. if these are OK, and your shim measurement looks good, you will be in good shape. if it is sloppy or doesn't line up well with the cogs, you will have issues. it's much easier to do with the axle / stack in hand in my opinion.
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4293
Location: San Diego, CA
Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:33 pm quote
this is my favorite reference on it, but you will need Google Chrome with the photobucket fix installed to see the pictures properly

http://vespasmallframeforum.proboards.com/thread/10843/gearbox-rebuild
Member
Small frame 90
Joined: 18 Jan 2020
Posts: 24
Location: Indiana
Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:51 am quote
Is the smallest gear 1st and what is a cog. Also when I first got this the piston was seized and I would put it into each gear and the wheel moved freely.
Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86,95,96 Elite 80s, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3409
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:22 pm quote
So pull the kickstart lever and hold it up. Get a screwdriver and push the rubber buffer into the motor so when you release the lever, the quadrant rests on the rubber. When this happens, the quadrant should mesh with the cog above it. Wiggle it so that it does.

1.jpeg

Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86,95,96 Elite 80s, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3409
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:34 pm quote
As far as the difficult shifting, it definitely can be hard to shift with your bare hands. The shifting parts consist of the arm poking out of the bottom of the case and then that is mechanically connected to the stirrup and is held at the top by the bolt (I think 14mm).

Anyways, as you pull the arm, it moves the stirrup in and out which pushes/pulls the shift cross in and out. There is a spring with two ball bearings hidden inside that fights against the shift cross. Its not going to be easy but you do want that shifting movement to be firm. If it was loose, itd jump out of gear/ bad shifting/ excess wear on moving parts.

So, try spinning the selector arm and then reach in with your free hand and try to help the stirrup move the shift cross. It should eventually go. Try going back and forth and report back.

2.jpeg

Member
Small frame 90
Joined: 18 Jan 2020
Posts: 24
Location: Indiana
Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:57 pm quote
The Kickstarter gear has a long rubber thing on it so o donít need to use a screwdriver and the gear is like pooped out a little bit but when I push it in it keeps popping out

66FCA12B-52B2-4F64-8A67-E059357466C7.jpeg

Member
Small frame 90
Joined: 18 Jan 2020
Posts: 24
Location: Indiana
Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:58 pm quote
The gap

37661DAB-2DE3-485C-9DDB-1B7CFB543522.jpeg

Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86,95,96 Elite 80s, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3409
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:08 pm quote
Ok it looked like the buffer wasnt underneath the quadrant. Those should be replaced when it comes time for the rebuild.

As far as the gap between the quadrant and the engine cases thats a non issue. The other half of the engine case pushes that tight.

Until then, did you try playing with the shifting components?
Member
Small frame 90
Joined: 18 Jan 2020
Posts: 24
Location: Indiana
Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:28 pm quote
I have not tried yet but I still some know how to take that shaft out
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4293
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:53 pm quote
first is the biggest loose gear

if you've already got your brakes off and backing plate off, you can drive that axle through the bearing with a rubber / plastic mallet from the brake side. usually is good practice to put a nut on the end of the threads to protect them as well.
Member
Small frame 90
Joined: 18 Jan 2020
Posts: 24
Location: Indiana
Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:58 pm quote
I will try that right now but also when the gear selector is all of the way back it is hitting the clutch gear

E5CCBED2-E74F-49AD-8349-649FF9147DD7.jpeg

Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4293
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:05 pm quote
yeah get that clutch out of there
Member
Small frame 90
Joined: 18 Jan 2020
Posts: 24
Location: Indiana
Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:07 pm quote
What about the little arm that moves the gear selector
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4293
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:13 pm quote
if I remember correctly, you want that sucker in 4th gear position (toward the fly side) so that as you drive out the axle it just falls free. There's a tip in that Paxton book on this operation, but I don't have it handy. If you don't have the Paxton "How to Restore Smallframe Vespas" book, I really recommend it. It's all the way forward or all the way back, but those little blocks will swivel to come free.
Hooked
Ď64 V90 survivor, Ď75 V90 graffiti
Joined: 30 May 2018
Posts: 198
Location: Madison WI
Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:56 pm quote
The 64 smalldoor has a 2 prong selector and is a 3 speed. Has a 56mm case mouth rather than the 61 mm opening on 66 and later models and a bushing rather than a needle bearing in the rod small end.

570A797C-F2DE-4A2E-87D3-C85BCDB38184.jpeg
Old selector above. New one below.
Out of my 64

D4CAAC0C-635A-4712-926E-8F553F15F840.jpeg

Member
Small frame 90
Joined: 18 Jan 2020
Posts: 24
Location: Indiana
Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:57 pm quote
Finally I got it out, I learned a lot from a German Vespa video. Do you all think that the gear selector is useable or just get a new one. Could I ground the sides down possibly.

9F861C70-77A4-4538-9D1B-A689437409A4.jpeg

Member
Small frame 90
Joined: 18 Jan 2020
Posts: 24
Location: Indiana
Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:58 pm quote
Close up pic of gear selector

2CDDB8A7-FE7D-4EFC-88DB-218E839B4A43.jpeg

Member
Small frame 90
Joined: 18 Jan 2020
Posts: 24
Location: Indiana
Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:16 pm quote
When cleaning the area for the crank, is it okay to use some sand paper and a wire wheel?
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4293
Location: San Diego, CA
Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:42 pm quote
That selector is toast, get a new one
Hooked
58 VB1T, 68 SS180, 81 100 Sport
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 280
Location: Long Beach, CA
Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:37 am quote
sdjohn wrote:
That selector is toast, get a new one
Seconded
Member
Small frame 90
Joined: 18 Jan 2020
Posts: 24
Location: Indiana
Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:22 am quote
I ordered one and it did not come with the ball bearings or spring. I thought that mine looked alright
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4293
Location: San Diego, CA
Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:50 pm quote
Get a new spring, popping out of gear after you have rebuilt your engine is a real pisser.
Member
Small frame 90
Joined: 18 Jan 2020
Posts: 24
Location: Indiana
Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:13 pm quote
Where would I buy one
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4293
Location: San Diego, CA
Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:53 pm quote
Wherever you can get the selector, I imagine. Sip sells them for sure. Get the balls too. And while you are at it, the little block tools to install are worth it.
Member
Small frame 90
Joined: 18 Jan 2020
Posts: 24
Location: Indiana
Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:47 pm quote
It came in after one day and it came with the spring and ball bearings

593914DF-3607-494E-AAA0-A9699E850C73.jpeg

Member
Small frame 90
Joined: 18 Jan 2020
Posts: 24
Location: Indiana
Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:27 am quote
Is there a way to put this gear selector on? Or at least an easy method

16296D6F-E3C6-4D81-AD8C-42F62FFDE8F2.jpeg

Enthusiast
Rally 180, TS 125, PX 150 and a lot of smallies
Joined: 19 Oct 2013
Posts: 86
Location: Paso
Member
Small frame 90
Joined: 18 Jan 2020
Posts: 24
Location: Indiana
Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:08 am quote
I tried that method and it did not work. The new spring that I got with the cruciform is longer and stronger than the old one

312A690E-2137-45D0-83DD-AE145DF79BD5.jpeg

Team Scooter Trash for Petfinder Foundation   vespa scooterwest scooter west Motorsport Scooters   AF1 Racing Vespa Austin
Post Reply    Forum -> Not-So-Modern 12Next
[ Time: 0.3048s ][ Queries: 27 (0.0275s) ][ Debug on ]