ĎNother project
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Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4286
Location: San Diego, CA
Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:37 pm quote
Ultrasonic bath??
Hooked
58 VB1T, 68 SS180, 81 100 Sport
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 278
Location: Long Beach, CA
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:33 pm quote
Gravelrash2004 wrote:
oopsclunkthud wrote:
I'd try a soak in evaporust or oxalic acid before heat and force. rust takes more room and if it can be dissolved out it will come apart much easier.
DONT PUT EVAPORUST NEAR aluminum..IT ROTS IT
I'm curious about this opinion, because on the Evaporust website FAQ it clearly says it will not damage aluminum.

I've used it safely on ferrous metals, hardware, body panels, iron cylinders, old tools; but have yet to soak a part that also has aluminum. I do have a headset with stuck rusty tubes waiting for a soak...

evaporust faq.jpg

bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5041
Location: So Cal
Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:06 pm quote
rowdyc wrote:
Maybe some CRC Freeze Off will loosen it up to hit with a hammer and chisel with something soft on the end to not damage the area being hit???
https://youtu.be/b0BaowQvL6c
Had high hopes for Freeze Off as CRC generally makes good products, but the tubes just laughed at it. Might try again ... this time heat the whole headset in the barbecue then give the tubes an icy blast, as Birdsnest suggests.

One problem is thereís no place to leverage or hit them from inside the headset, as the tubes sit flush. See pic.

Voodooís slide hammer technique has promise, itís the setup that isnít so simple.

1F05B8E3-97C3-4775-BFF5-D35B6A709CA9.jpeg

Hooked
79p200e 66smallstate 85pk50xl 84p125ets 63GL150
Joined: 24 Nov 2016
Posts: 123
Location: Flatness, Tx
Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:01 pm quote
different coefficient of expansion
I vote oven set to ~275degrees F and bake for about 10 minutes. I prefer the oven over barbecue because the heat is even and I can control the temperature. Anything past 450 degrees F (if I remember right) and the aluminum starts to weaken. Coefficient of expansion is higher for aluminum than steel so the headset should expand more than the tubes giving you those precious microns of space to hopefully work them free. I have used this technique with stuck bearings in cases and they practically drop out. A lot of oil will burn off and make a good stink so clean as much oil away as possible and open the windows. Make sure to use gloves or rags or mitts and pull them out and see if they budge.

After all these shenanigans and a somewhat distressed wife, I appease the better half by then putting the oven into self-clean mode and I clean the oven.

Hope you get this sorted.
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4286
Location: San Diego, CA
Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:07 pm quote
I do have access to an ultrasonic socal if you want me to soak it, but I think you are keen to do this sooner rather than later. I just figured there's no harm in letting some sonic waves attack the corrosion...
bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5041
Location: So Cal
Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:46 pm quote
poidog: Thatís pretty much the plan except thereís no way in hell itís going in the oven. I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed but I know SoCalWifeís limits. Even the BBQ is risking it. If she finds out it a scooter part came anywhere near a food preparation surface it could be curtains for this and future projects. I can control the heat on the BBQ. It has a thermometer and I also have one of those laser pointer temp gauges.

sdjohn: Thanks for the offer. Letís see how the grilling goes, maybe keep ultrasonic as an option downstream.
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4286
Location: San Diego, CA
Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:13 pm quote
I did the BBQ thing while everyone else wasn't home
bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5041
Location: So Cal
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:16 pm quote
Success

8935913C-2203-4EE7-BAE0-B9DA0A5D59A2.jpeg

Hooked
1964 GS160, 1966 90ss, 1976 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 08 Sep 2011
Posts: 274

Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:35 pm quote
Which string of curse words did the trick?
Moderator
P200 PX150
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4048
Location: Hustletown, TX
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:45 pm quote
Yep yep. Cocktails all around!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7276
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:51 pm quote
Well done!

Nobody will tell me off if I use the oven for Special Scooter Business, but I'm not crazy about the stink myself. So if it's a nasty looking part, I put it in an oven bag. You can get some pretty big ones. Not entirely stink-proof, but it helps.
Ossessionato
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 4258
Location: Tega Cay, SC
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:57 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Success
So what did the trick?
Addicted
GL, PK, PE200 with hack, Sears Rust Badge
Joined: 24 Apr 2012
Posts: 789
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:13 pm quote
Congratulations!!! Should be happy enough to dance.

Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4286
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:27 pm quote
You canít leave us hanging, howíd it happen??
Hooked
79p200e 66smallstate 85pk50xl 84p125ets 63GL150
Joined: 24 Nov 2016
Posts: 123
Location: Flatness, Tx
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:49 pm quote
Good on Ya! Congrats!!
bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5041
Location: So Cal
Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:20 am quote
Ha, yeah quite the adventure.

First, the BBQ was a fail. 200į for 10 minutes did nothing. Gave it 400į for another 10 minutes. Also nothing.

It occurred to me that heating the whole headset, from the outside in like a rump roast, was not the answer. The alloy only expands so far and then stops expanding.

I figured heat needed to be applied DIRECTLY TO THE STEEL TUBES. Lots of heat. Cherry red heat. I figured they could take it. That would cause the steel to expand and break the rust bond from the inside out.

So I focused the flame inside the tubes, thru the cutouts, and right where they pass through the headset. Used a piece of scrap metal as a heat shield to keep the other parts of the headset from cooking.

Clamped a big nut to the end of the tube with some vice grips to provide something to pound on. See pic.

Sure enough... couple taps with the hammer... big smile.

Oh and and lubricants and soaking were useless until the tubes start to move. The place where they were stuck was rusty and completely bone dry. Nothing penetrated that space.

861440D1-D490-4109-B595-E8FACC2FB9B7.jpeg

Hooked
58 VB1T, 68 SS180, 81 100 Sport
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 278
Location: Long Beach, CA
Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:54 am quote
Nice work! Bring the heat!
bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5041
Location: So Cal
Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:10 pm quote
Getting down to the little stuff.

Anyone want to guess where these needle bearings are from?

(Hint, not cush spindle.)

98E68461-B85E-4DC1-A44C-D1F2539DFF07.jpeg



Last edited by SoCalGuy on Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4286
Location: San Diego, CA
Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:58 pm quote
Fork?
bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5041
Location: So Cal
Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:31 pm quote
Warm ...
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:49 pm quote
drive shaft bearing? the one in the shifter box..
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4286
Location: San Diego, CA
Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:52 pm quote
Front suspension in the fork
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125 + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7606
Location: seattle/athens
Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:13 pm quote
If you didn't pull it out of your rear end, maybe your front?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7276
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:33 pm quote
V oodoo wrote:
If you didn't pull it out of your rear end, maybe your front?
I think that's what the Bishop said to the Barmaid?
bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5041
Location: So Cal
Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:01 pm quote
Lower front spring mount.

Going to be fun getting all 36 of them back in there.

E0392CAD-F8EB-4DB6-834A-BCDDD60F798F.jpeg

Ossessionato
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 4258
Location: Tega Cay, SC
Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:33 am quote
Stick 'em with grease, just like the cush end. Meanwhile, you have more nerve than me. I just pumped it full of grease and moved on....
bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5041
Location: So Cal
Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:26 am quote
That was probably the smarter move, but donít think Sprints have the bearings (my Supers donít). Was surprised to see them spill out.

Maybe they give the GL an extra silky smooth ride. Thatís what Iím hoping anyway.
Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1376

Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:06 am quote
Yep some nice sticky grease , should test your patience.
Addicted
GL, PK, PE200 with hack, Sears Rust Badge
Joined: 24 Apr 2012
Posts: 789
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:23 am quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
That was probably the smarter move, but donít think Sprints have the bearings (my Supers donít). Was surprised to see them spill out.

Maybe they give the GL an extra silky smooth ride. Thatís what Iím hoping anyway.
That front end is the same as the last GS150. It's an upgrade.
bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5041
Location: So Cal
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:37 pm quote
57 year-old Italian-made Michelin. Still holds air! Gonna hang it on the garage wall as a memento of the scootís previous life.

CA34A1E7-24A0-4D1D-94E8-01AE88719D15.jpeg

Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 871
Location: california
Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:25 pm quote
Just checking in.
Barmaids and rear ends.
Had to double check what site I was on.
57 year old Michelins to boot.
That rubber is a trophy - not something you ride - so to speak.
Will look good on the garage wall.
Kinda lookin forward to seeing the body work done.
Still totally intimidating to me.
-CM
Hooked
74 v90/100 smallframe, 1974 primavera 125 (getting there), 80 P200E,
Joined: 18 Jul 2008
Posts: 256
Location: San Diego
Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:25 pm quote
Looking good so far SoCal. Gonna have your hands full with those needle bearings.
Ossessionato
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 4258
Location: Tega Cay, SC
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:01 am quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
57 year-old Italian-made Michelin. Still holds air! Gonna hang it on the garage wall as a memento of the scootís previous life.
Ha! I've got one of it's 54 year old brothers right here. The other rims were in such horrible shape that I ruined the tires separating them. I'm going to clean it up a little and hang it on the garage wall.

DSC00430.JPG

DSC00431.JPG

DSC00432.JPG

bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5041
Location: So Cal
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:28 am quote
Fabricato en Italia. Love it.

Thought Iíd give the frame a little closer look before getting it stripped.

Pic below is worst of the rust.

I am in possession of a welder but know next to nothing about welding. Willing to learn.

What say ye?

1013A7E3-CB48-4626-A629-0FCC3DFA82E1.jpeg

bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5041
Location: So Cal
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:33 am quote
Another shot:

2E2772C8-ED59-438A-84B9-BF10747A209E.jpeg

bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5041
Location: So Cal
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:34 am quote
And some perspective:

BE44D0CD-EA0A-447A-B1A8-FABE7A1D7875.jpeg

Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1376

Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:55 am quote
Anybody can learn to weld, you can do it.
bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5041
Location: So Cal
Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:04 pm quote
Thanks for the vote of confidence Lynn, lol, Iím certainly willing to give it a go.

What Iím wondering is how you experienced welders out there go about attacking this kind of rot.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1418
Location: Florence, OR
Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:24 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
What Iím wondering is how you experienced welders out there go about attacking this kind of rot.
I'm curious also! Is it "cut out the section and weld a clean chunk in?", "grind it down, and fill it in, then grind smooth?"

I'll be curious to see what the experts have to say - WhoDat?
Hooked
58 VB1T, 68 SS180, 81 100 Sport
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 278
Location: Long Beach, CA
Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:38 pm quote
I am no expert, just a novice hobbyist, but I have done my fair share of welding like this. My instinct would be to cut it out, weld in patch of new metal. Strip away the rust, blast it or grind it away so you can really see what you are working with and how much good metal is still there. Thats a structural area near the engine mount, so you'd want to be sure its strong. Fill welding can cause alot of heat buildup and is time consuming, as well as grinding away all the beads to then have to go back and fill all the pin holes you missed. Strip it, Cut it, patch it and your good to go!
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