[NSR] Corona Virus.
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:57 am quote
Fudmucker wrote:
Harbinger wrote:
Fudmucker wrote:
There are plenty of examples of trailers that transport frozen products.
I can't see the problem...?
Those truck do not get anywhere near the cold temperatures required for the vaccine. THAT is the problem.

The fact that a few people here do not see a problem is a sign of privilege as you know you will be able to get it. I'm not going all left wing crazy here but you have to see the logistical nightmare of getting the vaccine to rural and poor areas? To reach herd immunity via a vaccine it has to be widely distributed otherwise it will keep coming back. We have to do our best to eradicate it as AFAIK the vaccines do not provide lifetime immunity.
Liquid Oxygen and Nitrogen are below minus 300F.
They get transported around very well.
Is that not cold enough for vaccines...?
Probably but they are not listed as a transport option yet. Of the roughly 59 million people in South Africa how many do not live in a large city?

This is my understanding of the Pfizer solution.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54889084
Molto Verboso
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Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:10 am quote
Harbinger wrote:
Probably but they are not listed as a transport option yet. Of the roughly 59 million people in South Africa how many do not live in a large city?
Around 63% are urbanised.
This is growing every year.
While the remaining 37% are listed as 'rural', the distances to travel to a primary health Clinic are not that great, other than in the very sparsely populated Northern Cape province.



ZAurbanPop.png

Hooked
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Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:59 am quote
Nice pics Fudmucker. Here's one from the Economist lately that caught my eye:

No surprises which are the countries where policy makers decided they know better than highly- educated scientists and medics (and thus got outsmarted by a virus) ...

20201107_WOC147_0.png

Molto Verboso
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Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:53 pm quote
Wear a mask, wash your hands, social distance.

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Addicted
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Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:04 pm quote
huh
Wait, there's a coronavirus?

w.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:08 pm quote
Sledge wrote:
Wear a mask, wash your hands, social distance.
So, if you're someone who likes getting peed upon, you wouldn't see the benefit of wearing a mask?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:21 pm quote
znomit wrote:
Sledge wrote:
Wear a mask, wash your hands, social distance.
So, if you're someone who likes getting peed upon, you wouldn't see the benefit of wearing a mask?
I think, to be fair, you don't have to *like* being peed upon for there to be tapes of it happening.

But yeah, wear the mask....
Molto Verboso
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Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:03 pm quote
I am sad to read that the US has passed the 250k mark in COVID-19 associated deaths. Early on I had projected, based on European trends, that it would kill 200-300k. I am truly sorry that I am being proven right.

South Africa's total COVID death toll so far is around a single day's new cases in the US. Yesterday our death toll / 1M was just into three figures, whereas the US one is four figures - twenty times our rate. Our population is about one fifth of the USA.

I am off to a Vespa club Friday breakfast.
No mask, no entry venue and everyone complies except when they are eating or drinking.
I think there is a lesson there.
Ossessionato
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Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:18 pm quote
Harbinger wrote:
Attila wrote:
But what does it take to make a refrigerated container to put in a maxi camper?
Really? That's one hell of a camper .

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-vaccines-distribut/why-pfizers-ultra-cold-covid-19-vaccine-will-not-be-at-the-local-pharmacy-any-time-soon-idUSKBN27P2VI

The main issue is that the vaccine, which is based on a novel technology that uses synthetic mRNA to activate the immune system against the virus, needs to be kept at minus 70 degrees Celsius (-94 F) or below.
This is indeed a bit of pain... - 70C for long term (~6 months max?) storage and ~5 days in normal freezers.

For a vaccine that is desired to be given masses of people within a short time frame this temp requirement definitely does not help the logistics.

In a normal, even large hospital - 70C is a rare requirement. Plenty of normal freezers, especially if there are larger lab facilities included, but that 5 days is not an easy target for the whole logistics chain from the deep freeze to the injection needle of each individual.
Moderaptor
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:29 am quote
The Oxford vaccine, when it's ready to be deployed, can be kept in domestic refrigerators. I suspect the Pfizer and Moderna ones will only be deployed in richer economies, and the Oxford one will be the go-to for the rest.
Ossessionato
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:40 am quote
It is enough for me that it works ... and quickly, that is, that it arrives as soon as possible.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:43 am quote
Attila wrote:
It is enough for me that it works ... and quickly, that is, that it arrives as soon as possible.
I hear Russia has one if you're willing to travel.
Ossessionato
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:50 am quote
Harbinger wrote:
Attila wrote:
It is enough for me that it works ... and quickly, that is, that it arrives as soon as possible.
I hear Russia has one if you're willing to travel.
But the certifications are not known ...
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:59 am quote
Attila wrote:
Harbinger wrote:
Attila wrote:
It is enough for me that it works ... and quickly, that is, that it arrives as soon as possible.
I hear Russia has one if you're willing to travel.
But the certifications are not known ...
Hey, if it's good enough for Putin...

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Ossessionato
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:15 am quote
I would like to answer, but on MV there are Russian users, then it risks becoming a political issue.
I respect the recommendations of Froggie, Jim and the greasy.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:18 am quote
Attila wrote:
I would like to answer, but on MV there are Russian users, then it risks becoming a political issue.
I respect the recommendations of Froggie, Jim and the greasy.
We have Russian users? It's also just satire sometimes things can be taken too far.

I'm not even even sure we have Russian users on the Ural forum...
Ossessionato
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:18 pm quote
Are you sure?
Moderaptor
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:22 pm quote
We have several Russians on MV, some are regular contributors.
Ossessionato
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:56 pm quote
I ain't no moderaptor dear Harb, but I would say you're a bit too close to get political above.. . don't mess around with our dear covid ventilation channel
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:12 pm quote
jimc wrote:
We have several Russians on MV, some are regular contributors.
Ok, I really do apologize to any Russians that may find that offensive. In the meantime we're going back to a hard lockdown here .

I'm curious though and will look to see if any Russians post, I've never noticed and more or less know the major cities.
Molto Verboso
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:40 pm quote
Our state went into lock down because someone had lied to contact tracers that they had got the virus by purchasing a pizza.
Turns out he/she worked at a medi-hotel.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-20/sa-coronavirus-hard-lockdown-to-end-early/12903834

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Ossessionato
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:19 pm quote
Sledge wrote:
Our state went into lock down because someone had lied to contact tracers that they had got the virus by purchasing a pizza.
Turns out he/she worked at a medi-hotel.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-20/sa-coronavirus-hard-lockdown-to-end-early/12903834
You can check out any time you like but you can never leave.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:49 pm quote
Harbinger wrote:
jimc wrote:
We have several Russians on MV, some are regular contributors.
Ok, I really do apologize to any Russians that may find that offensive. In the meantime we're going back to a hard lockdown here .

I'm curious though and will look to see if any Russians post, I've never noticed and more or less know the major cities.
Jah is pretty regular, but hangs on the MP3 side a lot. ....
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:57 pm quote
Gah!
Here we go again in Wisconsin. We've had lawsuits (won) challenging our governor's stay at home orders, as well as mask mandates. Apparently trying to save lives is governmental overreach.

Tonight I read that there's a lawsuit to prevent one of our cities from taking their schools virtual while the virus rages around the state like a California wildfire.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:14 pm quote
fledermaus wrote:
Harbinger wrote:
jimc wrote:
We have several Russians on MV, some are regular contributors.
Ok, I really do apologize to any Russians that may find that offensive. In the meantime we're going back to a hard lockdown here .

I'm curious though and will look to see if any Russians post, I've never noticed and more or less know the major cities.
Jah is pretty regular, but hangs on the MP3 side a lot. ....
Well that's one. I'm not kidding I'd love to know how many Russians we have as that is pretty cool. I know a number of born and raised Russians that are expats in Canada and have heard their views on Russia as it is now.
Ossessionato
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:46 pm quote
Reading on various sites ...
(accredited because they are from Italian newspapers and press agencies of proven seriousness) the vaccines in the running for distribution are all in phase three while to be totally safe they must go through six control phases, this because the virus runs very fast and as the time has mutations which, if radical, render current vaccines useless.
Population control in large nations is more difficult so you need to vaccinate those who want to do it quickly; yes, because democracy also means the freedom to "not get vaccinated".
Incredible? No ... in fact, the spokesman for the Italian health ministry has imposed a condition ... whoever gets vaccinated will (rightly) be registered for two reasons: there will almost certainly be a recall for a second dose and then because the health personnel will know how act if someone has a fever. I must tell you that in Italy already when we get vaccinated, for any vaccine (including this year's anti-flu), we are registered (three years ago I also did the one against pneumonia). We also have, as a population from birth, a magnetic card and bar code which brings together access to public health and taxation; when you are hospitalized it is sufficient to have it and deliver it to authorized personnel to be registered and from there they go back to all medical data.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:59 am quote
No surprise but it's official that the Sturgis rally led to a Covid-19 outbreak in Minnesota.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/21/us/south-dakota-sturgis-rally-outbreak-minnesota/index.html
Ossessionato
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:13 am quote
Where there is crowding, wearing a mask and washing your hands is not enough, look at those who work in the hospital and put on full suits and helmets and more but some get infected anyway, if a mask and gloves were enough they would not be dressed like astronauts and yet someone he gets sick anyway.
The virus also passes through the eyes that's why visors, do you think that in Sturgis everyone without exception wore a mask and washed their hands? It was enough that even if you had the mask but you had uncovered eyes and whoever you met had no protection you transmitted the infection.
Ossessionato
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:22 am quote
Just read from the news that Germany is now ready with their covid vaccination preparations.

Here's what they planned and is now done to overcome the cold chain challenge vs. mass vaccinations.

A bit of 'internal' joke for those familiar with the airport dilemma there, but it looks like now there is good justification for the new airport as Tegel will be turned into one the vaccination centers...

https://www.thelocal.de/20201023/germany-prepares-for-60-coronavirus-vaccination-centres
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:28 am quote
jimc wrote:
The Oxford vaccine, when it's ready to be deployed, can be kept in domestic refrigerators. I suspect the Pfizer and Moderna ones will only be deployed in richer economies, and the Oxford one will be the go-to for the rest.
Moderna has actually updated their cold storage figures: up to 30 days in a normal refrigerator temp and up to 6 months in a normal freezer - now, that's already manageable within the existing logistics.

The downside,at the same time the reason for the better temperature tolerance compared to Pfizer's version, is that their vaccine has a larger RNA content =it will be more expensive to manufacture.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:32 am quote
RRider wrote:
jimc wrote:
The Oxford vaccine, when it's ready to be deployed, can be kept in domestic refrigerators. I suspect the Pfizer and Moderna ones will only be deployed in richer economies, and the Oxford one will be the go-to for the rest.
Moderna has actually updated their cold storage figures: up to 30 days in a normal refrigerator temp and up to 6 months in a normal freezer - now, that's already manageable within the existing logistics.

The downside,at the same time the reason for the better temperature tolerance compared to Pfizer's version, is that their vaccine has a larger RNA content =it will be more expensive to manufacture.
True, however when it comes to wiping out a global pandemic you can't put a price on someone's head so to speak. So in urban areas that can provide the refrigeration maybe Pfizer is the way to go. For those rural and hard to reach areas the warmer storage temp and time to inject makes Moderna the choice.

The hard hitting question is what to do about developing nations? We have to approach this as a global community with a no man (person) left behind mentality. Who pays for that is the question and as I type this I realize WHO is an important part of the sentence. A certain country will be rejoining soon and hopefully help with the funding/strategics along with the rest of us living in a first world nation.

We may very well have to live with this for a long time. I'm not sure about how long the immunity lasts but I do not think it is forever. So as it flares up in certain areas we need to be able to act fast and vaccinate. We also need to look at why this happened and see if food/livestock handling protocols can be changed to avoid future pandemics.

Face it almost all of us on this board have had it easy and we really have to go back to our grandparents or further to see real suffering and world shattering events. This is it and hopefully the last one in a long time. 9/11 was bad but as was the Cold War but not to this level. We did get REALLY close during the Cuban Missile Crises but luck (thank you Vasily Alexandrovich) was not on our side this time..Still I know some may feel differently in the "I would not be affected" department by a large war but I'll take this over that. Ideally neither but we don't make those choices.
Molto Verboso
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:57 pm quote
When our lock down was announced last week at short notice, there was the usual panic buying. Toilet paper (even though supermakets remain open), fresh meat (even though butchers remain open) and alcohol sales soared with people fearing they would miss out on essentials. It was assumed that bottle shops (alcohol sales) would be closed with most other busnesses, but this turned out not to be the case.
The Drug and Alcohol Services organization recommended that bottle shops stay open to reduce the incidence of depression, anxiety and domestic violence by those alcohol dependent.
So bottle shops are an essential service along with supermarkets, hospitals and government.
The Global Drug Survey Covid 19 found 40% of Australians drinking more alcohol during the first lockdown. Cheers.

Last edited by Sledge on Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
Ossessionato
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:01 pm quote
Sledge wrote:
The Drug and Alcohol Services organization recommended that bottle shops stay open to reduce the incidence of depression, anxiety and domestic violence.
Well that must be a first! Normally they say it causes those things...
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:37 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Sledge wrote:
The Drug and Alcohol Services organization recommended that bottle shops stay open to reduce the incidence of depression, anxiety and domestic violence.
Well that must be a first! Normally they say it causes those things...
Yeah same deal here with liquor being available. I think the issues is that forcing people to go dry or even a threat of closing down liquor sales would cause a whole other set of issues. Restaurants are allowed to see wine and beer "to go" or with delivery along with food. I think that is actually a good idea as it gives them another revenue stream and I don't see why you shouldn't be able to order a bottle of Barolo if ordering from an Italian restaurant you would normally dine at. Some upscale pizza places actually offer pizza and wine specials and we have taken advantage of that.
Ossessionato
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Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:30 am quote
Bump
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:49 pm quote
Attila wrote:
The virus also passes through the eyes that's why visors, do you think that in Sturgis everyone without exception wore a mask and washed their hands? It was enough that even if you had the mask but you had uncovered eyes and whoever you met had no protection you transmitted the infection.
Who said anything about masks. Here is a photo of Sturgis 2020. Nary a mask in sight.

sturgis-covid-south-dakota-minnesota-01-gty-llr-201121_1605982142085_hpMain_16x9_992.jpg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:20 pm quote
That bloke wearing ear muffs is particularly comical.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:00 pm quote
znomit wrote:
That bloke wearing ear muffs is particularly comical.
Well you have to assume he has a full n95 mask on , goggles and ear muffs are to ensure every orifice is covered.
Hooked
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Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:27 pm quote
Harbinger wrote:
No surprise but it's official that the Sturgis rally led to a Covid-19 outbreak in Minnesota.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/21/us/south-dakota-sturgis-rally-outbreak-minnesota/index.html
There's been any number of new articles which identified how the virus spread out after the rally.

If you look at this web site's graph (initially) displaying the rates for states largely in the upper midwest because they have the worst rates in the nation, you can see that their steep upward case curves started right after the rally.

http://genepilot.com/covid19/covid19B.html

What hasn't been published or even tracked is how many attendees have gotten sick or died as a result of the rally. Although as Captain Jim has shown - it was possible to go there, thrive and survive without problem.

Molto Verboso
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Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:52 pm quote
RRider wrote:
Harbinger wrote:
Attila wrote:
But what does it take to make a refrigerated container to put in a maxi camper?
Really? That's one hell of a camper .

The main issue is that the vaccine, which is based on a novel technology that uses synthetic mRNA to activate the immune system against the virus, needs to be kept at minus 70 degrees Celsius (-94 F) or below.
This is indeed a bit of pain... - 70C for long term (~6 months max?) storage and ~5 days in normal freezers.

For a vaccine that is desired to be given masses of people within a short time frame this temp requirement definitely does not help the logistics.

In a normal, even large hospital - 70C is a rare requirement. Plenty of normal freezers, especially if there are larger lab facilities included, but that 5 days is not an easy target for the whole logistics chain from the deep freeze to the injection needle of each individual.
It is quite common for veterinarians, technicians or herd owners to both store and transport bull sperm for artificial insemination purposes in single use straw-like vials kept in vacuum flasks of liquid nitrogen. The straw containing the semen is removed from the flask immediately prior to use and is warmed in warm water for 20-40 seconds before insertion.

This is a viable storage and transport option for the Pfizer vaccine.
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