Vape switchable ignition curves
Post Reply    Forum -> Not-So-Modern
Author Message
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7646
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:49 pm quote
First thanks to Charlieman22 for alerting us that SIP was releasing this. Well actually it's not SIP just yet, it's Overrev, the company who first launched the Vape ignition for Vespa.
To be honest I'm not sure if there is a difference between the SIP Vape ignition and the Overrev version, they look the same. Although I think that the Overrev version was a lot more expensive before sIP started selling theirs.

Anyway, it's advertised here at the KR Automation site in Germany. You can't actually see the switches in this picture. They do supply an extra box (on the right) that doesn't come with the SIP version - no explanation what it is.
KR Automation wrote:
- 16 different ignition curves, switchable via 4x microswitches on the CDI
https://1537118469.jimdofree.com/english/overrev-ignition/

Oh and the price here doesn't include the backing plate which is an extra 40-odd euros.

Overrev Vape ignition 16 curves 2.jpg

Overrev Vape ignition 16 curves 1.jpg

Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4426
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:16 pm quote
so what is the advantage vs SIP variable unit?
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2505

Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:58 pm quote
It has 15 more timing curves than the Vape. I could see that very helpful, depending upon your engine tune. For instance most (if not all) timing curves on the preset variable ignition kits will be at a completely wrong curve for a stock (or stock-ish) engine.
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2505

Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:00 pm quote
The kit also doesn't include a cooling fan!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7646
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:44 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
The kit also doesn't include a cooling fan!
This is where it gets to be your lucky day! Fortunately the good people at KR Automation make a fan that is so much better than other leading brands!
Actually it does sound pretty good... I sent them a message on FB regarding the below comparison of some fans, asking if they'd tested against a SIP Vape fan as well. The answer was not yet.
Also I asked whether there were two fan sizes for large and Smallframe - one size fits all.

Scroll down a bit https://1537118469.jimdofree.com/english/overrev-ignition/
Quote:
Fan wheel "LUFTNUMBER" for Vespatronic and Overrev with 12 blades
The LUFTNUMMER 12 suitable for Vespatronic, Parmakit und Overrev Ignition Systems.
12 Blades
Fiber reinforced high strengh injection molded plastic in black
suitable for Largeframe and Smallframe and M200
At 10.000 rpm 50% more Air than Vespatronic with same drag

The Plastic Fans from other Companies didn't exactly fit our needs. Parmakit fans have a lot of drag, Vespatronic doesn't deliver enough air all the time, the fancy colours don't fit all scooters and CNC milled Fans are quite expensive.

One big issue with CNC milled Fans is their stability. Does the driver fall down the stiffnes delivers the punch directly to the crancshaft which may occur severe damage. The race may be over.

The Luftnummer 12 intends to be an economical alternative to Vespatronic and Parmakit fans and especially to CNC milled aluminum fans. The Luftnummer 12 fits mit small modifications Polinitronic as well.
It does not fit on rotors with "additional weight" on the outside.


Clipboard01.jpg

Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2557
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:21 pm quote
Looking at the manifest for what's included in the kit, the extra box is the control unit for the variable timing.

I also found a scooterlab article about the 2017 edition of the product.

They included this mapping of the different timing curves, which look like they're probably more useful for smallie motors that turn a lot more RPM's than a large frame.

Ignition_Curves_Overrev-800.jpg

Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1395
Location: california
Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:15 pm quote
Damn Ginch - good find.
The SIP guys said that some of the curves would benefit mid rev power band for less high strung motors - kicking in closer to 5k? He drew me a curve - but I couldnít find what I did with the paper when I got back! Useless Ik.

Wonder if the reason SIP hasnít launched theirs is because they are working on a slightly different set of curve presets That includes more mid Range power? just a guess.

couple observation:
- if it uses an extra box, probably means we will be able to upgrade our existing VAPE with just the additional box.
- I suspect SIP had more than one unhappy call about people burning holes in their piston with the variable... I think they see the preset options as means to offer variable with a bit more buffer against poor set up?
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4426
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:00 pm quote
Now I see, I thought the vape was more flexible than that.
Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2557
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:55 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
- I suspect SIP had more than one unhappy call about people burning holes in their piston with the variable... I think they see the preset options as means to offer variable with a bit more buffer against poor set up?
If SIP think that, then they should get ready for disappointment when it launches. If anything, I expect they'll see MORE people blowing up motors because they set the wrong curve and don't properly check the timing to confirm what they're actually running.

As of now, I wouldn't buy it unless they had more curves that are friendlier to lower-revving motors.

Also, assuming that the extra box is the control unit, you'll need a non-variable ("touring") version of the CDI to go with it, as the CDI handles the timing in the current fixed curve setup.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7646
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:57 pm quote
I see what you mean about the curves Chandlerman, they really don't come back down far enough until it's too late! Hadn't seen the SLUK article.

Somehow I seriously doubt that SIP are shelling out any money at all for melted pistons. The few stories I've heard about them seem like this is something they never do... and you can't blame them really, otherwise people would have a lifetime supply of pistons by simply saying the parts were not good enough.

So yes - the extra box IS the magic bit. Here's the page from the Vape company website that describes the box, or digital control unit as they call it.
http://www.vape.cz/en/technologie/ridici-jednotky/
Vape.cz wrote:
Digital control unit , further only control unit
Type designation: RJ.. (plus 2 numbers)

Functional description of control unit:

It is a digital memory control system, which controls the value of the preignition of the gas mixture depending on the engine rpm . It is concerned a modification of the angular value < fi before the TDC of the engine crankshaft according to the predefined characteristics. Into one control unit it is possible to pre-set also more characteristics , by request of the customer, eventually to control the preignition by yet another parameter, than the engine rpm. E.g. by means of the dependance on the cold and hot engine or the dependance on the value of the underpressure in the suction tube etc.

Digital units works in the electric connection with various VAPE ignition systems .
Disposal of control units

According to control signal mode/type
The control signal is reduced from the sensor (so-called external sensing). The sensor is placed in the place above the perimeter of rotor of alternator. On the rotor is a metal stump , which rotates nearly sensor and induces the electric voltage in it .
The control signal is reduced into the control unit directly from the synchronizing coils of the stator of alternator (so-called internal sensing). This mode does not require external sensors .
According to ignition type
battery (inductive)
condenser- (capacitive)
According to power supply
from the battery circuit
independent /power/ supply (autonomic)
According to range of working speed/ engine rpm
60 till 10 000 min -1
100 till 15 000 min -1
300 till 24 000 min -1
You can see of course that the unit is marked with RJ 53-2.
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2505

Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:41 pm quote
As is with a Vape variable timing kit on my stock P2, i'm underwhelmed about the usefulness of it on a stock setup (as in i think it IS useless). A stock cylinder can't utilize the Vape's retard curve (that happens in the higher RPMs). I keep meaning to buy a Vape "static" CDI to install in place of my variable one. Now if a (12VDC) kit came out that had a timing curve that was for a non to mild tune, then it would benefit me.
Addicted
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 616
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:44 am quote
whodatschrome wrote:
As is with a Vape variable timing kit on my stock P2, i'm underwhelmed about the usefulness of it on a stock setup (as in i think it IS useless). A stock cylinder can't utilize the Vape's retard curve (that happens in the higher RPMs). I keep meaning to buy a Vape "static" CDI to install in place of my variable one. Now if a (12VDC) kit came out that had a timing curve that was for a non to mild tune, then it would benefit me.
I hadn't looked that close but I see what you mean, the teal color 1m looks like it is good to 7500 but that is the only one. I think the intended audience and application is more for racing not a stockish setup.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1395
Location: california
Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:29 am quote
Quote:
Also, assuming that the extra box is the control unit, you'll need a non-variable ("touring") version of the CDI to go with it, as the CDI handles the timing in the current fixed curve setup.
Good point. I suppose the "upgrade" can only be done with a single new box if you have the static one currently. Also - likely right - putting a variable set of curves on is likely not to make it simpler... = more risk of holed pistons not fewer.

SIP is likely not replacing peoples pistons... coaching most to go to the "touring" for all reasons stated. They are at least keenly aware that many do not get the setup right with the variable one currently...

Speaking of which - for those of us less advanced (no pun intended) - perhaps it would be interesting to clarify why people hole their pistons - if anyone wants to outline it in simple terms - or correct below.
My basic understanding:
- You set your timing to greater retard than you would for static ignition - when using variable
- This retard helps at low RPM - but hinders at high RPM.
- Thus a variable ignition advances as you go up in RPM - giving best of both worlds (in theory).

I assume that people hole their pistons because they fail to set enough retard - so they end up with too much advance when the variable moves ignition closer to TDC - and the (detonation?) burns a hole in the piston. (as opposed to burning a hole in piston at low RPM because they are too retarded).

I had a tough time making heads or tails of the curves graph - perhaps only me. Personally, I don't need 10 choices - just one good one for midrange power. Anyone wanna try and clarify for the variable timing chart challenged - how to read that thing?!
bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5299
Location: So Cal
Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:53 am quote
Canít make sense of those curves either.
But pretty sure the object of variable timing generally is to advance at lower RPM and retard the timing as RPMís increase ... basically the opposite of what you wrote.

Too advanced timing at high RPM for any extended time is pretty much a guaranteed piston-holer.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1395
Location: california
Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:11 am quote
Well - when I have something wrong - I like to make sure everyone knows by posting it in detail...
Quote:
pretty sure the object of variable timing generally is to advance at lower RPM and retard the timing as RPMís increase
That was how I thought it worked - until I followed this discussion.

If the variable unit retards (mark moves clockwise under timing light when engine revved) I would think it would be at greater risk of holing a piston at low RPM (where it is more advanced).

I would also think that static ignitions would be more inclined to burn holes in your piston - because they didn't retard the ignition as you revved.

The opposite is the case though - thus my confusion.
Anyone wanna try and untangle me?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7646
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:35 pm quote
The bigger numbers (advanced) - say 23 degrees btdc - seem to be fine for lower compression, slower revving stock motors. Whereas lower numbers (retarded) are recommended for kits or tuned setups.
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4426
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:37 pm quote
Variable ignitions retard at high rpm because it is also typically the highest load. Preignition risk goes up with increased fuel amount and temperature, which are load dependent. They are a poor mans solution because the proper way to do things is a table based on engine speed and load but we donít have an ecu here so they move it based on speed only. If you look at all of the graphs for the curves you will always see timing going smaller = later with increased engine speed.
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4426
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:41 pm quote
Using engine speed as a surrogate for load makes some sense because it takes throttle opening to get to high RPM. But... you can get high load at low rpm by going wot up a hill in too high a gear, likewise you can keep high rpm and low load going down a hill in too low a gear. Thus it is an imperfect way to do things but works out better than doing nothing and using static timing.
Molto Verboso
Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1033
Location: California
Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:19 pm quote
timing nomenclature can be confusing so advance is going to be a larger number in degrees before top dead center (BTDC) the spark is occurring sooner. To retard is to lessen the degrees for spark BTDC so that it occurs later closer to TDC. Did I get that right?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7646
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:46 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
...Now if a (12VDC) kit came out that had a timing curve that was for a non to mild tune, then it would benefit me.
It's here - http://kheper-scooter.com/

You can create your own curves, upload them to your cdi, and off you go.
Online editor to play with - http://kheper-scooter.com/khepereditor_r1/html/050817.html
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 291
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:55 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
It's here - http://kheper-scooter.com/

You can create your own curves, upload them to your cdi, and off you go.
Online editor to play with - http://kheper-scooter.com/khepereditor_r1/html/050817.html
I have one on the SS Minnow, and it's stood up well so far (touch wood, etc etc).
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7646
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:59 pm quote
Gt6MK3 wrote:
Ginch wrote:
It's here - http://kheper-scooter.com/

You can create your own curves, upload them to your cdi, and off you go.
Online editor to play with - http://kheper-scooter.com/khepereditor_r1/html/050817.html
I have one on the SS Minnow, and it's stood up well so far (touch wood, etc etc).
I'd forgotten about that!
Addicted
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 616
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:02 pm quote
I bought this one, haven't installed it yet, waiting until I get off running again first. The prefabricated curves were closer for street use in my opinion.


https://www.kytronik.com/products/smart-booster2016-2
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7646
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:04 pm quote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
I bought this one, haven't installed it yet, waiting until I get off running again first. The prefabricated curves were closer for street use in my opinion.


https://www.kytronik.com/products/smart-booster2016-2
I've fried one or maybe 2... just be extra careful about the connections. Apparently if a connection is even the tiniest bit loose it can cook the circuitry.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1395
Location: california
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:15 pm quote
^ talk about playin with fire.
🙂

Ginch and John - Thanks for above.
Can read graph now.
Need a certain amount of advance to be safe from piston holing.
The higher the number, the more advance. Clear.

Looks like the teal is for us middle of the road guys. Kicks in at 3800 which is a little better then existing.
Speaking of which - purple looks a lot like existing SIP. C below.

Not sure if single new curve would justify for me - but then again - how many curves do I need?

282466F2-DF58-49A8-AF85-583EB11146E7.jpeg

Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 291
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:32 pm quote
My Kytronic lasted literally hours, and not many of them.

The Kheper has lasted months. (about 8000km so far of my usual sedate, leasurely riding style.)

(I'm off to full body hug a tree).

C.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2132
Location: London UK
Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:06 pm quote
Lot of chat here. Not read it all but should be mentioned, the point where your exhaust comes on pipe is pretty relevent to curve selection.

We should have a support group ready for Craig. Never seen a Kheper last so long.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7646
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:51 pm quote
The question of whether the Overrev switchable controller would work on a SIP Vape ignition was still not confirmed. I was looking again at the Overrrev ignition the other day, and found that LTH sell the bits separately.


So I wrote to Marco the owner, and asked him if it would work. Here's his reply:
lambretta-teile.de wrote:
Hi Michael

You need overrev coil and controller, than you can use it on your sip ignition.

Mit freundlichen GrŁŖen / best regards

Marco BŁttner
Here is the controller - https://www.lambretta-teile.de/Controller-CDI-Vape-Overrev-16-curves-Lambretta-Vespa

And here is the coil- https://www.lambretta-teile.de/Coil-Vape-Overrev-Lambretta-Vespa

Btw, I've bought a number of things from LTH over the past few years and it's always been a positive experience. Even when Craig and I bought the LTH midrange exhausts for the smallie projects and they had a small fitting problem, he offered to either fix it or partially compensate us.
Also, he said if there's anything I need that SIP has and he doesn't, he'll sell it to me at a discounted price as he's a SIP reseller. Shipping has been in the same league as SIP as well. And when you write to LTH it's usually him that replies which is kind of nice. So a good alternative to the big guys.
Addicted
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 775
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:48 pm quote
I agree re: LTH being good to deal with. Havenít bought much from them - but this has me interested.

Regarding the fans for these... anyone know if someone makes a fan that will take a starter ring gear??? Haha... before I try to modify my VAPE one...
Team Scooter Trash for Petfinder Foundation   Vespa Wasp Pin Badges   Scooter Parts Company
Post Reply    Forum -> Not-So-Modern
[ Time: 0.3488s ][ Queries: 25 (0.0487s) ][ Debug on ]