front wheel bearings
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Addicted
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 526
Location: tampa
Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:04 am quote
177610 sealed roller bearing
177442 needle bearing

so I noticed making very slow speed turns if I turn sharp enough it felt like brake drag. I figured wheel bearings need to be replaced. bike has about 20,000 miles. lifting front off ground the left wheel has some thrust movement. so for those that have replaced the bearings should I be doing the needle bearing as well? or will replacing roller bearing only remove the play in wheel?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21464
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:52 pm quote
do both your already there anyway.

and both sides
Hooked
2009 MP3 400
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 113
Location: Sayre, PA
Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:45 pm quote
Funny you should ask that question... My spring fix-up package from ScooterWest just arrived this evening.

My 400 doesn't have anywhere near 20,000 miles on it but one of the front bearings has a wobble. By the end of the weekend I'll be able to tell you which piece makes a difference.

Need to stop at the hardware store and see if I can rent a blind bearing puller.

IMG_5987.JPG

Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21464
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:08 pm quote
pmatulew wrote:
Funny you should ask that question... My spring fix-up package from ScooterWest just arrived this evening.

My 400 doesn't have anywhere near 20,000 miles on it but one of the front bearings has a wobble. By the end of the weekend I'll be able to tell you which piece makes a difference.

Need to stop at the hardware store and see if I can rent a blind bearing puller.
most national auto parts stores has loan programs on tools like pullers for free. check with them in your area
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 7944
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:59 am quote
Did mine years ago and I only remember there being a needle bearing. Going to have to take a look at the parts catalog again.
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:23 am quote
Found this

51812.jpg



Last edited by Eakins on Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:34 am; edited 1 time in total
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:24 am quote
I need to do this, is there a write up.

Skf 6202 rsh is the one sealed bearing as seen.
Cheaper than oem and maybe better quality?

Is there a aftermarket on the other one too?
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:35 am quote
Does the seal survive getting pulled or buy new seals?
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:40 am quote
Wait a minute that's a single sealed side bearing - RSH.

Why not use seals on both sides 2RSH?

6202 2RSH

Am I missing something very obvious for not using a double sided sealed wheel bearing...like every one else does???

Was Piaggio really dumb enough to spec a single sided sealed bearing?
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:51 am quote
RS and 2RS are a level below the HD RSH spec.
http://evolution.skf.com/us/added-versatility-as-use-of-rsh-heavy-duty-seals-is-extended/

Makes no sense to have a heavy duty seal only on 1 side in a wheel.
Yes there is an additional seal but those are nowhere as good as a seal in the bearing.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21464
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:56 am quote
Eakins wrote:
Wait a minute that's a single sealed side bearing - RSH.

Why not use seals on both sides 2RSH?

6202 2RSH

Am I missing something very obvious for not using a double sided sealed wheel bearing...like every one else does???

Was Piaggio really dumb enough to spec a single sided sealed bearing?
how does grease get in if both sides are sealed?

straight from the service manual- suspension page 247-248


"Use the specific tool to fit and push the roller cas- ing until it stops
- Refit the oil seal on the roller bearing side
- Lubricate the area between the roller bearing and the ball bearing"
Hooked
2009 MP3 400
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 113
Location: Sayre, PA
Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:52 am quote
At the end of the season when I noticed the wobble, I took the hub off to see if there was something obviously amiss. There wasn't.

The whole assembly seems light duty to me. Parts-bin engineering carried over from the other models I assume.

The only write-up I could find was a YT video on a BV front hub that conveniently skipped over all the important steps. He was able to knock the roller bearing out the old fashion way with a screwdriver and a hammer and press out the needle bearing.

I'm going to give it a go later this afternoon. I'll document it as I go.
Hooked
2009 MP3 400
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 113
Location: Sayre, PA
Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:40 am quote
Oh the little details the service manual leaves out...

The hole in the hub for the "roller bearing" on the outside has a step in the bottom where the bearing will seat.

The hole for the "roller cage", (the needle bearing) does not have a step at the bottom. I pressed it in part way, and then tried to use the inner seal (#177443) to push it down flush like it was to begin with. Yeah, I squished it.

I can only assume that the factory tool (020038Y Punch) is sized to length somehow so the needle bearing seats to the correct depth.

Guess I need to order some new seals...
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2382
Location: Starfleet Command Engineering, Southern UK HQ,
Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:14 am quote
Many bikes of all types and makes come with single side seal bearings. Not a fan of these myself so I always replaced them when required with fully sealed bearings. They do last longer and cost the same.
Hooked
2009 MP3 400
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 113
Location: Sayre, PA
Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:52 am quote
"In theory..." the glob of grease you place in the center of the hub between the bearings can soften with heat and spin out to replenish both the roller bearing and the needle bearing. How much that actually happens "in real life" is open to interpretation.
Hooked
2009 MP3 400
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 113
Location: Sayre, PA
Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:33 am quote
https://youtu.be/vYW9ale-Kw4

(Youtube video of how the front wheel bearings fit on the axle.)

Last edited by pmatulew on Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:16 am; edited 5 times in total
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:45 am quote
old as dirt wrote:
Eakins wrote:
Wait a minute that's a single sealed side bearing - RSH.

Why not use seals on both sides 2RSH?

6202 2RSH

Am I missing something very obvious for not using a double sided sealed wheel bearing...like every one else does???

Was Piaggio really dumb enough to spec a single sided sealed bearing?
how does grease get in if both sides are sealed?

straight from the service manual- suspension page 247-248


"Use the specific tool to fit and push the roller cas- ing until it stops
- Refit the oil seal on the roller bearing side
- Lubricate the area between the roller bearing and the ball bearing"
Guess I'm confused by that???

I've never heard of any moto wheel engineering where you hope grease gets in a bearing for the first with one side open? You pack bearings and press them in.

Now there are ways to press fresh grease in places with the old grease coming out or the bolt greaser on the front to add more.
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:54 am quote
pmatulew wrote:
Oh the little details the service manual leaves out...

The hole in the hub for the "roller bearing" on the outside has a step in the bottom where the bearing will seat.

The hole for the "roller cage", (the needle bearing) does not have a step at the bottom. I pressed it in part way, and then tried to use the inner seal (#177443) to push it down flush like it was to begin with. Yeah, I squished it.

I can only assume that the factory tool (020038Y Punch) is sized to length somehow so the needle bearing seats to the correct depth.

Guess I need to order some new seals...
Ok so the cage bearing seats, it bottoms out. A bearing seating tool or properly sized socket will seat it. Helps to freeze it before to slightly shrink it just like any other wheel bearing. Needs a pull to remove.

Is there backside access for a wedge and fork remover or is a blind bearing removal tool needed?

And the roller needle bearing is greased and just pressed down so far? And the seal sits between the 2 bearings?

Are there any good pics of all of this?
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:56 am quote
So has a quality SKF needle roller bearing been found?
Are there size markings or part marking on the OEM parts?

How about an aftermarket seal?
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:57 am quote
pmatulew wrote:
This does not play
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:01 am quote
pmatulew wrote:
"In theory..." the glob of grease you place in the center of the hub between the bearings can soften with heat and spin out to replenish both the roller bearing and the needle bearing. How much that actually happens "in real life" is open to interpretation.
Is that's why it's open?
That's a BS theory.
You pack your bearings with quality grease and do your best to seal them.

Even if that's the case that's grease into the needle roller bearing.
I'm taking about a both sides sealed cage bearing.
You seal it and hope it lasts long.

Sound like their some weird ass Italian engineering going on here?
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:12 am quote
Found these

23042010062.jpg

23042010063.jpg

23042010064.jpg

Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:16 am quote
These are 500 hubs but looks similar.

So where is this seal going exactly.

And there is a gap between the 2 bearings, that area gets greased & that grease magically migrates over and into that open side of the cage bearing....yeah right.
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:17 am quote
Middle pic. Does that needle roller housing move at all or is it solidly pressed into place?
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:23 am quote
Looks like a circlip is stopping that caged bearing.
So it's pressed in from the other side, but if you remove the circlip you can pull it out from this side?
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:31 am quote
pmatulew wrote:
Oh the little details the service manual leaves out...

The hole in the hub for the "roller bearing" on the outside has a step in the bottom where the bearing will seat.

The hole for the "roller cage", (the needle bearing) does not have a step at the bottom. I pressed it in part way, and then tried to use the inner seal (#177443) to push it down flush like it was to begin with. Yeah, I squished it.

I can only assume that the factory tool (020038Y Punch) is sized to length somehow so the needle bearing seats to the correct depth.

Guess I need to order some new seals...
Did you look at numbers on.your 400 needle bearing?

HK2212?

If I order oem and get a Japanese NTN bearing those are quality bearings.

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/needle-roller-bearing-hk-2212-22x28x12mm-used-for-front-hub-back-plate-vespa-px-1982-t5-125cc-cosa-pk-gilera-fuoco-piaggio-hexagon-mp3-sfera-skr-quartz-zip-sp-vespa-et2-et4-gt125-gtl-gts125-gtv-lx-lxv-s-3720017

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Front-Needle-Bearing-Piaggio-MP3-400-RL-2011-2012-/303087921629
Hooked
2009 MP3 400
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 113
Location: Sayre, PA
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:52 am quote
So many questions.. That's right where I was the first time I looked at it.

The outside is sealed by the factory seal on that single sided bearing. The inside is sealed by a tiny 20mm oil seal that sits on top of the needle bearing. In between they are both open to the cavity where you glop grease. I agree that both bearings should and will be pre-packed before I install them. Packing the hub cavity with grease also is the traditional method. How much it actually helps is open to debate.

I've got video started of the bearing swap process. Hoping that I can source a set of replacement seals in town this morning. If not I'll have to order out and it will be couple days.

i used a press because I had one. Both bearings are "press fit", but neither one was very tight. The hot/cold game or a puller made of threaded rods and nuts and washers would likely work just as well.

Bummer that you can't get the video to play. Try this -> https://youtu.be/vYW9ale-Kw4 or just search Youtube for "Piaggio MP3 Wheel Hub"

My game plan for positioning the needle bearing (since it doesn't have a positive stop) is to press it 4mm below flush, and then gently tap the oil seal down on top of it.

Last edited by pmatulew on Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:21 am; edited 3 times in total
Hooked
2009 MP3 400
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 113
Location: Sayre, PA
Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:50 am quote
No dice finding the seals in town.

Lesson learned: Order seals with the bearings. They're not very expensive.

#177443 (20 x 26 x 4 oil seal)
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:42 am quote
Got that video to play with that link, thanks.
Now I can really see how those sit and the order of things.

So it looks like the needle bearing should just sit flush at the top of the inner lip then with the seal sitting on top and then flush with the outer lip?

Since it can float anywhere on that shaft wouldn't that make sense and have it sit the most outboard on that opposite side of that small hub?

Did you mic the distance between that lower inner lip and the outer top lip? Is that the same 4mm as the seal?

23042010063.jpg

Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:51 am quote
That video shows why you want the very best outer bearing for sure.
That's taking all the sideways load cornering load.

I see why parts resellers on the ball are sticking SKF for the outer bearing.

I'd bet it's more that outer bearing that is the one that is always wearing vs the needle bearing showing any load wear, but it's best to replace it all while in there.

So did you get a Japanese needle bearing from Piaggio & was that the #?

I
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:09 am quote
Now back to that controversial outer cage bearing inner seal or not.

Now I get the idea how it can be ok for the inner bearings to be open with grease in the cavity between the 2.

Knowing how grease looks after 30 years of removing parts, I think there is zero chance of any of that grease moving into the outer cage bearing when needed. It's not bad engineering but not top shelf either.

On a traditional moto wheel you would have double seals.
The outer seals in the cage bearing and then another seal on both sides and a support pipe in the middle.

With this design each side only has 1 water seal.
Right there a flaw with that outer bearing taking so much load another flaw. Strike 2.

I will buy a double sided sealed bearing and look at it all.
You can always remove the inner bearing seal and leave it off.

I see no downside to having that inner bearing seal in place then grease packed between that bearing and the roller bearing.

...unless I hear a valid engineering argument, past grease can move inside there when needed, from someone here?

Package cavity grease just sits there in my experience with a gap forming between it and the bearing over time.

Packed grease is not a bad solution to keep water and contamination out from the inside edge...but so is a proper seal too.
Strike 3.

I'm all ears people....
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:14 am quote
This is SKF technology with a RSH seal so why not utilize it on both sides and fully protect to hard working outer bearing?

http://evolution.skf.com/us/new-sealing-solutions-for-deep-groove-ball/
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:17 am quote
Here is were I found those pics.
are front wheel bearings adjustable?
Hooked
2009 MP3 400
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 113
Location: Sayre, PA
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:09 pm quote
i tend to agree about the extra grease packed in the cavity. I've had many old hubs apart and the grease in the middle looks as though it has never moved. The concept is valid but the execution may depend on a lot of factors. Centrifugal force and melting temperature of the grease being foremost. I also play with vintage sewing machines. One of the motor styles uses low temperature grease with cottons wicks to continuously lubricate the motor shaft. Cool when it works.

As for the inner seal; Logically wider would be more stable. But, the seal is same outside diameter as the needle bearing and seats down in the same bore. So the needle bearing has to be pushed down below flush to make room for the seal.
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:35 pm quote
pmatulew wrote:
i tend to agree about the extra grease packed in the cavity. I've had many old hubs apart and the grease in the middle looks as though it has never moved. The concept is valid but the execution may depend on a lot of factors. Centrifugal force and melting temperature of the grease being foremost. I also play with vintage sewing machines. One of the motor styles uses low temperature grease with cottons wicks to continuously lubricate the motor shaft. Cool when it works.

As for the inner seal; Logically wider would be more stable. But, the seal is same outside diameter as the needle bearing and seats down in the same bore. So the needle bearing has to be pushed down below flush to make room for the seal.
Oh the rear seal is not fitting in that wider shoulder area?
It's a smaller seal that sits down in the center bore on top of the roller bearing.

So it looks then like there is a spacer there that sits on that shoulder?
#4 sprocket.

Ok, makes sense then to set the bearing down 4mm since the rubber seal is that tall.

Thanks for doing this and spelling it all out!
Please take more pics.

I needed to do mine last fall and saw very little posted on it.
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:17 pm quote
I am looking again at the shop manual closer.

I can see where that Piaggio roller bearing installation tool looks like it stops on the outer shoulder and thus only presses in that inner roller bearing only so far. I can picture the design.

Like you said NO mention of how far that needle bearing should go otherwise.

When I do mine I will pull that back seal and measure how far that needle bearing sits below that inner lip, just to confirm your suspicion of dropping it down in 4 mm to match the seal.

Obviously that seal needs to be flush or below that inner lip as I see now how that spacer sits on top of it. So you had it above that inner lip and that spacer crushed the seal when it was torqued down.
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:27 pm quote
So that nut to secure the hub back on is:

74-88nm - front wheel axel?
I assume that means front wheel axel nut?

And since there is the range how is everyone playing this out?

There is talk the wheel will still have some a light play even after new bearings are installed.

Would going max torque help here or is middle of the range still best?

Ranges are still an odd and confusing to me coming from a Japanese exact spec system used. Torque is so you do it right & having a range just goes against all of that to me.
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:32 pm quote
pmatulew wrote:
i tend to agree about the extra grease packed in the cavity. I've had many old hubs apart and the grease in the middle looks as though it has never moved. The concept is valid but the execution may depend on a lot of factors. Centrifugal force and melting temperature of the grease being foremost. I also play with vintage sewing machines. One of the motor styles uses low temperature grease with cottons wicks to continuously lubricate the motor shaft. Cool when it works.

As for the inner seal; Logically wider would be more stable. But, the seal is same outside diameter as the needle bearing and seats down in the same bore. So the needle bearing has to be pushed down below flush to make room for the seal.
Yeah never once have I seen grease in a cavity area ever move to re-lube a bearing. Bearing grease is fortified not to warm up and move or flush out or all of our bearings would die quickly.
Hooked
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:45 pm quote
This is the tool I will use to remove those bearings, after I heat the hub. It has serve me well over the years. I keep thinking I buy a blind bearing slide hammer tool but I always have thru access.

You place the jam piece in the bearing you wish to remove. Then from the other side you put one of the 2 jam bars into the open slot of that jam piece.

You hammer it and it drives open the jam piece enough to grab the inner bearing race and force it out of the hub.
2 or 3 whacks and the bearing pops out.

https://www.pitposse.com/pit-posse-9-piece-bearing-remover-set.html

Of course you can always get a punch in there on the back side and slowly push the bearing out too.

I have multiple size bearing install tools but a well sized socket always works when sitting only on the outer edge of the bearing.

Heat on the hub to remove and heat on the hub plus a frozen bearing to install are key.

Did you slightly grease the outside of the bearing or the hub to install? There is no mention, while the Japanese manuals say to do that.
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