Riding 3-up, in America?
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Hooked
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:07 am quote
per subject.

I believe I will soon be in a summer traffic bind during school pickup hours. i.e. I either cage it, be stuck in traffic for an hour, and pickup the kids in a gas-guzzling SUV, or I can scoot to work per usual and cut traffic by 1/3.

The kids (elementary school age) have ridden 3-up in other countries, and around the city a few times, but I don't want to get arrested and get a CPS visit. The distance from school to home would be ~6 miles, < 15 min, all local. Kids would be fully geared, of course.

Anyone have thoughts on this? In terms of California law, etc.?
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:13 am quote


I'm sure that would attract unwanted attention.

How about a bicycle with a Burley trailer, unless the kids are too big.
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:17 am quote
I wouldn't risk it unless you have a sidecar rig where it's legal for sure to have one sitting in the car and one on the pillion seat.

I'm sure there is at the very least a regulation requiring each passenger to have their own seat and foot pegs or be in a sidecar.
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:08 am quote
Not it isn't legal. Yes, you are likely to attract attention and be cited. More important - why would you ever want to take such a risk? If you really need to, and want to, do something like this - a sidecar is a good idea.

https://www.azizilawfirm.com/law-help/children-on-motorcycles
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:18 am quote
Dooglas wrote:
Not it isn't legal. Yes, you are likely to attract attention and be cited. More important - why would you ever want to take such a risk? If you really need to, and want to, do something like this - a sidecar is a good idea.

https://www.azizilawfirm.com/law-help/children-on-motorcycles
I'd not mind about the risk issue, as OP has clearly stated he has experience doing this. No one here is going to convince tonyc it's "such a risk".
Frankly I'd be curious about it myself; if there is a scooter with oversize footpegs, or aftermarket add-ons to allow each their own.

From what I recall about the laws hereabouts, riding 3-up on a scooter not specifically intended for it (does such a thing exist) would be against the letter of the law.
But then, so is speeding, rolling through a stop sign, etc....
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:29 am quote
Madison Sully wrote:
From what I recall about the laws hereabouts, riding 3-up on a scooter not specifically intended for it (does such a thing exist) would be against the letter of the law.
But then, so is speeding, rolling through a stop sign, etc....
And I would suggest that speeding, rolling through a stop sign, etc (while I realize some people do those things) would be a particularly bad idea with an elementary school aged child on the back.
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:01 am quote
Dooglas wrote:
Madison Sully wrote:
From what I recall about the laws hereabouts, riding 3-up on a scooter not specifically intended for it (does such a thing exist) would be against the letter of the law.
But then, so is speeding, rolling through a stop sign, etc....
And I would suggest that speeding, rolling through a stop sign, etc (while I realize some people do those things) would be a particularly bad idea with an elementary school aged child on the back.
Yeah, that is a very good point. I know for a fact (as we all do) that an officer will often look the other way on a rolling stop but with a child on the back.. I'll tell you those school signs work as I am on my absolute best behaviour in those zones. I speed, hell we almost all do but never in a school zone.
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:44 am quote
Madison Sully wrote:
Dooglas wrote:
Not it isn't legal. Yes, you are likely to attract attention and be cited. More important - why would you ever want to take such a risk? If you really need to, and want to, do something like this - a sidecar is a good idea.

https://www.azizilawfirm.com/law-help/children-on-motorcycles
I'd not mind about the risk issue, as OP has clearly stated he has experience doing this. No one here is going to convince tonyc it's "such a risk".
Frankly I'd be curious about it myself; if there is a scooter with oversize footpegs, or aftermarket add-ons to allow each their own.

From what I recall about the laws hereabouts, riding 3-up on a scooter not specifically intended for it (does such a thing exist) would be against the letter of the law.
But then, so is speeding, rolling through a stop sign, etc....
Oh I'm definitely not speeding, nor rolling through stop signs with 1 kid on the scoot, much less 2...

Per that Azizi link, there's no limitation against riding children as long as there is 1) seat 2) foot pegs. "Seat" is nebulous, foot pegs can be easily accommodated for. Our office neighbor is a machine shop I'm sure he can cut me something appropriate. I really appreciate everyone's thoughts on this though.

Tens of thousands of kids go to school in Asia this way:


Even the ebike mamachari's in Japan/Taiwan hits 20mph/35kph these days. This new one from Giant looks nice and the mom took 2 kids to my kid's school:

ebike.jpg

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Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:48 am quote
As long as you have foot pegs and a seat area for them to sit, not sure you would be breaking any law.
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:57 am quote
tonyc wrote:
Tens of thousands of kids go to school in Asia this way:

I understand that and have spent a fair amount of time in Asia myself. You asked about illegal, and that photo definitely illustrates a practice which would get you cited in the US. The real question is whether there are legal ways to provide a seat and foot pegs for each child. Whatever you decide to pursue, I would certainly suggest you get some feedback from CHP.
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:05 pm quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
As long as you have foot pegs and a seat area for them to sit, not sure you would be breaking any law.
Maybe but let's put it this way. Have you ever seen it where you live? I've never seen it in Toronto and in the summer we have tons of bikes on the road and this is a city of millions of people and arguable the most culturally diverse city in the world. Hell I live a few blocks from Chinatown and haven't seen it there though what they pile on the e-bikes while smoking and riding makes you do a double take...

I also lived in Michigan for about a decade and spent lots of time in Manhattan and don't remember seeing it. So even if it is technically legal do you not think some cop is going to think the children are in danger/it's not legal and pull you over? I wouldn't risk it but can see it maybe working if the bike has separate pegs/seating for 3.

The picture above makes me squirm a bit and that's not even taking the flip flops in to account...
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:27 pm quote
Everyone that drives a gas guzzling SUV with only one occupant should ride a PWC. Then the people that use the SUV's the correct way wouldn't have traffic problems.
What mom say's.
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:54 pm quote
I agree itís probably not legal but I donít see the harm as long as they both can fit on the seat. And about the foot pegs. Iíve seen kids on the back of a M/C where they canít even reach the pegs.
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:05 pm quote
JKJ-FZ6 wrote:


I'm sure that would attract unwanted attention.

How about a bicycle with a Burley trailer, unless the kids are too big.
Iíve seen a number of people in my area using cargo bikes with electric hub motors carry more than one child. No problem. They probably travel 20 to 25 mph. Looks like everybody was having fun too. Also, they rode in the bike lane. All with some protective gear.

Best Miguel
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:07 pm quote
Your info says "LA" Los Angeles or Louisiana?!

As you mentioned fear of CPS I assume Los Angeles and I would say: "It's California bro, don't do it!"

I don't know the specific laws and don't have time right now to look it up and see. I'll try to get back to you with what I can find about it tomorrow.
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:13 pm quote
We all know, and it is well understood, and is not debated -- that riding on two (or 3) wheels involves increased risk. This is pretty much universally accepted as fact.

I do not think that riding in a sea of scoots on Asian streets bears any resemblance to riding a scoot in a sea of cars in an American city.
O.S.

Last edited by OldSchooot on Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:43 pm quote
Itís now past ridiculous moderators.
Why are you allowing this?
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:59 pm quote
Harbinger wrote:
I wouldn't risk it unless you have a sidecar rig where it's legal for sure to have one sitting in the car and one on the pillion seat.

I'm sure there is at the very least a regulation requiring each passenger to have their own seat and foot pegs or be in a sidecar.
^^^^^ This ^^^^^
I found your question curious. My two cents, briefly.

If you are to be stopped by the police, and are given a citation; it will be up to the judge to determine if you violated a law. With that being said, the CA Ė BMV has an interesting take on children as passengers. Basically, tether a child to you.

See Page 40 of the California MOTORCYCLE HANDBOOK. ďThe motorcycle should be equipped with passenger footrests and the child's feet must be able to reach them ... Restraint systems are available to secure a child passenger to the rider by means of a belt or harness. In the event of a fall, the child passenger will remain secured to the rider instead of being thrown free.Ē

Interesting ... California Revised Code 27800 ďIt is unlawful for a driver of a motorcycle or a motorized bicycle to carry any other person thereon, except on a seat securely fastened to the machine at the rear of the driver and provided with footrests, or in a sidecar attached to a motorcycle and designed for the purpose of carrying a passenger. Every passenger on a motorcycle or a motorized bicycle shall keep his feet on the footrests while such vehicle is in motion. (Amended by Stats. 1978, Ch. 421.)
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:12 pm quote
Dooglas wrote:
Vintage1 wrote:
I agree itís probably not legal but I donít see the harm as long as they both can fit on the seat. And about the foot pegs. Iíve seen kids on the back of a M/C where they canít even reach the pegs.
The OP specifically asked about this "in terms of California law". I'm sure you have seen kids on a M/C who could not reach the foot pegs. That is not legal in California, and is also not in any other state where I have seen the specific rules. I presume the "harm" is that he does not want to be cited.

See page 40, California Motorcycle Manual -

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/wcm/connect/af13374c-aa57-4f2b-9ac9-aa3fdc419cc9/dl665.pdf?MOD=AJPERES
.

My meaning was Iíve seen children that couldnít reach the pegs and have never seen or heard of a rider being stopped. Take my comment for what itís worth or what you paid for it.
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:27 pm quote
I've seen electric bikes like these carrying children...





Best
Miguel
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:38 pm quote
Miguel wrote:
I've seen electric bikes like these carrying children...
I think that gets right to the point Miguel. Does anyone build a scooter like that (especially like the 2nd one). Or is someone going to try to build a scooter like that?
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:43 pm quote
Everyoneís got their own personal risk level theyíre willing to accept. Would not do this here in Texas but one of the best parts of my day was taking the kids to school every morning in Thailand. A rural area with only one big road to cross, the babies were surprisingly alert and alerted me to all potential hazards whether I saw them first or not. Theyíd been riding this way their entire lives and good at it. As tonyc said, itís their way.

A83C5166-0BB6-4055-93DA-6CCD9C44D42B.jpeg

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Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:47 pm quote
Miguel wrote:
I've seen electric bikes like these carrying children...
Clearly photoshopped. No siblings can coexist in such close proximity without annihilating one another.


I occasionally put both kids on the scooter for a blat around the yard. Good fun. Once or twice Iíve had two kids on the back and itís pretty cramped.
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:02 pm quote
A friend of mine used to carry his dog (Golden Retriever) in a backpack on his motorbike. He was stopped by the police but after some discussion the police could not find any law he had broken.

Just because something is not the norm does not automatically mean it is illegal.
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:16 pm quote
Dooglas wrote:
Miguel wrote:
I've seen electric bikes like these carrying children...
I think that gets right to the point Miguel. Does anyone build a scooter like that (especially like the 2nd one). Or is someone going to try to build a scooter like that?
When the bikes have an electric motor, I think they are pretty competitive with scooters in terms speed in urban areas (how fast do your really need to go while hauling kids), convenience and probably cost as well. I routinely am passed by electric cargo bikes like this hauling 2 or 3 kids while I'm powering up hill on my road bicycle (and I'm not too slow). And actually, electric bikes can cross town faster because they can ride in the bike lane which is generally not congested. Scooters are licensed like motorcycles and must to remain in the congested traffic lanes with cars, except in just a few states like California that allow lane-splitting/filtering (which at least in California, is only allowed when there are two or more lanes and allowed only between traffic lanes, not on the road edges). So at least for the urban environments, electric bicycles are very competitive with scooters IMO.

Here's a couple more...
Best Miguel

$4.3K


$6K
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Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:24 am quote
Wouldn't that void your insurance?
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Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:39 am quote
Illegal! No need for discussion. Use the car for kids.
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Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:44 am quote
zigzagguzzi wrote:
Illegal! No need for discussion. Use the car for kids.
Can you cite reference statutes for the state(s) the OP rides in?
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Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:52 am quote
Give
Not photoshopped.

Seen them all over Holland.

Bill x
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Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:53 am quote
Way back in the day (20 years ago) I had a tandem bicycle with "kiddie crank" conversion for the stoker, and either a burley trailer or (later) a "trail a bike" that could be pedaled. Huge rig, but tons of fun.
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Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:55 am quote
Another thing to keep in mind if you do decide to do this: if you do get stopped by the police, they're not just going to ticket you and let you continue on. They'll require you to find safe transportation for both children at that time.
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Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:09 am quote
zigzagguzzi wrote:
Illegal! No need for discussion. Use the car for kids.
Name the law then, because this says NOTHING about number of passengers, they just have to have a seat and foot pegs.
" California Revised Code 27800 ďIt is unlawful for a driver of a motorcycle or a motorized bicycle to carry any other person thereon, except on a seat securely fastened to the machine at the rear of the driver and provided with footrests, or in a sidecar attached to a motorcycle and designed for the purpose of carrying a passenger. Every passenger on a motorcycle or a motorized bicycle shall keep his feet on the footrests while such vehicle is in motion. (Amended by Stats. 1978, Ch. 421.)"
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Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:12 am quote
monogodo wrote:
Another thing to keep in mind if you do decide to do this: if you do get stopped by the police, they're not just going to ticket you and let you continue on. They'll require you to find safe transportation for both children at that time.
Cop can't just make up laws, per the Ca law it is totally legal if everyone has a seat and foot pegs.
And I bet most state laws are written about the same as Ca.
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Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:46 am quote
We saw some wild rides in Thailand last December. Some kids looked like they were still asleep while mom took them to school. How about an invisibility cloak for the smaller of the two kids?
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Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:52 am quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
monogodo wrote:
Another thing to keep in mind if you do decide to do this: if you do get stopped by the police, they're not just going to ticket you and let you continue on. They'll require you to find safe transportation for both children at that time.
Cop can't just make up laws, per the Ca law it is totally legal if everyone has a seat and foot pegs.
And I bet most state laws are written about the same as Ca.
Agreed but cops are just people and they don't know the law inside and out. Riding your bike with 2 kids on it even with separate foot pegs or whatever stands I would think a good chance of you getting pulled over. So... even while it may be technically legal in the jurisdiction there is a good chance you and 2 kids could be standing on the side of the road while the LEO calls it in. I'm pretty certain that the safety of the children is also at the discretion of the LEO and you never know... It's part of the reason I am so respectful to cops and parking enforcement etc. The other part of it is I'm married to a retired chiefs daughter and have a small insight in to how it works, at least here.
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Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:07 am quote
Big_Boys_Mother wrote:
Harbinger wrote:
I wouldn't risk it unless you have a sidecar rig where it's legal for sure to have one sitting in the car and one on the pillion seat.

I'm sure there is at the very least a regulation requiring each passenger to have their own seat and foot pegs or be in a sidecar.
^^^^^ This ^^^^^
I found your question curious. My two cents, briefly.

If you are to be stopped by the police, and are given a citation; it will be up to the judge to determine if you violated a law. With that being said, the CA Ė BMV has an interesting take on children as passengers. Basically, tether a child to you.

See Page 40 of the California MOTORCYCLE HANDBOOK. ďThe motorcycle should be equipped with passenger footrests and the child's feet must be able to reach them ... Restraint systems are available to secure a child passenger to the rider by means of a belt or harness. In the event of a fall, the child passenger will remain secured to the rider instead of being thrown free.Ē

Interesting ... California Revised Code 27800 ďIt is unlawful for a driver of a motorcycle or a motorized bicycle to carry any other person thereon, except on a seat securely fastened to the machine at the rear of the driver and provided with footrests, or in a sidecar attached to a motorcycle and designed for the purpose of carrying a passenger. Every passenger on a motorcycle or a motorized bicycle shall keep his feet on the footrests while such vehicle is in motion. (Amended by Stats. 1978, Ch. 421.)
Ok, my kids are not as of yet big enough to reach the rider pegs. So able to reach the "Footrest" would that qualify as the floorboards in front of me?

Thank you for finding the info I was looking for! I didn't realize the few times I have taken a child with me that having them behind me (Top case with backrest) technically wasn't legal as they couldn't reach the rider pegs. Also, the reminder to have them belted to me! I don't forsee them riding with me anytime soon but now I'll have them in front of me to reach the floorboards.

So if the OP was serious. Then if a child is to ride behind them, they need to be able to reach the footpegs to be legal.
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Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:24 am quote
Sacto Monkeyboy wrote:
Ok, my kids are not as of yet big enough to reach the rider pegs. So able to reach the "Footrest" would that qualify as the floorboards in front of me?

Thank you for finding the info I was looking for! I didn't realize the few times I have taken a child with me that having them behind me (Top case with backrest) technically wasn't legal as they couldn't reach the rider pegs. Also, the reminder to have them belted to me! I don't forsee them riding with me anytime soon but now I'll have them in front of me to reach the floorboards.
You will want to reread that section of California law. "It is unlawful for a driver of a motorcycle or a motorized bicycle to carry any other person thereon, except on a seat securely fastened to the machine at the rear of the driver and provided with footrests...Ö"
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Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:33 am quote
THANKS! Not enough coffee! Ok...so no rides with the kids for a bit.
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Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:48 am quote
ď In the event of a fall, the child passenger will remain secured to the rider instead of being thrown free.Ē

And when the rider falls with the child securely attached to him, the weight of the rider could crush the child flat.
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Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:34 am quote
Vintage1 wrote:
ď In the event of a fall, the child passenger will remain secured to the rider instead of being thrown free.Ē

And when the rider falls with the child securely attached to him, the weight of the rider could crush the child flat.
Beats being squished by the scooter. Probably.
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