Rebuilding a Spermy Vespa
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P125X, P200E
Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 721
Location: Fresno, CA
Wed May 27, 2020 12:30 pm quote
Thanks L4NNF. I checked the cable sheath (I'm assuming you're talking about the pic of the ignition switch, contacts 1-5) and didn't find any problems. In fact I went through the entire headset inch by inch (or centimeter by centimeter, after all it's Italian) and I found a couple of wires with worn insulation but I repaired them and the problem still persists. The Dreaded Green Wire insulation had crumbled but I covered the bare spots in the headset and in the junction box and I had previously replaced the green wire from the junction box to the CDI so it is good. In fact, I disconnected green wire but that didn't solve the problem either. I disconnected each of the other wires in turn but still no change.

Just to make things interesting, when I went to bed last night, the brake light worked with the ignition switch but the tail light didn't work. When I woke up this morning it was the opposite... tail light/no brake light. While I was working on it, it switched to brake light/no tail light which is what it is now.

Following the wiring diagram the blue wire goes to the brake light and the gray wire goes to the tail light. Seeing that sometimes the tail light works and sometime the brake light works, the wires appear to be good.

What would cause the power to switch from going to the gray wire to going to the blue wire and vica versa? Anybody?

I'm stuck!

light bulb.jpg

Hooked
1972 Vespa GTR, 1963 Lambretta LI 125
Joined: 05 Nov 2018
Posts: 131
Location: Halifax, England
Wed May 27, 2020 5:54 pm quote
I was actually on about the picture that shows the brass steering lock. The top left of that pic you can see the cable sheath popping out from where the headset sits on the neck of the fork tube. If that has worn through there may be a chance the cables held within it are worn also and could be shorting when the handlebars are turned in either direction.

It's a long shot, but sometimes long shots hit right on the bullseye.
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P125X, P200E
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Thu May 28, 2020 11:20 am quote
GOTCHA YOU BASTARD!

i went back to square one and started thinking things through step by step. I knew the socket was good and I knew that the continuity of the blue wire to the brake light and the grey wire to the tail light was also good. I disconnected the blue brake light wire and focused on the grey wire. I was still bothered that there was no wire coming from terminal 2 on the ignition switch and that didn't make sense since terminal 2 was definitely hot with the ignition on. Also, all the wiring diagrams I saw showed that terminal 2 was active.

The grey wire to the tail light was connected to terminals 4 and 5 but there was no power to either of those terminals so I started moving connections around and finally I moved the grey wire on terminal 4 to terminal 2 and kept the other grey wire in place on terminal 5, and the bulb lit up. I reconnected the blue brake light wire and found that the problem is solved... everything works!

Apparently someone rummaged around under the headset and screwed up the works!

Contacts 1-5.jpg

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2265

Thu May 28, 2020 11:57 am quote
Thats great , also gives you a better understanding of how your wiring works.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1713
Location: Florence, OR
Thu May 28, 2020 8:31 pm quote
Woohoo! Good job getting it sorted!
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P125X, P200E
Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 721
Location: Fresno, CA
Fri May 29, 2020 9:44 am quote
Is there an LED replacement for the three watt bulbs in the headset... Neutral, turn signal etc? I'd like to find something that just plugs right in.

IMG_6330.jpg

Banned
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Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 7599
Location: San Francisco
Fri May 29, 2020 2:10 pm quote
think it's one of these https://www.superbrightleds.com/cat/ba9s-ba7s/
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2181
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri May 29, 2020 2:20 pm quote
Some of those will strobe as led if your scoot is ac and they are on the ac line. I forget exactly which ones on my Stella worked without strobing as led but it's an easy swap and they are cheap so it's worth changing everything you can. The turn signals definitely work fine as led as well as the small bulb in the headset.
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P125X, P200E
Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 721
Location: Fresno, CA
Fri May 29, 2020 4:27 pm quote
I took Spermy out for his first road test and was very disappointed. I could barely get him up to 40 mph and even then there wasn't much acceleration. Very sad, Yes, I was going by the speedometer and will check it against a GPS speedometer over the weekend, but it "felt" like about 40. Very dull.

I checked the compression and it's only 100psi. How likely is that to be the problem? I did NOT replace the rings during the rebuild. I've been told that 1) it wasn't necessary, 2) I could just swap new stock rings for the old onrd and 3) I would have to go to first-oversize and have the stock cylinder rebored.

I've never dealt with rings so I'm a little intimidated.

I"m also going to experiment with different jetting to see if I can get any better performance.

Anyone care to offer a recommendation?
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P125X, P200E
Joined: 02 Apr 2011
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Location: Fresno, CA
Fri May 29, 2020 4:27 pm quote
Thanks for the LED recommendations. I booked an order today.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1713
Location: Florence, OR
Fri May 29, 2020 6:21 pm quote
Bummer
Oh man, bummer Luckybear.
What's going on?
What jetting do you have in the carb - is it a 20/20 like Flo?
Does it idle and seem to rev up alright? I would think 100 psi should be enough to have it run fine.
How about the stator? Is it timed to 23 degrees? I believe that is what the stock P200 is set at.

Too bad you're not closer, I'd love to troubleshoot it with you...

BTW, Chris and I are going to go for a ride on Sunday - maybe when you come back up to visit we can all go for a cruise.

20200507_150217_resized.jpg
Flo'd fit in nicely - don't you think?

Addicted
P125X, P200E
Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 721
Location: Fresno, CA
Sat May 30, 2020 9:20 am quote
Yes, Flo would look good in your garage. In fact, now that I have Spermy I am going to have to sell Flo so if you池e interested, PM me and we値l talk. If not, I think I値l bring Flo to Fresno and sell here here. Either that, or I値l sell her en route. I値l be traveling from Florence to Eugene, down Highway 5 to Highway 99, to Chico, to Sacramento, to Fresno so if anyone along the way is interested, they can PM me and I値l deliver Flo to their door for inspection. Hopefully they値l read our posts on the rebuild you did. Impulse Buy

Flo at Moms.JPG

Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1713
Location: Florence, OR
Sun May 31, 2020 4:25 pm quote
How about re-torquing the Head bolts?
Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86,95,96 Elite 80s, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
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Location: Oceanside/ SF
Sun May 31, 2020 4:31 pm quote
Look up the stock jetting you have for the carb installed. If it all matches up, swap carbs. If that doesnt do it, check your exhaust. It might be clogged from rust/oil. Swap it from your other scooter and see.
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Sun May 31, 2020 7:31 pm quote
Stock Jetting is 118 MJ Rally and I've been experimenting with larger jets and getting better performance. Today I ran with a 124 and tomorrow I'll try a 126. I can hit 60 mph on my good P200 so I can always swap carbs and run a test. I was hoping to avoid that though.

The exhaust should be ok... I barbequed it so hopefully I burned out all the crap.
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P125X, P200E
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Sun May 31, 2020 7:33 pm quote
Headbolts are good qascooter. I used my torque wrench to make sure they were spot on. For now I'm just playing with the jetting
Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2265

Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:33 am quote
Fatbear5 wrote:
Stock Jetting is 118 MJ Rally and I've been experimenting with larger jets and getting better performance. Today I ran with a 124 and tomorrow I'll try a 126. I can hit 60 mph on my good P200 so I can always swap carbs and run a test. I was hoping to avoid that though.

The exhaust should be ok... I barbequed it so hopefully I burned out all the crap.
Good tip with BBQing the exhaust.
Keep working at it , you'll get it. I have so much to learn.
Addicted
P125X, P200E
Joined: 02 Apr 2011
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Location: Fresno, CA
Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:53 am quote
I just got another 12mph out of Spermy!... I used GPS instead of the speedometer. The speedometer apparently needs to be refurbished because while it reads (almost) 40 mph, my GPS program clocks me at 52.

It's still not good, but it's better.
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P125X, P200E
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Location: Fresno, CA
Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:59 pm quote
This afternoon I moved a known-good carburetor from my good P200 to Spermy but it didn't make any difference. I still topped out at only 52 mph. I can reach just over 60 mph with that carb in my good P200. I don't know what to try next to get more speed out of Spermy.

I ran into another odd thing. With the original carb in Spermy, the engine tended to race and the Idle Adjustment Screw didn't make any difference. When I put the know-good carb into Spermy, it too raced and the Idle Adjustment Screw didn't make any difference. That never happened when that carb was in my good P200.

Any thoughts?
Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86,95,96 Elite 80s, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3726
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:38 pm quote
As far as the carbs go, did the engine settle when you pulled the choke out. If that helps mellow things out you致e got an air leak somewhere. Report back.

Swap heads on your scoots. I just solved a similar problem on a friends Rally. I replaced the entire top end, exhaust, ignition timing, carb and all the same speed. Finally said what the hell and found a replacement head. Bingo! That was all it needed in the first place.
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P125X, P200E
Joined: 02 Apr 2011
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Location: Fresno, CA
Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:15 am quote
AW CRAP! Yes, when I pull out the choke, the engine shows, but wouldn't that happen anyway?

All I know about air leaks is that they are difficult to find and difficult to repair. I really don't know how to deal with one. Can someone recommend a good tutorial? Is there something I can read or watch that will walk me though the process of finding a leak? Does ScooterWest have a video... I didn't find one.

When I replaced the seals, for various reasons I did not replace the largest seal, the one near the clutch. I wonder if that might be the problem area. How would I check it?
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2401
Location: London UK
Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:35 am quote
Check the gear oil. Low level or thin and full of fuel can mean the clutch seal is leaking.
Addicted
P125X, P200E
Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 721
Location: Fresno, CA
Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:02 am quote
I read elsewhere that if I can turn the air/fuel mixture screw at that back of the carburetor all the way in and the engine still runs, it is a sign of an air leak. Would you guys agree?
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Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:21 pm quote
not really

if it has an air leek it will not hold a low idle. this can be temperature dependent, only showing up after riding a bit.

so, setting the idle mix and idle first can be helpful in diagnosing other issues.
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P125X, P200E
Joined: 02 Apr 2011
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Location: Fresno, CA
Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:16 pm quote
I had an encouraging day today. I followed MJRally's advice and installed the known-good head from my main P200 and I recorded a high speed of 58 instead of 52. I could live with that but getting to 58 mph took forever... the acceleration is ungodly slow and I don't know what to do about that. With the original head, I measured 100PSI but with the replacement head I measured only 90... and yet it went faster. hmmm

I know I could get a higher top speed but I don't want to go on a diet right now.

So what now? Do I need to replace the head or can I do something with the existing head. As best I can tell, it slts flat on a piece of glass.

IMG_6356.jpg

Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1027
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:46 pm quote
Can you get your hands on a 200 head, that has been zero decked? Removing that extra squish ring should raise compression and power theoretically.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2401
Location: London UK
Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:14 pm quote
Did you check the gear oil yet?

Has the cylinder been off yet? Might need a clean up. Rings could have an issue.
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P125X, P200E
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Location: Fresno, CA
Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:03 am quote
No Christopher, I don't really have much access to parts here locally. I buy everything new on line so I don't even know where I would get a zero decked replacement head... probably by asking for one here on the forum.

I'm really more interested in doing what I can to use the head that I have, but I don't know what needs to be done.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1713
Location: Florence, OR
Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:05 am quote
Jack has a good point. Did you put new rings in when you took the cylinder off?
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P125X, P200E
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Location: Fresno, CA
Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:26 am quote
No Jack 221. I haven't gotten around to checking for gas in the oil. I've only put 18 miles on the engine since I rebuilt it... would that be enough for gas to flow into the oil? I'll get to it in the next day or two and see what I've got.

Yes, I've had the cylinder off but no, I didn't replace the rings. I'm a little intimidated by that because I've gotten conflicting advice. Some have said I can just replace the rings but others that said that I would also need to hone the cylinder (which I've never done) and still others have said that I would need to replace the original rings with first-over and have the cylinder rebored to the larger size. That intimidates me too.

The piston and cylinder look good to me and I'm getting 100 PSI but if niew rings would help, I would try that.

Cylilnder bore condition.jpg

Piston condition.jpg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2181
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:49 am quote
If you went that route, you should only have to put new same size rings in and rehone. Honing is easy. I did it with cheap honing tool from Harbor Freight which was a little riskier cause you have to make sure not to round out the top and bottom of the cylinder by pulling the honing tool out too far while doing it. Someone else here posted a while back a better looking honing tool which is just a drill attachment with a bunch of specific grit balls on it that randomly scratch the surface to create the hone. Then you just turn it on and move the bit up and down the barrel (again making sure to keep it in the barrel and not pop out while you are doing it). Its just giving new marks for the new rings to wear into.

In both cases all you need is a drill, the tool, a bucket of water and some mineral spirits. Wash the honing tool off by spinning it in the bucket of water, dry it off by spinning it in the air, pour some mineral spirits on it, stick it in the barrel and hone it for 15 seconds, pull it out and do it all again a few times.

I believe this was the better option someone posted.. just find the right size for your barrel.
https://www.amazon.com/Research-FLEX-HONE-Cylinder-Abrasive-Diameter/dp/B002XUL0LS/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=honing+tool&qid=1591638350&sr=8-7
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2401
Location: London UK
Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:26 am quote
Those rings look bad. Change them for the same size. If original it's 66.5mm. not essential to hone.
If you ever buy a new piston, don't buy that type. There are plenty of others that are better.

Any better shots of tha cylinder ports. That might be one of the low power ones. I think they might have gone to the US with the heads.
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Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:19 pm quote
windows on that piston look opened up, any sign of porting on the cylinder?
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2636

Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:43 pm quote
It kinda looks like that piston has been seized multiple times, then someone sanded the seizure marks off of it, then seized it a few more times. I'd go full bore and rebore the cylinder, along with installing a new GS piston, and swap in a non-USA head. After that you'll be at 65mph lickety-split.


I'd also rotate that gudgeon circlip 90 degress.
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Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:48 pm quote
I didn't take any pics from the others end of the cylinder but I do have this one more pic. I'm not aware of any work being done on this head. It has about 22k miles.

Cyliinder bore conditin 2.jpg

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P125X, P200E
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Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:32 pm quote
I found this piston at Scooter Mercato. Is this what I want?

http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Pistons-Complete/133918
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Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:16 pm quote
That bore is done! not sure it'd even hone it
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Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:32 pm quote
Fatbear5 wrote:
I found this piston at Scooter Mercato. Is this what I want?

http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Pistons-Complete/133918
I'd recommend going with a piston with thinner rings. As to which oversized piston to get?...i have always just researched the piston sizes that are available, then head over to the machine shop with my existing cylinder and piston and ask him what size piston he would choose from. Then order up the piston, then head back to the machine shop again to drop all the parts off to him. There's lots of back and forth, but there also has never been any confusion on what size overbore to go with.
Ossessionato
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Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:36 pm quote
Fatbear5 wrote:
Is there an LED replacement for the three watt bulbs in the headset... Neutral, turn signal etc? I'd like to find something that just plugs right in.
and back to LEDs from a few weeks ago...

I've installed LEDs in my P2's headset, and they were too bright! The turn signal wasn't too bothering since it isn't on all the time, but the blue high beam indicator was annoying as all get out. I ended up brushing some black paint over the top of the blue LED so it wasn't so bright at night.
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P125X, P200E
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Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:48 am quote
Thanks whodatachrome what you suggest with reboring the cylinder and matching the piston makes sense but it sounds like more than I want to do. I知 not a serious mechanic and in fact, what I am doing now is pushing the limit of my mechanical skill so I want to keep things simple. I was hoping I could just change the rings and have done with it but apparently that痴 not going to work. Honing the cylinder and replacing the piston will be a stretch for me although I値l give it a try. I really don稚 want to be going back and forth to machine shops though.

I知 such a novice that I知 not even sure how to replace the piston. I know I can easily remove the grunion snap ring on the side facing me but can I get to the snap ring on the other side without dropping the engine?

Likewise, I知 going to be placing an order with Scooter Mercato anyway so I thought I壇 order the new piston from them at the same time. The http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Pistons-Complete/133918 is a stock replacement so it seems like it should be fine but do you have another one you would recommend? I知 looking for reliability rather than performance.
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