A Minnesota Shit Box in Texas (63 VNB resto).
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P200 PX150
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4373
Location: Hustletown, TX
Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:46 am quote
To early to drink?


Went to pull the flywheel looking for the missing airbox screw (see previous post... was just being super cautious.) About half way off the fly wheel nut got tight again. Weird. Tightened it back up and hit it with some penetrant. Again about halfway off it started to feel tight and like a cro-mag I gave it a little muscle... it gave and came off but it didn't feel right.

Cut through like butter and the end of it sheared in the fly nut. Went on fine. Torqued to spec. No idea how it got cross threaded or much less how it sheared given that I wasnt on it with a breaker bar or anything.

So close to being done and now so far...

F#@k and Me.

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Hooked
79p200e 66smallstate 85pk50xl 84p125ets 63GL
Joined: 24 Nov 2016
Posts: 185
Location: Flatness, Tx
Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:10 am quote
Re: snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Birdsnest wrote:
To early to drink?

No, definitely not.

What the...!!!???? How in the world....?
On the plus side, good it got sorted in the garage than on the road when it let go.

Man, that sux!! Sorry to see that when the finish line is in sight.

Stop, sit down, crack a cold one, and chill for a bit...
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1166
Location: California
Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:41 am quote
oh man sorry to see that hope you can get an exchange on that
bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5415
Location: So Cal
Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:07 pm quote
Go ahead, have a drink. Normally things like this happen after weíve already had a few.
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 7930
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:03 pm quote
Mannn... what a kick in the dick.

Iíll raise one with ya in solidarity.

-g
Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2249

Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:26 pm quote
Ahh crap, that there is some bad luck.
Addicted
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1000
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:49 pm quote
I just had one for you, that sucks.
Birdsnest wrote:
To early to drink?


Went to pull the flywheel looking for the missing airbox screw (see previous post... was just being super cautious.) About half way off the fly wheel nut got tight again. Weird. Tightened it back up and hit it with some penetrant. Again about halfway off it started to feel tight and like a cro-mag I gave it a little muscle... it gave and came off but it didn't feel right.

Cut through like butter and the end of it sheared in the fly nut. Went on fine. Torqued to spec. No idea how it got cross threaded or much less how it sheared given that I wasnt on it with a breaker bar or anything.

So close to being done and now so far...

F#@k and Me.
Moderator
P200 PX150
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4373
Location: Hustletown, TX
Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:23 pm quote
Well... if you gotta eat a shit sandwich... take big bites.

E380FD6E-1AFE-4710-B7DA-6C7A80C70963.jpeg

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2619

Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:26 pm quote
dang...
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1702
Location: california
Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:23 pm quote
Oh - that sucks.
Any chance the woodruff key was an extra tight fit?
So frustrating.
That dark circle in the pic below looks a little suspect.
If you feel like posting another more in focus - perhaps we can see what happened.
If you don't - I don't blame ya.
Sorry man.
PIA.

img_5423_33784.jpg
Any chance that dark spot sits just below the woodruff key area on the crank portion/ the break occurred right at the end of the key slot?

Moderator
P200 PX150
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4373
Location: Hustletown, TX
Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:40 pm quote
Interesting.

I had no issue with placing the woodruff key. Let me investigate and take a few more pics...

Was yammering with G and thought: I had pulled the crank into the flywheel side with a home made plate to protect the fly side seal. I wonder if the crank was just a mm off as it sat in the clutch side and the torque that the puller made pulling it straight into the flyside created a weak spot?
Just a spitball.

Pics soon(ish)
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 7930
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:51 pm quote
My best guess is a manufacturing defect. It came apart when you were loosening it.

On tightening, youíd pull threads before snapping the snout.

Just throwing around WAGís

-g
Moderator
P200 PX150
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4373
Location: Hustletown, TX
Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:14 pm quote
Close ups.

IMG_4095.JPG
woody and dark spot in line.

IMG_3454.JPG
threads look OK,

Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1702
Location: california
Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:19 pm quote
Well - that dark spot is totally suspect.
You had a defective crank shaft.
Where its darker- it was likely already broken.
When you unscrewed it - it flexed and the threads became un-aligned - making it hard unscrew - and cracking the rest of the way.

No way you caused that.
I would send pics - and point out the dark spot - and that it was un-used.
I would also note it occurred while unscrewing.
And ask them to kindly send you a new one...

img_4095_53951.jpg

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 7930
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:45 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Well - that dark spot is totally suspect.
You had a defective crank shaft.
Where its darker- it was likely already broken.
When you unscrewed it - it flexed and the threads became un-aligned - making it hard unscrew - and cracking the rest of the way.

No way you caused that.
I would send pics - and point out the dark spot - and that it was un-used.
I would also note it occurred while unscrewing.
And ask them to kindly send you a new one...
100% this.

Also, bringing it off. Running it on and over torquing it? Okay. But pulling it off with a ratchet? Not a breaker bar with a pipe or the rattle gun?

Nah man. Thatís defective. That dark spot is the tell tale sign.

-g
Moderator
P200 PX150
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4373
Location: Hustletown, TX
Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:56 am quote
Birdsnest wrote:
I had pulled the crank into the flywheel side with a home made plate to protect the fly side seal. I wonder if the crank was just a mm off as it sat in the clutch side and the torque that the puller made pulling it straight into the flyside created a weak spot?
Just a spitball.
Quoting myself... damn these are tough times!

The above is a totally bunk theory for many reasons but most of all I
just remembered -- I pulled in the clutch side not the fly side. Case dropped onto the fly smooth and easy. FWIW.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1702
Location: california
Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:18 am quote
Tho its tough to see clearly - likely cause would be damage when they cut the threads. does the discoloration go out to the of V groove of the thread?

That discoloration on both the crank and nut means it was broken for some time while still looking fine on the outside. Like rings in a tree - if just broke - it would all be the same color.

If it had been exposed to the elements at all - there would have been some corrosion there.

Sorry for the set back - that truly does suck.
Let us know if you get any love on a return.
Oh - and what brand of crank is it if that's a legit question.
Just curious.
Tks.
Moderator
P200 PX150
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4373
Location: Hustletown, TX
Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:37 am quote
Thx for your input my friend.

On the sheared bit stuck inside the fly nut, the discolored spot goes to the edge of the threads for sure. Hard to tell on the remaining threads of the shaft.

Crank is a Tameni.

Onwards.
Moderator
P200 PX150
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4373
Location: Hustletown, TX
Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:38 pm quote
New crank came in via USPS and we dropped the engine again, split the cases (2 times!) and reinstalled..

After I closed up the case on the new crank I realized the kick start gear wasn't engaging!?!?! Opened the case back up and installed the spare KS gear I had. All good in the noodlehood.

3rd times a charm... *knocks wood*

Spltsville.JPG

closedup.JPG

backinthe saddle.JPG

Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1702
Location: california
Sun Sep 06, 2020 7:26 pm quote
Quote:
After I closed up the case on the new crank I realized the kick start gear wasn't engaging!?!?! Opened the case back up and installed the spare KS gear I had.
Hahahaha!
Been there.
I think its like childbirth for women.
We don't remember the pain when its over.

Looking shinny and promising again.
Moderator
P200 PX150
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4373
Location: Hustletown, TX
Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:46 pm quote
Parts ID help.

Tail light reassembly -

Found this little metal cone ratting loose inside and canít figure out where it goes from the parts diagram I have.

Anybody have some knowledge to share.

TIA

D0A9292A-9E91-4BE8-A89E-C9C6017C18F9.jpeg

Hooked
1972 Vespa GTR, 1963 Lambretta LI 125
Joined: 05 Nov 2018
Posts: 131
Location: Halifax, England
Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:31 pm quote
That metal cone looks like one end of a two ended of a bulb. The type that is a side light usually.
Hooked
1972 Vespa GTR, 1963 Lambretta LI 125
Joined: 05 Nov 2018
Posts: 131
Location: Halifax, England
Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:33 pm quote
Part 11907 on your diagram.
Moderator
P200 PX150
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4373
Location: Hustletown, TX
Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:57 pm quote
L4NFF wrote:
That metal cone looks like one end of a two ended of a bulb. The type that is a side light usually.
Ha!
There ya go.

Thanks!
Moderator
P200 PX150
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4373
Location: Hustletown, TX
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:02 am quote
Little weirdness to sort

New crank seems fine... until I put the flywheel on. As soon as you put some torque on the nut it seems to bind up the crank. Becomes almost impossible to turn?

Iím at a bit of a loss.

Any and all help appreciated.
TIA
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2619

Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:18 am quote
Do you have a TPI thread gauge? I'd double check the thread pitch on both the crank and nut before you go any further.
Moderator
P200 PX150
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4373
Location: Hustletown, TX
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:26 am quote
whodatschrome wrote:
Do you have a TPI thread gauge? I'd double check the thread pitch on both the crank and nut before you go any further.
All good
Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2249

Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:25 am quote
I wish I had some information that would help you, I'm just here for moral support. But from you're description of the problem it sounds like the crank is somehow pulled too hard toward the clutch side and is struggling with being centered once the flywheel is bolted down.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1702
Location: california
Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:42 am quote
Well - its likely to be one of three things I would think.
The simplest of which would be that the flywheel is interfering with something.
More complicated would be the crank is moving and binding in some fashion with the internal components or the clutch side.

If now one with the same experience pipes up - here is what I would do.
Start with the simplest.
1. Remove the clutch and torque the crank. Does it free it up?
2. Remove the stator and do the same - is flywheel interfering with the electronics? Can you use some soldier to determine that you still have clearance between flywheel and key components?
3. Failing 1 & 2, pull the cylinder off and see what's happening at crank webs when you torque - can you identify any interference with a flashlight down there?

Hope helpful.
Keep us posted!
-CM
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7850
Location: seattle/athens
Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:57 am quote
Sounds like flywheel is binding and maybe the crank needs to move tighter into the flyside half of the case. You can pull it in snug with a short piece of pipe, a fat washer and your nut. But first look in the flywheel and on the stator to see if anything is rubbing. Also at this point leave the clutch cover off so you can check both ends, rotate the motor more easily while testing , etc.
bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5415
Location: So Cal
Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:08 am quote
Nine times out of 10 that kind of binding is caused by the flywheel not being square on the crank, i.e., not on the woodruff key.

Try putting the flywheel on without the woodruff. Does it bind?
Moderator
P200 PX150
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4373
Location: Hustletown, TX
Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:51 am quote
Thanks for all the replies y'all!

I *think* it may be sorted and I think it was a combination of two issues above.
I think V was right in that the flyside wasn't seated all the way. I took off the stator and just put the flywheel on and torqued it up. Bound.

Used a homaade plate and puller to seat the crank further. Reattached the flywheel after and torqued it up again and the crank spun freely. Yay. (almost)

Then, I put the stator back on and torqued in the flywheel and.....bound again. CM was also correct there is some interference there. I noticed that the flytech stator was sitting just a touch higher on the upper right side by the 2 o'clock mounting screw. To get it flush I couldn't make the timing marks line up though. So, I needed to grind some on the stator and reattach everything to confirm that all is sorted.

May head back out after the heat of the day lets up some. Will update.

Again, thanks guys! This old broad just fights and argues every single step of the way, Been a heck of a learning experience for sure.
Moderator
P200 PX150
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4373
Location: Hustletown, TX
Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:34 pm quote
And, yes... Sorted.

Time to day drink.
Moderator
P200 PX150
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4373
Location: Hustletown, TX
Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:38 am quote
Happenings-

Cabled
Wires in with spark
(Still need to wire lights.)

Question for the cognoscenti -
Whatís a good exhaust? I had read that the super 150 exhausts were a great fit and decent with the 177
Jug. But mine has zero clearance to the back wheel. None. :-/

Any suggestions on a better fitting option appreciated.

25B5F504-5986-4A9F-A80A-1684000CFED6.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1166
Location: California
Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:24 am quote
Polini Box
bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5415
Location: So Cal
Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:24 pm quote
Iím curious how people are mounting the Polini box and other aftermarket exhausts on older scoots like this with a short exhaust bolt that doesnít pass through the case.

Are you cutting off the back flange?
Drilling through the case and using a long bolt?
Or some other technique?

Inquiring minds want to know.
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1166
Location: California
Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:40 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Iím curious how people are mounting the Polini box and other aftermarket exhausts on older scoots like this with a short exhaust bolt that doesnít pass through the case.

Are you cutting off the back flange?
Drilling through the case and using a long bolt?
Or some other technique?

Inquiring minds want to know.
I have cut the rear flange with captive nut OFF on a BGM Big Box for my GL and just used the remaining flange for original bolt.

More recently on a Polini box I cut the captive nut off, bent the rear flange then added some material to join it and welded to forward flange thinking it might add something. Also added a header spring hook on two different Polini's, glad I did.

This shows the Polini box with mods and ceramic coating on my Bajaj

my BLUE Bajaj fitting 60mm Crankshaft (Page 4)
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Florence, OR
Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:37 pm quote
I put the SR-150 from Mercato on B-62. It fits - OK - and I only used the one tab to attach.

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Here is what I've done, just through the one attachment. So far so good. And the copper piece is just to deflect the exhaust out and away. JBWeld, not shoegoo. Ha!

20200920_112449_resized.jpg
The other side to show clearance. It's not all tight to the frame for clearance, but it works...

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