Viscosity
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Hooked
GTS 300, Malaguti 150
Joined: 19 Nov 2018
Posts: 258
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:52 pm quote
my GTS 300 ie manual says 5W 40 oil should be used. My Vespa Service tech has been using 10W 40 for years w/o incident. Before I do my own oil changes with 5W 40 is using 10W okay?
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 38600
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:51 pm quote
Sorry to mention this (no I'm not really), but FFS you've been a member here long enough to realise that the Wiki section is for discussion of Wiki articles, NOT TO ASK QUESTIONS!

I'm getting fed up with moving nearly all Wiki posts to GD (or NSM) because members CAN'T READ!


Readme1st ! : Modern Vespa Wiki
Veni, Vidi, Posti
946
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 6042
Location: Acworth, GA
Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:02 pm quote
Youíll get differing opinions, but Iím of the mind that itís fine. More so if your local Vespa tech is willing to put his name on the line to ďvouchĒ for the choice you make. After all, if you had *him* do your service, itíd get 10w-40 and youíd be happy as a clam. Donít overthink it...

20w-50? ...no. But 10w vs 5w - not a huge difference when cold, and exactly the same viscosity once fully warmed up.
Ossessionato
LXV 150 3v ie. Midnight Blue (Sold)
Joined: 06 Dec 2010
Posts: 3363
Location: Bangkok
Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:52 pm quote
I'm too thick to answer this?
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2787
Location: East Anglia, The power house of the UK
Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:16 am quote
You mean you're too viscos!!
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2787
Location: East Anglia, The power house of the UK
Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:19 am quote
Re: Viscosity
RP Tech wrote:
my GTS 300 ie manual says 5W 40 oil should be used. My Vespa Service tech has been using 10W 40 for years w/o incident. Before I do my own oil changes with 5W 40 is using 10W okay?
As mentioned above, a 10-40 will be fine. My Kawasaki dealer where I bought my new GTS automatically puts 10-40 in the engines at service times. He didn't even know you're suppose to use a 5-40 so I wouldn't worry. At worst it will knock down your fuel economy slightly and reduce your power but it's so slight in a case like this that it's not worth worrying about.
Ossessionato
LXV 150 3v ie. Midnight Blue (Sold)
Joined: 06 Dec 2010
Posts: 3363
Location: Bangkok
Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:31 am quote
OK I'm not that thick.

At operating temperature the 5w-40 is the same as 10w-40. No difference. Well except at 0 deg C
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2787
Location: East Anglia, The power house of the UK
Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:12 am quote
waspmike wrote:
OK I'm not that thick.

At operating temperature the 5w-40 is the same as 10w-40. No difference. Well except at 0 deg C
In truth, when hot there is a very slight difference between the two (5-40 & 10-40) due to the extra additives that make a 10-40 more viscose at it's cold temperature. Of course, when cold there is a difference anyway because the 10 grade is thicker, more viscose due to the extra additives in it over a 5-40. According to it's actual grade, when hot, oil has to be within a certain heat viscosity range. This is not an exact viscosity, but just that, a range, an area where the oil must be at with it's viscosity when at the hot temperature of 100c. This range of viscosity is always measured at 100c. A thinner 5-40 will be nearer to the lower end of the '40' range because it has less viscosity index improvers to expand to maintain the oils viscosity when hot. But it will still be in the '40' range. Remember, it's also thinner when cold because it has fewer index improvers. So that oil is nearly always slightly thinner than a 10-40 when hot. The 10-40 will have lots more viscosity index improvers which as the oil heats up will expand to maintain the oil viscosity at it's cold flow rate and thickness. At 100c the 10-40 oil wil be nearer the top end of the viscosity range, above the 5-40. So this means the oil will be slightly thicker at it's normal operating temperature, but still in the '40' grade range. Remember too, that a thicker oil does not necessarily equate to better oil film strength. It also reduces the oil flow rate which increases heat and engine wear. Although in this case, it's minimal.
Molto Verboso
Vespa GTS300ie , Yamaha tricity & T-max 530
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 1157
Location: essex united kingdom
Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:38 am quote
Re: Viscosity
Stromrider wrote:
RP Tech wrote:
my GTS 300 ie manual says 5W 40 oil should be used. My Vespa Service tech has been using 10W 40 for years w/o incident. Before I do my own oil changes with 5W 40 is using 10W okay?
As mentioned above, a 10-40 will be fine. My Kawasaki dealer where I bought my new GTS automatically puts 10-40 in the engines at service times. He didn't even know you're suppose to use a 5-40 so I wouldn't worry. At worst it will knock down your fuel economy slightly and reduce your power but it's so slight in a case like this that it's not worth worrying about.
A few years ago when I had the 1st service done on my gts300 I did question the 10w-40 oil on service sheet , Was told the right oil would have been used , This was at the same dealer you go to .
Bet they donít even use fully synthetic

They also donít have anyway to balance small wheels after tyre change ( yes I did ask this question) Answer was they ď Donít fit on are machine ď
Really for a main Kawasaki/Piaggio dealer you would think they would have the correct information on oil grades and a adapter to fit there tyre machine thatís pretty poor
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2787
Location: East Anglia, The power house of the UK
Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:25 am quote
Yeah, I know. I don't go there for any service work. I'm ex-tech anyway and do all my own work. I took it there for it's first service only, and they hammed it up. Scratched my back wheel loads changing the hub oil, didn't spot a coolant leak and low coolant level, Insufficiently filled the engine oil, but at least with the grade of oil I specified (5-40 fully synthetic). Hammed up the nut and bolt check overtightening my exhaust downpipe stud nuts, bending the collar that holds it all together. Wasn't impressed. When time for it's annual service, out of interest I asked them what the cost was and they quoted me over £400!! They had added on loads of stuff that simply didn't need doing, and in fact it turned out they seemed to have a service schedule on the front desk that was being totally misread. I pointed out their errors and the price came down to £300, which is still far too much. I did the service myself as I was always intending to do and it cost me precisely £36 including all new 'o' rings, filter, oils etc. I did everything as per the book, as I always do even if it's not my own bike that's being serviced.

I think they are into selling bikes but the service side of it is pants, or used to be. It may have changed now because they have new techs onsite.
Molto Verboso
Vespa GTS300ie , Yamaha tricity & T-max 530
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 1157
Location: essex united kingdom
Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:20 am quote
I heard that one of the techs left as he did not like working on scooters just proper bikes

After the 1st service I have done all work myself on gts300 and quite enjoy doing it , Sometimes itís a pain like having to remove floor 3 times to finally solve ď That LeakĒ

The Yamaha dealer is good I have my t-max & Tricity serviced there annually.

Cost for t-max - Annual service + mot + brake fluid change + coolant change was £175 which I thought was pretty good , Tricity was slightly less for same items .
Hooked
GTS 300, Malaguti 150
Joined: 19 Nov 2018
Posts: 258
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:43 pm quote
I've decided to use 5W 40 since it's specified and I prefer easier cold oil start ups. I also don't want the additives in the 10W.
Thanks for the input everybody.
Found scooter power 5W40 & OEM Filter.
Regards,Ralph

1587249554356809757751.jpg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
946
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 6042
Location: Acworth, GA
Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:51 pm quote
That's a mighty fine oil...can't go wrong there. Cheers!
Addicted
BV 350
Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 611
Location: Nebraska
Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:18 am quote
Actually
I believe the original statement in the tag line was "I'd rather have a free bottle in front of me than a prefrontal lobotomy", but really a nitpick.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Lx 50 4T, GTS 250, S 150 (Missing in KS), Something Chinese, GT 200 (sold)
Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 8445
Location: KS USA
Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:24 am quote
I use 5-40 year round. However my choice / brand of oil has come under some scrutiny by The Forum as of lately. Maybe it's time for me to rethink it.
Ossessionato
Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956 - Yamaha Majesty 250 DX 1998
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 3557
Location: Latina (Italy)
Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:27 am quote
Gradation is fine but nobody ever talks about API / JASO characteristic.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Lx 50 4T, GTS 250, S 150 (Missing in KS), Something Chinese, GT 200 (sold)
Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 8445
Location: KS USA
Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:33 am quote
Attila wrote:
Gradation is fine but nobody ever talks about API / JASO characteristic.
May I ask you to expound on that?
Ossessionato
Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956 - Yamaha Majesty 250 DX 1998
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 3557
Location: Latina (Italy)
Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:53 am quote
Max6200 wrote:
Attila wrote:
Gradation is fine but nobody ever talks about API / JASO characteristic.
May I ask you to expound on that?
https://www.bardahl.it/specifiche-lubrificanti-moto/

HOW TO CHOOSE THE RIGHT LUBRICANT FOR THE MOTORCYCLE
07/19/2017

Specifications of 4-stroke motorcycles and 2-stroke engines:
A specification is an abbreviation that provides information on the quality characteristics of the lubricant and its intended use. Each specification is associated with numerous tests (engine tests and laboratory tests) that the lubricant must pass to guarantee certain minimum performance requirements. The most common institutes that issue specifications for motorcycle lubricants are:
API: American Petroleum Institute
JASO: Japanese Automobile Standards
ISO: Standardization organization of the industrial organization

API specifications
The API specifications define three categories of lubricants identified with a two letter abbreviation. The first distinguishes the intended use: S: petrol vehicles for 4-stroke engines C: diesel vehicles T: petrol and diesel vehicles for 2-stroke engines. The API specifications for lubricants suitable for use in 4-stroke motorcycle engines are classified with the letter S. The letter following the first is progressive and corresponds in alphabetical order to the last phase of passing the specification of a specific lubricating oil or level of performance and protection. API SM is superior to API SL and so on. The API specifications for lubricants suitable for use in 2-stroke motorcycle engines are classified with the letter T. The letter that follows the first is progressive and corresponds in alphabetical order to the last phase of passing the specification of a specific lubricating oil or level of performance and protection. API TC is superior to API TB and so on.
Specifications JASO
The JASO classification is essentially based on the ability of the lubricant to allow the correct adherence between the clutch discs so that the driving torque can be transmitted from the engine to the gearbox without slipping. Through the measurement of 3 indices, DFI-SFI-STI, which evaluate how the transfer of the torque takes place in conditions of dynamic friction and static friction and the speed with which the transfer takes place, the lubricants can be classified into
JASO MA allow a high friction (suitable for wet clutches)
JASO MB allow less friction
Since the first issue of the JASO specifications, the MA class has been further divided into two classes, and will allow motorcycle manufacturers to request MA1 or MA2 class lubricants on their engines according to the greater or lesser ability of the clutch to control slipping. The lubricants passing from the three categories MB, MA1, MA2, offer progressively better anti-slip performance. Lubricants with JASO MB specifications are now starting to be requested by manufacturers on CVT automatic transmissions. motorcycle oil specific jaso
ISO specifications
The ISO classification embraces the JASO one and introduces further stricter tests that lubricants must pass, especially in terms of anti-pollution capacity and low smoke. motorcycle engine oil ISO specifications
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Lx 50 4T, GTS 250, S 150 (Missing in KS), Something Chinese, GT 200 (sold)
Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 8445
Location: KS USA
Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:35 am quote
Attila wrote:
Max6200 wrote:
Attila wrote:
Gradation is fine but nobody ever talks about API / JASO characteristic.
May I ask you to expound on that?
https://www.bardahl.it/specifiche-lubrificanti-moto/

HOW TO CHOOSE THE RIGHT LUBRICANT FOR THE MOTORCYCLE
07/19/2017

Specifications of 4-stroke motorcycles and 2-stroke engines:
A specification is an abbreviation that provides information on the quality characteristics of the lubricant and its intended use. Each specification is associated with numerous tests (engine tests and laboratory tests) that the lubricant must pass to guarantee certain minimum performance requirements. The most common institutes that issue specifications for motorcycle lubricants are:
API: American Petroleum Institute
JASO: Japanese Automobile Standards
ISO: Standardization organization of the industrial organization

API specifications
The API specifications define three categories of lubricants identified with a two letter abbreviation. The first distinguishes the intended use: S: petrol vehicles for 4-stroke engines C: diesel vehicles T: petrol and diesel vehicles for 2-stroke engines. The API specifications for lubricants suitable for use in 4-stroke motorcycle engines are classified with the letter S. The letter following the first is progressive and corresponds in alphabetical order to the last phase of passing the specification of a specific lubricating oil or level of performance and protection. API SM is superior to API SL and so on. The API specifications for lubricants suitable for use in 2-stroke motorcycle engines are classified with the letter T. The letter that follows the first is progressive and corresponds in alphabetical order to the last phase of passing the specification of a specific lubricating oil or level of performance and protection. API TC is superior to API TB and so on.
Specifications JASO
The JASO classification is essentially based on the ability of the lubricant to allow the correct adherence between the clutch discs so that the driving torque can be transmitted from the engine to the gearbox without slipping. Through the measurement of 3 indices, DFI-SFI-STI, which evaluate how the transfer of the torque takes place in conditions of dynamic friction and static friction and the speed with which the transfer takes place, the lubricants can be classified into
JASO MA allow a high friction (suitable for wet clutches)
JASO MB allow less friction
Since the first issue of the JASO specifications, the MA class has been further divided into two classes, and will allow motorcycle manufacturers to request MA1 or MA2 class lubricants on their engines according to the greater or lesser ability of the clutch to control slipping. The lubricants passing from the three categories MB, MA1, MA2, offer progressively better anti-slip performance. Lubricants with JASO MB specifications are now starting to be requested by manufacturers on CVT automatic transmissions. motorcycle oil specific jaso
ISO specifications
The ISO classification embraces the JASO one and introduces further stricter tests that lubricants must pass, especially in terms of anti-pollution capacity and low smoke. motorcycle engine oil ISO specifications
🌈 Thank you Attila. I am pretty sure the rest of the forum appreciates your input as wel.l
Hooked
S150, Beo 500ie
Joined: 14 Aug 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Bermuda
Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:55 am quote
I pay particular attention to JASO specs for two-stroke oil.

High-quality, low-soot oil is the only reason two-stroke engines are still available in the US at all. (That and, I suppose, catalytic converters, that I am not certain exists on my 2009 two-stroke.) They are amazing compared to the stuff we were using in the 1980s, when my trusty Honda Spree needed an exhaust cleanout every 1500 miles and suffered from obvious performance issues for the last 200 miles of that interval. Two-stroke outboard engines struggled with similar exhaust blockages due to soot and carbon buildup. Hardly anyone even talks about doing that maintenance any more. I had a shop handle mine, but apparently the home remedies involved cooking a muffler in a campfire or soaking its internals with oven cleaner.
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