Gear Case Oil (Motul)
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Member
MP3
Joined: 23 May 2020
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Location: Mentor Ohio
Fri May 29, 2020 5:44 pm quote
Hello All
Please forgive if this was addressed in another place. Planning to replace my gear oil (hub) and Purchased Motulís 80/90 mineral gear oil. It is Specíd for GL-4 and 5. I was not able to locate the Agip so I sourced this. I have used Motul products before and have been pleased. Your thoughts would be most appreciated (pro/con) on using this particular oil

Thank you

George
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Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
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Fri May 29, 2020 6:01 pm quote
good stuff. Motul is very good quality.
Member
MP3
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Location: Mentor Ohio
Fri May 29, 2020 7:35 pm quote
Thank you Sir.

George...
Hooked
50cc Beo, BigBeo
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Sat May 30, 2020 8:52 am quote
However you may pour anything to your final gear. Olive oil, engine oil, fake Motul engine oil, etc. The only true reason to change the oil in reductor is metal parts in it. If it is clear, you don't have reason to change it.
Hooked
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
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Sat May 30, 2020 9:15 am quote
Jah wrote:
However you may pour anything to your final gear. Olive oil, engine oil, fake Motul engine oil, etc. The only true reason to change the oil in reductor is metal parts in it. If it is clear, you don't have reason to change it.
Nothing could be further from the truth. You must use the proper grade GL-4 rated gear oil in a 80-W90 weight exclusively as specified in the service manual. GL-5 is NOT suitable as it is more corrosive due to the additives.

GL-4 is suitable for hypoid gear service when they are under severe service but are without shock loading. This is what Piaggio specs.

GL-5 is suitable for hypoid gear service under severe service and shock loads and not for use in a gearbox. NOT suitable for use in the MP3

Using anything else is asking for trouble.

And keep the olive oil where it belongs, in the kitchen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear_oil
Member
MP3
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Location: Mentor Ohio
Sat May 30, 2020 11:09 am quote
Hi Fellas

Thank you once again. I did use Motul GearBox 80w90 GL4/GL5 rated oil. I am thinking that there was never enough in the gear case from the get go. I believe the spec for volume is 250ml. There is no way that is how much came out. Wasnít extremely dirty but then again I only have about 1500 miles on the scooter. The level is now at the bottom of the highest graduation on the stick which I believe to be correct. Place I bought this from years ago is long gone and I donít think they had any real knowledge of piaggio anything but weíre trying to make some money. Well that is done now I have to do the coolant as that is original. Shout out to Corey for the help today!!
Hooked
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Sat May 30, 2020 11:57 am quote
Beware, a oil that is rated GL-4/GL-5 is a GL-5 oil and thus not the right choice for use in the MP3.

Additionally, don't be under the assumptions that GL-x oils with the highest ratings are the better oils. They are different oils for different purposes for different applications.

For the MP3, use a GL-4 only in a 80W-90 weight.
Member
MP3
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Location: Mentor Ohio
Sat May 30, 2020 1:10 pm quote
Hello Sbaert
Maybe I typed it incorrectly. The oil reads "API GL-4, GL-5 MIL-L 2105D. I have no idea what most of that means, sorry. I was just concentrating on the GL-4 which it seemed to be. Scoot is only lightly driven

Thank you

George
Hooked
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Sat May 30, 2020 1:27 pm quote
If the oil lists GL-5 then it is a GL-5 oil and it contains the additives that eat away at the soft metals like copper and brass.

FWIW, I use Repsol 80-W90 and is listed only as a GL-4 as specified by Piaggio.

https://www.repsol.com/imagenes/global/en/moto_transmisiones_80w90_tcm14-62446.pdf
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Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
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Sat May 30, 2020 2:23 pm quote
sbaert wrote:
If the oil lists GL-5 then it is a GL-5 oil and it contains the additives that eat away at the soft metals like copper and brass.

FWIW, I use Repsol 80-W90 and is listed only as a GL-4 as specified by Piaggio.

https://www.repsol.com/imagenes/global/en/moto_transmisiones_80w90_tcm14-62446.pdf
no you're wrong. its either or and can be used in gl-4 rated systems or gl-5 rated systems .

now if it was just gl-5 rating ONLY yes that is not to be used in a gl-4 system.
Hooked
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Sat May 30, 2020 2:52 pm quote
As a car mechanic, I can tell you that you wouldn't want to use a gear oil rated GL-4/GL-5 in a manual gearbox as the EP additives will eat away at the synchros.

Piaggio specs GL-4, thus I stick with a GL-4 only oil.
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Sat May 30, 2020 4:22 pm quote
sbaert wrote:
As a car mechanic, I can tell you that you wouldn't want to use a gear oil rated GL-4/GL-5 in a manual gearbox as the EP additives will eat away at the synchros.

Piaggio specs GL-4, thus I stick with a GL-4 only oil.
So you're saying the gearbox oil I have been using for the last ~45,600 miles will eventually lead to total destruction of my gearbox.


Noted.


Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
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Sat May 30, 2020 4:23 pm quote
sbaert wrote:
As a car mechanic, I can tell you that you wouldn't want to use a gear oil rated GL-4/GL-5 in a manual gearbox as the EP additives will eat away at the synchros.

Piaggio specs GL-4, thus I stick with a GL-4 only oil.
so are you worried about the synchros in the gear box of the scooter?

and can you provide a manufactures link to not use a GL-4/GL-5 in only a GL-4 rated system?
Member
MP3
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Location: Mentor Ohio
Sat May 30, 2020 5:27 pm quote
Guys, you are WAY more up on this stuff than I am and I am very appreciative of this dialogue back and forth. Thank you. Seems as though I made a mistake. The gearbox DOES NOT call for 250ml it calls for 250CC. I realize this could have really screwed up the system. Will drain it out and replace with the proper amount.

Seems like what I have will work.

Thank you fellas.

George...
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Sat May 30, 2020 5:36 pm quote
Gps wrote:
Guys, you are WAY more up on this stuff than I am and I am very appreciative of this dialogue back and forth. Thank you. Seems as though I made a mistake. The gearbox DOES NOT call for 250ml it calls for 250CC. I realize this could have really screwed up the system. Will drain it out and replace with the proper amount.

Seems like what I have will work.

Thank you fellas.

George...
Hey, before you drain it out, just in case you were serious, I just want you to know that 250mL is EXACTLY the same as 250CC.

Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sat May 30, 2020 5:37 pm quote
Madison Sully wrote:
Gps wrote:
Guys, you are WAY more up on this stuff than I am and I am very appreciative of this dialogue back and forth. Thank you. Seems as though I made a mistake. The gearbox DOES NOT call for 250ml it calls for 250CC. I realize this could have really screwed up the system. Will drain it out and replace with the proper amount.

Seems like what I have will work.

Thank you fellas.

George...
Hey, before you drain it out, just in case you were serious, I just want you to know that 250mL is EXACTLY the same as 250CC.

I totally get the chance you were just kidding, but, you know, posterity and all....

Member
MP3
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Location: Mentor Ohio
Sat May 30, 2020 5:41 pm quote
WAS NOT AWARE OF THAT!!! I can tell you that waht i drained out was far less than what I put back in??? Again, the machine only has 1500 miles on it and it is 13 years old. Sorry to be so green here fellas. I had no idea I would have to be doing the work on this bike. Finally got to the point that I can afford to have a shop do the work and now that has fallen through!!
Member
MP3
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Location: Mentor Ohio
Sat May 30, 2020 5:48 pm quote
I am looking at the owners manual that comes with the bike (MP3 250). It advises that the hub oil level when properly filled should just touch the second indicator. The oil level in mine now with what I believe to be the right amount is right at the fourth indicator. I must have too darn much oil in the gear case. No other explanation I think
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Sat May 30, 2020 5:52 pm quote
Gps wrote:
I am looking at the owners manual that comes with the bike (MP3 250). It advises that the hub oil level when properly filled should just touch the second indicator. The oil level in mine now with what I believe to be the right amount is right at the fourth indicator. I must have too darn much oil in the gear case. No other explanation I think
In the case of gear case oil, you are better off with too much than too little.
Too little, well, nothing good.
Too much, worst case there is an outlet drain that will allow it to escape.
Not great for the baby seals, but not bad for the scooter.
Moderaptor
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Sat May 30, 2020 5:54 pm quote
Gps wrote:
WAS NOT AWARE OF THAT!!!
It's so simple.

1 cc = 1ml = 1 gram of water at normal temperature and pressure.

1 kg of water = 1000 cc = 1000 ml = 1 litre - which is *very* approximately 1 US quart.

Now try that with fluid ounces (and define whether US or Imperial)...
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sat May 30, 2020 6:00 pm quote
jimc wrote:
Gps wrote:
WAS NOT AWARE OF THAT!!!
It's so simple.

1 cc = 1ml = 1 gram of water at normal temperature and pressure.

1 kg of water = 1000 cc = 1000 ml = 1 litre - which is *very* approximately 1 US quart.

Now try that with fluid ounces (and define whether US or Imperial)...
Yeah but that's water. This is oil. It's like asking which is heavier a pound of iron or a pound of feathers....

Oh.
Moderaptor
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Sat May 30, 2020 6:17 pm quote
But both cc's and ml's are measures of volume. Pretty much identical *whatever the fluid".

I recall from my childhood - my cousin wasn't that great at maths.

She was asked - "If you have six oranges and you take away two, how many do you have left?"

Long pause - the answer - "Four"

Now she was asked - "If you have six pencils and you take away two, how many do you have left?"

Longer pause - " I don't know, they aren't oranges."

Sometimes you just can't cope with the human mind...
Hooked
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Sat May 30, 2020 9:14 pm quote
sbaert wrote:
Nothing could be further from the truth.
I bet you've seen lots of scooters with engine oil in their final gear unit. And that oil is there because service manual says to do so.
Hooked
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
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Sun May 31, 2020 12:32 am quote
LMFAO. You American fellas always get tripped up when needing to deal with anything metric.

It'd be nice and to your benefit if you were to join the rest of the world when it comes to weights and measures.

As I've always said cups are for measuring bras and pints are for beers.

Last edited by sbaert on Sun May 31, 2020 12:34 am; edited 1 time in total
Hooked
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
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Location: Belgium
Sun May 31, 2020 12:33 am quote
Jah wrote:
sbaert wrote:
Nothing could be further from the truth.
I bet you've seen lots of scooters with engine oil in their final gear unit. And that oil is there because service manual says to do so.
I am a car mechanic, not a scooter mechanic but AFAIK Piaggio only specs gear oil in their vehicles.

Leave the olive oil for the salad dressing.
Hooked
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Sun May 31, 2020 3:58 am quote
Yep, at least one major manufacturer specs engine oil to be used in final gear reduction unit. Regarding olive oil, it really won't harm metal. Because no additives in gear oil is better than wrong additives.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 6012
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Sun May 31, 2020 4:41 am quote
jimc wrote:
But both cc's and ml's are measures of volume. Pretty much identical *whatever the fluid".

I recall from my childhood - my cousin wasn't that great at maths.

She was asked - "If you have six oranges and you take away two, how many do you have left?"

Long pause - the answer - "Four"

Now she was asked - "If you have six pencils and you take away two, how many do you have left?"

Longer pause - " I don't know, they aren't oranges."

Sometimes you just can't cope with the human mind...
I was sorta joking up there. Metric and I get along super duper.
Hooked
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Sun May 31, 2020 5:23 am quote
Jah wrote:
Yep, at least one major manufacturer specs engine oil to be used in final gear reduction unit. Regarding olive oil, it really won't harm metal. Because no additives in gear oil is better than wrong additives.
That one manufacturer must still be living in the World War 2 days. Possibly URAL I'm guessing, as their bikes are essentially WW2 relics.
Hooked
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Sun May 31, 2020 5:46 am quote
No, a major manufacturer, one of most famous maxiscoots... Can you believe?
Hooked
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Sun May 31, 2020 5:50 am quote
Jah wrote:
No, a major manufacturer, one of most famous maxiscoots... Can you believe?
Well, who is it? Or is that classified information?
Hooked
50cc Beo, BigBeo
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Sun May 31, 2020 6:30 am quote
Google for Honda Silver Wing 600 service manual. Go to section 11. Seek for recommended oil and tell the class what you've seen there.
Ossessionato
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
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Sun May 31, 2020 10:49 am quote
well my 3 cents WSM of the fuoco says API GL3

the 14 till 18 model says API GL4

The HPE needs GL5

All the same bearings gears and axles on all those engines

Think olive oil is also good enough
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
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Sun May 31, 2020 12:58 pm quote
Maksor wrote:
well my 3 cents WSM of the fuoco says API GL3

the 14 till 18 model says API GL4

The HPE needs GL5

All the same bearings gears and axles on all those engines

Think olive oil is also good enough
now we have someone who has done the numbers and research. EXCELLENT MAKSOR.
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2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
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Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:28 am quote
My Burgman 400's required engine oil of 10/40 semi synthetic type to be used in the final drive hub. Not gear oil of any kind. The reason for that was due to the materials used in the hub. Engine oil was determined to make them last longer as there was no extreme pressure on the gears or bearings.

My Vespa GTS requires gear oil 250ml of GL4. The same as the op's bike. I'd personally stick with GL4 if your manual says that. You must not use engine oil. A gear oil that says it meets the dual GL4 & GL5 specs is ok in some instances but is not always suitable for every gearbox/hub in some circumstances. It just depends on what materials are in the gearbox/hub. Probably ok in our final drive hubs though as to my knowledge there are no brass components in any of them, and certainly not in my bike.
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Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:36 am quote
Jah wrote:
However you may pour anything to your final gear. Olive oil, engine oil, fake Motul engine oil, etc. The only true reason to change the oil in reductor is metal parts in it. If it is clear, you don't have reason to change it.
WRONG!!
Gears are harder on oil than the running engine.
Gears cause Oil Shear, which is literally cutting or smashing the polymers a part.

Stays clean, but breaks down.
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2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
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Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:11 am quote
This.../\/\...and even straight cut gears, as is our hubs do this.
Hooked
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Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:28 am quote
Does that happen in gearbox of traditional motorcycles? If so, are those gearboxes harder to oil than our final gears?
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 500
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Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:22 am quote
Olive oil is not so good. None of the vegetable oils are. They polymerize in the presence of oxygen and turn into glue. As an amateur clock repairman, I've had many clocks that were oiled with vegetable oil- they work OK for a week and then stop forevermore.
Use the recommended oil for your gearbox.
Hooked
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Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:03 am quote
Not any plant oil polymerizes. Some are called "drying" (I am not totally sure about the English term) - they really do oxydize and polymerize. Like flax seed oil.
Other plant oils don't do that even at lots of air and sunlight. Like castor oil (which was used instead of brake fluid and machine oil in ancient times)
Don't take too serious my words about olive oil. But engine oil is totally OK: if it is OK for gearbox, than it is OK for axles and gears without left foot lever.
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Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:00 am quote
Jah wrote:
Not any plant oil polymerizes. Some are called "drying" (I am not totally sure about the English term) - they really do oxydize and polymerize. Like flax seed oil.
Other plant oils don't do that even at lots of air and sunlight. Like castor oil (which was used instead of brake fluid and machine oil in ancient times)
Don't take too serious my words about olive oil. But engine oil is totally OK: if it is OK for gearbox, than it is OK for axles and gears without left foot lever.
No, you must not use engine oil in the rear hub. It will cause damage to the gears and bearings of a Vespa. It doesn't have the anti wear agents in it that gear oil has.

Motorcycle engines with the gearbox encased within the crankcase is something quite different. They are designed to operate on a different oil (lubed by the engine oil) and operate in a completely different environment to rear hub gears. The gears in that type of motorcycle engine unit mash up the engine oil very quickly and contribute to the fact that motorcycle engine oil has to be changed very often. Hub oil can normally go a very long time between being changed out as the hub oil is better at lubricating the gears and bearings, and it is not contaminated with engine blow by products such as carbon and petrol, acid etc.
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