Gear Case Oil (Motul)
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Hooked
50cc Beo, BigBeo
Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 211
Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:24 am quote
Why can't I use it in Piaggio, but must use in Honda's maxiscoots? Do you consider the bearings and axles to be much different in their final reductors?
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2763
Location: East Anglia, The power house of the UK
Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:38 am quote
You must not use engine oil in the Piaggio rear hub because Piaggio tells you not to use it. There is a reason for it and that will be because of the type of gears they are using, the type of materials used, and the type of finish and hardening that has been applied to those gears and bearings. The fact that other models in the range might use a different oil is because different factors apply, and owners should always adhere to what the manual says.

The Honda scooters you mention will without doubt be using different gears types and materials, and have been harden and finished differently to the Piaggio gear and bearing sets. That is why there is a difference. Never ever diverse from what the manual says concerning the type of oil to use in your various bike bits. Using bike ENGINE oil in your Piaggio will shorten the life of the gears and particularly the bearings.
Hooked
50cc Beo, BigBeo
Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 211
Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:03 am quote
Possibly you don't realize that none of bike manufacturers produce bearings. More: none bearings are dedicated to be used in only one type of oil. That's checked simply: you just disassemble your final gears of your Honda and your Piaggio, pull the bearings from them and watch for brand names on them: NTN, SKF, and so on.

If you never did that, you might either trust someone who did (like me), or just stay unfaithful, but please, please don't tell to that person that bearings are differently processed on Honda's factory and Piaggio's factory (not saying that Piaggio used Honda's engines in some maxiscooters). By the way, could be interesting to compare requirements: same engine was used, as far as I remember, in Forza and X9 250.
Ossessionato
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 4163
Location: Netherlands Olst
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:15 am quote
yes the older 250 was a puch engine before the Quasar 250/300

the leader is still based on that engine
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 8482
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:37 am quote
Jah wrote:
Possibly you don't realize that none of bike manufacturers produce bearings. More: none bearings are dedicated to be used in only one type of oil. That's checked simply: you just disassemble your final gears of your Honda and your Piaggio, pull the bearings from them and watch for brand names on them: NTN, SKF, and so on.

If you never did that, you might either trust someone who did (like me), or just stay unfaithful, but please, please don't tell to that person that bearings are differently processed on Honda's factory and Piaggio's factory (not saying that Piaggio used Honda's engines in some maxiscooters). By the way, could be interesting to compare requirements: same engine was used, as far as I remember, in Forza and X9 250.
FYI: Honda Automotive uses motor oil in lots of their manual transmissions too, while most cars manufactures use gear oil. So it is something Honda engineers for.
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2763
Location: East Anglia, The power house of the UK
Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:36 am quote
Jah wrote:
Possibly you don't realize that none of bike manufacturers produce bearings. More: none bearings are dedicated to be used in only one type of oil. That's checked simply: you just disassemble your final gears of your Honda and your Piaggio, pull the bearings from them and watch for brand names on them: NTN, SKF, and so on.

If you never did that, you might either trust someone who did (like me), or just stay unfaithful, but please, please don't tell to that person that bearings are differently processed on Honda's factory and Piaggio's factory (not saying that Piaggio used Honda's engines in some maxiscooters). By the way, could be interesting to compare requirements: same engine was used, as far as I remember, in Forza and X9 250.
Hi Jah,

Yes, I do realise what you are saying. I designed and developed engines and transmissions for 18 years and have been a master tech for 33 years. Retired now so I have much time to ride my Vespa...lol.

Bearing manufacturers make bearings for all bikes and car manufacturers. As you say, few manufacturers of bikes make their own bearings, although some actually do for some limited applications. Manufacturers and designers also specify how they want their bearings to work and what materials to be used. The materials being used often dictates how the bearings are treated during manufacturing and how they are finished. This will govern the bearing life cycle duration and general performance. It's actually quite a feat of engineering to get it exactly right by designer, engineers and manufacturers all working as a team.

Just for information, two bearings that are exactly the same size in every way with the same dimensions, with the same size rollers or balls can be very different. They can be made from different materials, hardened differently, finished differently. They will therefore have different load capacity and different durability ratings. Unless a bearing has the exact same part number, it may be different. Even the grease with which a bearing is packed with can alter significantly it's load and durability rating.

But it's the gears as much as anything that depend on the proper oil being used. Gears differ in exactly the same way as bearings. Two similar looking gears can be very different in their requirements for lubrication because of how they have been made, materials used, hardening and finishing can be different. Use the wrong oil and the gears can have quite a shortened life. One of the ways this will shortens the life of the bearings is because if the wrong oil is used the gears will shed metal and this metal gets into the bearings causing damage.

Never use any oil in any gearbox or rear hub that is not specified by the manufacturer. They know what the specs are for the components used. You don't. Some Suzuki's and Honda's do use engine oil in the transmission hubs, even some Piaggio bikes now. But you must follow exactly what the owners manual says regarding which oil to use. Get it wrong and you will shorten the life of the gearbox or hub.

I speak from experience of specifying bearings for the engines and transmissions that I designed and working with Metallurgists and Tribologists for 18 years.
Ossessionato
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 4163
Location: Netherlands Olst
Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:01 am quote
a scooter doesn't have a gearbox only a reduction gearing, a axle with a sprocket another sprocket and a axle with a sprocket again straight teeth

very simple

a gearbox does have cone shaped teeth shifting mechanism and other stuff

in my earlier post you can use any GL oil 3 80/90 4 or 5
the reduction gears and bearings are all the same for all model years

i think if you look even futher back to a X9 it will say even a different oil
then GL 3

Look at light quads there earlier Yamaha's did have grease in them now the put in a extra seal, and the put oil in it same parts
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2763
Location: East Anglia, The power house of the UK
Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:17 am quote
Maksor wrote:
a scooter doesn't have a gearbox only a reduction gearing, a axle with a sprocket another sprocket and a axle with a sprocket again straight teeth

very simple

a gearbox does have cone shaped teeth shifting mechanism and other stuff

in my earlier post you can use any GL oil 3 80/90 4 or 5
the reduction gears and bearings are all the same for all model years

i think if you look even futher back to a X9 it will say even a different oil
then GL 3

Look at light quads there earlier Yamaha's did have grease in them now the put in a extra seal, and the put oil in it same parts
Yes good information from you Maksor.

But don't forget that you don't need a shifting mechanism with cones and hubs to denote it as a gearbox.

Gearbox refers to any item that transfers power and that has gears in it. That's all any gearbox has to be. We are playing on words here of course but need to be clear for newbies. Our scooters have rear hubs that contain gears. It's officially a final drive gearbox, often referred to as the rear hub gearbox.
Hooked
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 206
Location: Belgium
Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:08 am quote
Exactly, play on words. Why is it so hard for some people to just follow what the manufacturer specifies?

Unless you've got a validation lab worth a few million, leave these decisions up to the people that engineered the product.

In other words, if the bike calls for GL4 in X weight then use GL4 exclusively and nothing else. If it calls for GL5, use GL5.

Why reinvent the wheel on something so simple?

And as I said earlier, olive oil has no business being in or around a vehicle of any type.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 5994
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:13 am quote
sbaert wrote:
And as I said earlier, olive oil has no business being in or around a vehicle of any type.
Pff, nonsense. I put olive oil in my car almost every time I buy it.

Hooked
2009 MP3 400
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 184
Location: Sayre, PA
Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:24 am quote
The word of the day is "Tribologist".
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 5994
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:53 am quote
pmatulew wrote:
The word of the day is "Tribologist".
I'm one, too.

Actually I'm a metallurgist and tribologist both.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 8482
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:56 am quote
Madison Sully wrote:
pmatulew wrote:
The word of the day is "Tribologist".
I'm one, too.

Actually I'm a metallurgist and tribologist both.
There is a joke there, I just can't think of it right now.
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 38566
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:46 am quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
Madison Sully wrote:
pmatulew wrote:
The word of the day is "Tribologist".
I'm one, too.

Actually I'm a metallurgist and tribologist both.
There is a joke there, I just can't think of it right now.
The Wikipedia definition is - um - open to misinterpretation:
Tribology is the science and engineering of interacting surfaces in relative motion. It includes the study and application of the principles of friction, lubrication, and wear.
Hooked
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 206
Location: Belgium
Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:27 am quote
Madison Sully wrote:
Pff, nonsense. I put olive oil in my car almost every time I buy it.

How is that warranty engine replacement claim coming along?
Ossessionato
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 4163
Location: Netherlands Olst
Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:06 pm quote
sbaert wrote:
Exactly, play on words. Why is it so hard for some people to just follow what the manufacturer specifies?

Unless you've got a validation lab worth a few million, leave these decisions up to the people that engineered the product.

In other words, if the bike calls for GL4 in X weight then use GL4 exclusively and nothing else. If it calls for GL5, use GL5.

Why reinvent the wheel on something so simple?

And as I said earlier, olive oil has no business being in or around a vehicle of any type.
maybe because a manufactor makes deals with other manufactors Piaggio did have a deal with Eni for oil for several years they could get it cheaper by advicing it in there workshopmanual later it was castrol then Eni again now on the Hpe the Eni sticker is of the bike again don't know what they are using now but i do know if the GL4 or 5 isn't availble they will put in GL3 stopping production is more expensive
The same with Tyres piaggio reconmend Michelin but also delivered mp3's with pirelli GTS 23 and 24 in the back also Dunlop when the france where on strike

look it up in the workshopmanuals the Fouco needs GL3 same part- numbers as your ABS / asr version that needs GL4 and also the same as the hpe where GL5 is recomanded the master engine is designed in 1998 first used in 2001 as a 459cc on a beverly 500 gl3 wasn't even invented then but the reduction unit was
Molto Verboso
2018 LIBERTY 150S, 2013 Kymco LIKE200iLX
Joined: 26 Jul 2013
Posts: 1134
Location: Ohio
Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:27 pm quote
Jah wrote:
Google for Honda Silver Wing 600 service manual. Go to section 11. Seek for recommended oil and tell the class what you've seen there.
NSS Forza 300, as well.
"NAIH"
O.S.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 5994
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:02 pm quote
sbaert wrote:
Madison Sully wrote:
Pff, nonsense. I put olive oil in my car almost every time I buy it.

How is that warranty engine replacement claim coming along?
Sold the car with ~256,000 miles on it running just fine. Original engine, and transmission.
Hooked
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 206
Location: Belgium
Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:04 pm quote
The recommended oil brand is far less important as long it meets the proper spec.

As I stated before, I am a car mechanic and I know for a fact on US bound vehicles Mercedes puts a "Mercedes recommends Mobil1" sticker inside the engine compartment even though said engine was filled at the factory in Germany with Fuchs oil who is the primary fluids supplier.

It is just that MB USA has a tie up with Mobil USA hence the sticker and thus they get their promotion by way of a $.02 sticker.

That sticker is absent from the same car in Euro spec form.

But as I stated, keep the same spec of the fluid in question and you're fine.
Hooked
2009 Vespa GTS300 S
Joined: 28 Nov 2017
Posts: 202
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:00 pm quote
Well my 2009 GTS300 Super's manual (printed 2008) specifies hub oil with a higher spec than API GL3.

So my one is the special fool proof one in that I can put GL4, GL5 and GL"ad infinitum" in. Sweet!!

Maybe we'll get so green that GL"ad infinitum" might just turn out to be olive oil!!



huboil.JPG

Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 5994
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:04 pm quote
NZscoot wrote:
Well my 2009 GTS300 Super's manual (printed 2008) specifies hub oil with a higher spec than API GL3.

So my one is the special fool proof one in that I can put GL4, GL5 and GL"ad infinitum" in. Sweet!!

Maybe we'll get so green that GL"ad infinitum" might just be olive oil!!

I'm pretty sure GL specs aren't in numerical order of increasing quality.
In other words, GL-5 is not necessarily any "better" than GL-4. It's just different; suited for different purpose anyway.
Hooked
2009 Vespa GTS300 S
Joined: 28 Nov 2017
Posts: 202
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:12 pm quote
Madison Sully wrote:
NZscoot wrote:
Well my 2009 GTS300 Super's manual (printed 2008) specifies hub oil with a higher spec than API GL3.

So my one is the special fool proof one in that I can put GL4, GL5 and GL"ad infinitum" in. Sweet!!

Maybe we'll get so green that GL"ad infinitum" might just be olive oil!!

I'm pretty sure GL specs aren't in numerical order of increasing quality.
In other words, GL-5 is not necessarily any "better" than GL-4. It's just different; suited for different purpose anyway.
https://www.rymax-lubricants.com/blog/the-differences-between-gl-4-and-gl-5/
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 5994
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:22 pm quote
NZscoot wrote:
Madison Sully wrote:
NZscoot wrote:
Well my 2009 GTS300 Super's manual (printed 2008) specifies hub oil with a higher spec than API GL3.

So my one is the special fool proof one in that I can put GL4, GL5 and GL"ad infinitum" in. Sweet!!

Maybe we'll get so green that GL"ad infinitum" might just be olive oil!!

I'm pretty sure GL specs aren't in numerical order of increasing quality.
In other words, GL-5 is not necessarily any "better" than GL-4. It's just different; suited for different purpose anyway.
https://www.rymax-lubricants.com/blog/the-differences-between-gl-4-and-gl-5/
Yes, exactly, thank you.
Member
2008 MP3 500
Joined: 25 Apr 2020
Posts: 15
Location: NorCal
Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:50 am quote
Royal Purple 75w90 Gear Oil
So according to their site, Royal Purple's 75w90 Max Gear Oil is certified for both GL-4/GL-5:

"Max Gear 75W-90 is recommended for use in truck and automotive front or rear differentials, manual transmissions and lower gear units of marine engines that specify the use of an API GL-5 or GL-4 fluid. It is non-corrosive to soft yellow metals (brass, bronze, copper, etc.) and synchronizer safe."

https://royalpurpledirect.com/max-gear-75w-90-synthetic-gear-oil/

Non-corrosive! I think we have a winner...

(At least I hope so for my 2008 MP3 500!)
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 8482
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:09 am quote
Most synthetic gears oils are GL-4/GL-5 rated. Don't remember specs on dino oil as I don't use the stuff.
Lurker
2K9 MP3 500
Joined: 17 Apr 2020
Posts: 1
Location: Irving, TX
Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:25 pm quote
Gosh. It's turning out to be an oil thread lol

This is what I use:
Walmart Supertech 75W-90 Full Synthetic GL-5

Yes I am cheap

I don't think there is any bronze/copper material inside the MP3's rear diff to mandate the use of GL-4.
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