Kubler Speedring GTS 300 HPE
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Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
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Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:48 pm quote
Mike Holland wrote:
Hundreds (thousands?) of GTS owners have fitted the Malossi V4 kit which makes their scooters slightly more powerful than the HPE. Hundreds have also fitted the Malossi ForceMaster ECU override which pushes the rev limit up by another 1000 rpm.

I have never heard of any problems caused by over-revving as a result of these mods.
Hi Mike,

Yes, the Malossi kits are great. Lots & lots have been fitted & they haven't caused any issues yet that we know of. It's worth remembering these kits are racing kits. As yet I don't know anyone who has put more than 23,000 miles on the clock with one of those kits. They were never actually designed for road use as they do stress out the motor more than a factory engine design engineer would be willing to accept for mass production. And that includes me. Therefore, a tamer version as on the HPE made sense for Piaggio. But aftermarket stuff on the earlier GTS motors isn't necessarily a good marker for how a newly developed & largely upgraded HPE engine will behave overtime in the future with a kublar on it.

Any manufacturer has to be cautious with its upgrades such as this and that's why the rev limiter engages so early. After all, imagine what we'd all be saying if lots of us bought the HPE only to find its motor flying apart on a regular basis. Piaggios name would be mud!

So as above, not saying the kublar ring is a bad thing. Owners should however be fully aware of possible consequences reference warranty. Dealers seem happy to sell them, but I wonder how long that enthusiasm will last if issues with warranty occur. I notice some dealers don't even seem to know how the ring works. Even some of the suppliers of the ring are not explaining correctly how the ring works. There is NO SPEED LIMITER for example. Only the rev limiter. The two things are in fact different in engineering terms.

I've only posted in response to questions being asked & have tried to shed some light on all this from the engineering point of view. It's up to folks to make of it what they will. Folks with the ring will hopefully keep us all up to date with how well their bikes are going. I suspect most folks won't experience any issues. Enjoy!
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
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Location: East Anglia, a dryer region of the UK than Israel
Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:56 am quote
Bueller wrote:
Stromrider - I generally find your posts about engines to be interesting and thought provoking. Iíve been building engines and transmissions (and a host of other things) since the early Ď80ís and am a six time certified Master Tech, though no longer professionally. Based on that, unless design engineers at Piaggio have specifically told you the speed limiter was put in place because the engine canít handle higher revs i think your post is highly speculative. As you know, even with the Kubler ring installed the engine still has a rev limiter. It is not reliant upon the speed limiter to protect the engine from over rev. Furthermore, due to variance in RPM at any fixed speed based solely on throttle input and angle of climb or descent (characteristics inherent in the CVT design) attempting to protect an engine from over rev based on vehicle speed instead of engine speed would be both ineffective and silly.

Iíd like to see some proof to back up your theory. Otherwise I remain convinced the speed limiter has nothing to do with engine protection, and has more to do with the fact that large frame Vespas have always had a top speed in the neighborhood of 75 mph. Realizing this version had enough power to go significantly faster Piaggio programmed in a speed limiting function.
I don't disagree with some of the points you make Bueller. In fact we do agree on many things. However, as you will know there is no speed limiter fitted to the GTS bikes of any era. Strictly speaking in engineering terms speed limiters are quite different to rev limiters.

For example, in the UK and europe all trucks have a speed limiter. This mean the engine revs are not affected, for example when the truck is revving out to max when climbing a hill. The speed limiter lets the motor develop full power which is a requirement to haul heavy loads. This is why a speed limiter is used instead of using the rev limiter which would reduce power of the engine and make it less effect as a load hauler. However, the speed limiter WILL engage the minute the truck hits the predetermined road speed set by the manufacturer or company concerned. The truck cannot go faster than this predetermined speed. If the truck over speeds going down hill the truck will automatically engage a transmission brake and/or engage the vehicle brakes to maintain the predetermined set speed. The truck of course still has a rev limiter to protect the engine should the driver start to over rev the motor going up hill with a heavy load in a lower gear below the speed limiter preset speed.

Piaggio has lowered the rev limit on the HPE for all the reasons I previously mention in earlier posts. I too have designed and developed engines for years, am a master tech and these deductions are my own based upon studying the HPE motor, and what I know actually happens when engines like this are developed. I was at a show in Geneva some years ago and was told be a Piaggio engineer who worked on the GTS motors some years ago that there is limited scope to develop the motor to produce more power as the crankcases are not up to handling too much extra power. I agree with that and is a main reason the motor is kept to a limited speed. You cannot mass produce an engine with power and speed that is likely to make it a grenade at some point in it's life.

The HPE is a great bike, it's engine is not fragile, but it's design and development team have been very prudent to keep the speed down with the rev limiter for a long life. The more power and speed you take out of a motor like this, the faster it wears out and the more prone to mechanical issues it can be. And as I said the stability of the bike also does come into it at some level. They don't want folks to get into trouble with the smaller wheels at high speeds. And I repeat, I'm not saying don't fit the ring. I'm just responding to questions posed in this thread and trying to make sure folks know what they are doing and why it could reflect on the warranty under some circumstances. As I previously said, folks can make of it what they will. Always nice to talk with you Bueller.
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Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:03 pm quote
Well I got it to make my speed-o correct, not go faster.
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2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
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Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:01 am quote
Yep, but be careful WEB-Tech. You will lose the up to 10% factory over read put there by the manufacturer under international law to prevent you getting a ticket, which in reality could mean that some days you will likely be going faster than you are actually being told by your speedo. Few bikes actually have a 10% over read. And if they do it's because of lots of variables.

For the benefit of folks who don't know, your speedo reading accuracy will vary from day to day, season to season. Huge variables like ambient temperature, tyre wear, rider weight, how much fuel you have on board, tyre pressures etc etc (there are more but can't speak of them here as it's technical), and indeed the speed at which you are riding all make the speedo read differently from day to day. Speedos even read differently at the start and end of a journey and this alone can amount to a difference of several percent under some circumstances depending on ambient temp. Some of these variable only make a small difference, but some make a very big difference.

My GTS has on average a 3-5% over read. It varies depending on the speed at which I ride and for how long, plus all the other variables that we all suffer. At 60mph I'm actually doing 57-58mph. It's always been that way. All my bikes are and have been quite accurate with their speedo reading.

From what I've been told by an agent selling the Kublar ring, it definitely removes the up to 10% over read put there by the manufacturers under international law (to prevent you getting a ticket), so it will move your speedo reading nearer to accuracy, some days! There is a but though! If an HPE bike is similar to my GTS, and it likely will be, with a Kublar ring fitted and from what I'm being told about this ring, you may find your speedo will be under reading by quite some way on some occasions and you will likely get a ticket as some point. 60mph reading could be 65mph or more in reality if the variables conspire against you. Most folks don't know how to test their speedo for accuracy. They think you just hook up your cell phone with a gps speed reader on it and do the test. It doesn't actually work like that and is much more involved. You want more than just a snap shot. Testing takes several hours to get an accurate reading doing it that way as your speedo accuracy can vary at the start and finish of each journey. It will vary again the next day, or the next month or whenever the weather or temperature changes. It can increase or decrease in accuracy by several percent. I see on here folks claiming their speedo is 10% out. It might have been that day under those circumstances that prevailed just then. But 10% is actually quite a rare figure, it's normally not that much and usually around half that figure on modern bikes. And of course, some bikes are worse than others. Also the owner is maybe not checking tyre pressures or is running them at the wrong pressures or tyres are worn. It can indicate other issues too.

So if you fit a Kublar don't take it for granted the speedo is going to be accurate. Accurate speedo readings really don't exist on road bikes inspite of what some folks say.
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Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:48 am quote
Stromrider wrote:
Yep, but be careful WEB-Tech. You will lose the up to 10% factory over read put there by the manufacturer under international law to prevent you getting a ticket, which in reality could mean that some days you will likely be going faster than you are actually being told by your speedo. Few bikes actually have a 10% over read. And if they do it's because of lots of variables.

For the benefit of folks who don't know, your speedo reading accuracy will vary from day to day, season to season. Huge variables like ambient temperature, tyre wear, rider weight, how much fuel you have on board, tyre pressures etc etc (there are more but can't speak of them here as it's technical), and indeed the speed at which you are riding all make the speedo read differently from day to day. Speedos even read differently at the start and end of a journey and this alone can amount to a difference of several percent under some circumstances depending on ambient temp. Some of these variable only make a small difference, but some make a very big difference.

My GTS has on average a 3-5% over read. It varies depending on the speed at which I ride and for how long, plus all the other variables that we all suffer. At 60mph I'm actually doing 57-58mph. It's always been that way. All my bikes are and have been quite accurate with their speedo reading.

From what I've been told by an agent selling the Kublar ring, it definitely removes the up to 10% over read put there by the manufacturers under international law (to prevent you getting a ticket), so it will move your speedo reading nearer to accuracy, some days! There is a but though! If an HPE bike is similar to my GTS, and it likely will be, with a Kublar ring fitted and from what I'm being told about this ring, you may find your speedo will be under reading by quite some way on some occasions and you will likely get a ticket as some point. 60mph reading could be 65mph or more in reality if the variables conspire against you. Most folks don't know how to test their speedo for accuracy. They think you just hook up your cell phone with a gps speed reader on it and do the test. It doesn't actually work like that and is much more involved. You want more than just a snap shot. Testing takes several hours to get an accurate reading doing it that way as your speedo accuracy can vary at the start and finish of each journey. It will vary again the next day, or the next month or whenever the weather or temperature changes. It can increase or decrease in accuracy by several percent. I see on here folks claiming their speedo is 10% out. It might have been that day under those circumstances that prevailed just then. But 10% is actually quite a rare figure, it's normally not that much and usually around half that figure on modern bikes. And of course, some bikes are worse than others. Also the owner is maybe not checking tyre pressures or is running them at the wrong pressures or tyres are worn. It can indicate other issues too.

So if you fit a Kublar don't take it for granted the speedo is going to be accurate. Accurate speedo readings really don't exist on road bikes inspite of what some folks say.
This is fascinating! I had no idea. Cruising to and from a nearby town last night, I needed my speedo to read 77 to keep up with traffic on a 70 mph highway. I doubt the cars ahead of me were going spot on 70...it's more likely they were doing 72-75 mph (there were times I was up to an indicated 80). I'm guessing my HPE is more like 5% off, but I'm too lazy to do the math to figure it out.
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Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:21 pm quote
Greetings:

Whether the speedometer is fed its information by a mechanical cable or a digital input, the speed indicated is the translation of the number of wheel revolutions per second. What varies is the distance covered in a wheel revolution. As has been pointed out, the tires stretch - thus gain in circumference - as you go faster. In my own direct observation HERE the error varies from a high of 20% at very low speed to about 9% at ISO's top speed of 72.

An earlier, cruder evaluation can be found by searching SpeedOptimism. HERE
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2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
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Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:00 am quote
Absolutely Wheelman-111. I note some of the earlier GTS bikes with mechnically driven speedos are less accurate than the digital units used on the 2014 onwards bikes. They do seem to fluctuate much more due mostly to speedo head errors.

When developing engines for new bikes and cars we recalibrated the speedos each day for each individual rider or drivers weight. This was done by using the time and speed over distance method. GPS was too inaccurate in those days. It has since improved somewhat but is still not totally accurate for road use.
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Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:41 am quote
I got one of these from PM tuning and had AF1 put it on when my 2020HPE Supertech (digital speedo thatíll record top speed) was 2 weeks old along with an Akrapovic. Before it went to 74mph (maybe 75 but then it cakes right down to 74). After, it maxes at 80mph (likewise, maybe 81 for an instance then back down). I love it.
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Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:50 pm quote
Kubler ring on 2020 GTS300HPE Super in Australia
Hi

I have fitted the Kubler speed ring to my 2020 GTS300HPE.

Mine is labelled a "Super" - assembled in Vietnam mid 2020, shipped to Australia June 2020.

Odometer is ~1200km (750mi) , first service just done. Tyres are Pirelli Angel Scooter in stock size: 130/70 12


In GPS test runs - both dealer and me - no discernable change to GPS max speed from before to after fitment
- GTS ran to over 125kmh (78mph) with and without the speed ring - it had more to go but running out of road on this test.
- GPS and speedo now agree to within 1kmh - amazing accuracy (let's see after a bit more tyre wear)
- Indicated speed is now lower of course ... so it kinda feels like I've slowed down
- Acceleration in the (now accurate) 100-110kmh band is the same sluggish rate as when the speedo overread (then reading 120-130kmh)

Our conclusion is that my Vietnam assembled, Australian delivered GTS300HPE Super doesn't have a speedlimiter. This seems different to the HPE Supertech where the speed ring did see a higher top speed on the GPS, according to the dealer.

I'm a bit disappointed, as I was hoping to be able to get a bit of a boost in the critical 100-120kmh band (very useful on our 110kmh freeways).

That said, it's a tight new motor still I'll see what happens as the motor frees up a bit more.

I am, however, VERY pleased to have a reliably accurate speedo - my small city is infested with speed camera vans, so knowing I'm "legal" is important. There's also some consolation that, as the speed ring hasn't changed the motor's limits, there's no new issue with motor stress.
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Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:43 am quote
Caroanbill, that's a great report. Thanks!

Although your bike does not have a speed limiter (non of them do), it does have a rev limiter. Those two things are different. Yours, with the Kublar won't be engaging until the bike is past it's maximum design revs. Without the ring that would be about 75-76mph. With the ring that's increased to over 80mph. Because your bike is new, and as you say still tight, it won't be hitting it's maximum power or speed yet. It takes about 1500 miles before the engine is run-in and able to do that.
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Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:36 am quote
I won't be fitting the Kubler ring to my HPE as I'm not that bothered about a slight rise in top speed. And as far as knowing you're riding within the speed limits around town, the standard system ensures you'll never unknowingly break the speed limit due to the 10% error margin built into the system.

I'm curious to know though, how can the bike over-rev past the maximum revs Piaggio deemed safe to gain the extra few MPH top speed? I thought the ECU governs the maximum revs which the Kubler ring won't have any control over.

John
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Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:07 am quote
Stromrider wrote:
Hi bosco, nice to talk with you. I understand where you are coming from.

Yeah what I am saying is if the engine is going past the 75mph mark the engine is over revving and going past the engineers designed speed. The rev limiter is preventing the motor going faster at 75mph because the design engineers have altered the rev limit ceiling so it's lower. Lower than on the earlier motors. Earlier motors have the rev limiter coming into play at around 81-83mph indicated (I've seen both those speeds trigger the rev limiter) and it will vary from bike to bike due to lots of variables. On the HPE they have done this to maintain long term mechanical reliability. This is needed when you produce a mass produced engine with substantially increased power based upon an older design (although it's perfectly good to do this). Don't forget the HPE has 18% more torque (the engines actual power) and 12% more horsepower (a measure of how quickly the engine can produce that power). That is substantially more than the euro3/4 motors. But it comes at the cost of less top speed to protect the motor.

If you fit the ring it fools the ecu into thinking you are going slower than you actually are so it continues to let the revs build and therefore the bike goes faster. The gearing of the variator, belt position etc etc is not affected and cannot be affected by the ring. The HPE is running in it's highest gear position at 75mph so the only way it can go faster is for the motor to rev past it's designed set speed as set by the design engineers. This means it is over revving, the rev limiter speed restriction has been raised.

I've not had the HPE on the dyno yet or seen one being dyno'd and I haven't had the chance to take one flat out yet, but I bet at 75mph the motor seems to tighten and then doesn't want to go faster. That's because the "Rev Limiter" is reducing fuel to the injector and retarding the ignition. It also eventually probably starts to cut out shortly after in bursts to let you know to back off the throttle to prevent engine damage. The rev limiter on the HPE is much more subtle than on the earlier bikes which almost straight away go to engine cut out mode. That's how rev limiters work. There is no speed limiter as such, only the rev limiter. Folks often confuse the two. Trucks have speed limiters and these can work a bit differently and can even apply the brakes to maintain the correct speed even downhill.

Fitting the ring! It's a bonus if it makes the speedo a bit more accurate, but you should take that with a pinch of salt as it's impossible to make a completely accurate speedo for everyday use because of all the variable that affect speedos and talked about endlessly in other threads. But no doubt it is more accurate but at the expense that you may end up going faster than the speedo is registering because you have lost the under read safety zone specified by manufacturers.

That said and as I mention in an earlier post, I don't think the ring will do any actual harm if one is not using that top end performance too regularly. I'd fit one if I had the HPE, but then maybe I wouldn't. Little point in my opinion. If you want to go above 75mph on a regular basis, get a bigger bike!
Scooter John, have a read.
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Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:25 am quote
I still donít see how the ECU will allow the engine to rev past what is programmed into it unless the ECU is reading the road speed from the sensor ring and computing the engine revs from that.

I wouldíve thought the engine revs wouldíve been fed to the ECU via a crank position sensor making it impossible to over rev the engine.

John
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Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:06 pm quote
I agree 100%, John. The ECU cannot calculate the engine revs from the wheel speed because it has no knowledge of the belt position and thus no way to determine engine revs from wheel revs.

Fit lighter rollers and you will have more engine revs at the same road speed for all speeds until the variator maxes out. And sliders or a different variator can change the belt position at which it maxes out too, another variable in the equation. But the ECU knows the engine revs anyway. It is the rate at which it fires the spark and triggers the injector. It doesn't base those critical factors on wheel speed.

I am surprised to read that some models don't have the speed limiter, and so would get no benefit from the Kubler except a more accurate speedo. I had assumed they were all the same, and had decided long ago that if I bought an HPE my first mod would be a Kubler ring.
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:52 pm quote
Our previous scoots were a pair of Honda PCXes - on both of them, the speedometer reading was spot on up to about 60mph (which was 59 according to the GPS), and about 1mph off after that up to the rev limiter (which kicked in around 67mph)

My previous GTS, a 2009 250, was more than 10% off on the speedometer; more than that until about 55mph indicated, where it was right at 10% from there on. At really slow speeds, it was 5mph off at 15mph, showing 20mph on the speedo. It was frustrating to me, so I started using Waze on my phone to have an accurate speed reading.

My 2020 GTS HPE is about 8% off at slow speeds, a bit less than that at higher speeds. A speed ring that would correct that wouldn't cause me to be speeding... that would be my hand on the throttle.

I've heard the stories about "Europe requiring a lower speed reading," but haven't seen that written anywhere other than forums. Seems suspect to me. I could believe manufacturers build that in to make customers feel better about how fast their scoots go.
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Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:10 am quote
Captain Jim wrote:
I've heard the stories about "Europe requiring a lower speed reading," but haven't seen that written anywhere other than forums. Seems suspect to me. I could believe manufacturers build that in to make customers feel better about how fast their scoots go.
Here you go Captain:

[https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:42004X0331(01)&from=en]


It's quite logical really - as Stormrider has pointed out earlier in this thread, it's impossible for the speedo to be 100% accurate 100% of the time due to tyre wear, pressures and load etc.

If a manufacturer sold a vehicle with a speedo that could potentially read a slower speed than actual, then they'd be leaving themselves wide open for litigation and being blamed for drivers/riders getting speeding tickets when their speedo told them they were at the prescribed limit for that road.

John

Screenshot 2020-11-22 at 09.56.49.png

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Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:18 am quote
Stromrider wrote:
Piaggio has decided that as a mass produced scooter engine that is often ridden flat out by it's owners, the HPE engine is at risk if it is allowed to rev out to the same extent as the lower powered euro3/4 GTS bikes. So giving it more power, but lowering the rev ceiling to make sure of avoiding problems down the road is quite normal. I've done this myself when revising and developing some types of engine designs for manufacturers. This is quite common. Manufacturers don't want their bikes to get a bad reputation for unreliability. I haven't checked the final drive gears to see if they are the same as the previous bikes but even if the HPE has the same gearing engineers have in my opinion taken a prudent step to protect the engine.

They have decided not to let the engine rev out to the same extent as the previous versions for one reason only, reliability. Retaining that on a mass produced engine is vital. The rev limiter (the HPE does not have a speed limiter) is reached very quickly on the HPE and that is a signal that is important to take note of. Manufacturers don't do that without reason. Some of that reasoning is no doubt due to the small wheels but the engine will be the most important factor here.

With the Kubler ring fitted, the engine still has it's rev limiter but it will be coming in to play much later when the engine is well beyond it's designed and intended revs. Now on the older euro3/4 bikes this is clearly not an issue as the motors are very robust in that format. The HPE, maybe not so much.

The Malossified euro3/4 bikes are fun, but eventually will have a shorter overall life if ridden with gusto. They put out much much more power and at much higher rpm. Something the engines were never intended to do. It will shorten the engines life, but by how much we are not sure just yet.

Piaggio don't take risks. They cannot afford to do so. They won't go for big power and big speed figures on an engine such as the GTS bikes have. It's not suitable. But the HPE is only 1mph slower than the earlier bikes. It's just the earlier bikes can rev out more with that rev limiter set very high by comparison to the HPE. Remember though, the HPE is a totally revised engine and is not designed to rev out as much as the earlier bikes.

Not trying to pour cold water on the Kubler ring, but just making sure everyone understands how this thing works. It's ok to fit one in my opinion but care is needed. Understand what the consequences are for warranty and maybe engine life into the future.
+ 1.
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Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:56 am quote
Malsosi claim that their ForceMaster 3 removes the speed limiter and extends the rev limit by 1000rpm. So they disagree with Strom about the existence of a speed limiter.

But I gather from reports in other countries that not all HPE models have a speed limiter. Maybe only in Europe? Been Googling it but cannot find anything.
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Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:28 am quote
Mike Holland wrote:
Malsosi claim that their ForceMaster 3 removes the speed limiter and extends the rev limit by 1000rpm. So they disagree with Strom about the existence of a speed limiter.

But I gather from reports in other countries that not all HPE models have a speed limiter. Maybe only in Europe? Been Googling it but cannot find anything.
Ask Malossi, they have an information form and are very willing to give information.
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Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:37 pm quote
Attila wrote:
Ask Malossi, they have an information form and are very willing to give information.
Really? When my ForceMaster 2 didn't work (TPS setting failed) I couldn't get any response from them. And when I approached SIP, where I had bought it, they just referred me to their user forum. No help at all. My ForceMaster is lying in a drawer in my shed, useless.

They sell us little black boxes and offer no support at all.
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Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:35 am quote
Mike Holland wrote:
Malsosi claim that their ForceMaster 3 removes the speed limiter and extends the rev limit by 1000rpm. So they disagree with Strom about the existence of a speed limiter.

But I gather from reports in other countries that not all HPE models have a speed limiter. Maybe only in Europe? Been Googling it but cannot find anything.
Yeah, Mike, it's the rev limiter acting like a speed limiter. Folk often confuse the two. SIP actually calls it a REV LIMITER in the link I post below. That is what it is, not a speed limiter which in engineering terms is different. Initially, the ECU takes its reading from the abs speed ring on the rear wheel as it's directly related to the engine revs and speed at a mean of 75mph (the bike is in it's highest gear), but at that time isn't acting quite the same as when in full rev limiter mode. It just retards the ignition and reduces fuel pressure to the injector a bit. It's hardly noticeable, except the bike won't go any faster. However, the rev limiter in it's full engine rev limiting function will indeed kick in and cut the fuel at marginally higher speeds to prevent damage to the engine should you drop off a cliff so I'm told (haven't had confirmation on the dyno with a Kubler yet so watch out those of you with a Kublar fitted.)! Also, don't know what engine speed it will kick in. Dropping off a cliff may bend the bodywork but the engine will still be fine!Lol. At that time the rev limiter is then taking it's reading from other engine sources as well as the Kubler.

But take time to remember why Piaggio has done this. It's because they are not happy for owners to exceed 75mph on a regular basis. The HPE engine is quite different to the earlier bikes like you and me have. The motor is more highly stressed. They have combated that with more servicing at earlier times, and by reducing the engines ability to go faster. The HPE is a great engine, it's strong and it will last a long time, but it's probably best to adhere to it's original designed top speed. That's just my opinion based upon what I've learned about it's design and from what others in the trade are telling me. I'd still like to know what Piaggio will say about warranty with bikes fitted with this device. I suspect it's unlikely they will be happy to cover engine problems if any occur, as the owners will have changed the design of the bike causing a substantive change in performance. It's not the bike design they sold you. It's rather telling that all the folks selling this ring are at pains to tell you that it can be removed without leaving a trace!

Take a look below at the link I post. Note how the engine revs are disabled so we cannot see how high they go when the bike is doing 81mph. It's probably a deliberate act to ensure the bikes warranty is not affected, although maybe not.

I haven't heard anything about European HPE bikes being different to the Supertech regarding how the Kubler might work. Everything I'm saying is based upon what I've deduced from looking at the design specs and from what I've been told by folks selling Vespas and a Piaggio rep. Myself, I think they are right!

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/tone-wheel-kubler-racing-abs-rear_KBPI0010

Again, not saying don't buy a Kubler, but be aware of any potential consequences. Those of you who already have the ring, please keep us all upto date on how it goes. Personally, I don't think they are a bad idea but just don't over use it. And thanks!
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Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:33 am quote
Mike Holland wrote:
Attila wrote:
Ask Malossi, they have an information form and are very willing to give information.
Really? When my ForceMaster 2 didn't work (TPS setting failed) I couldn't get any response from them. And when I approached SIP, where I had bought it, they just referred me to their user forum. No help at all. My ForceMaster is lying in a drawer in my shed, useless.

They sell us little black boxes and offer no support at all.
Whenever i contacted them (recently for the 183cc modification for my scooter) they replied.
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Posts: 69

Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:31 am quote
My observation with the speed ring installed are as follows:

Before installation:
-Speedometer would indicate highway speeds 5 MPH faster than GPS indicated
-Engine rev limit would engage at ~75 MPH (per the speedometer)
-Odometer indicated correct distances traveled

After installation:
-Speedometer would match indicated GPS speed
-Engine rev limit would engage at ~81 MPH (per the speedometer)
-Odometer reading are ~7.5% less that the GPS mileage log.

ó-> I edited this post to correct a mistake in the before installation speedometer speed error.

Last edited by sandiego_steve on Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
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Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:08 pm quote
There must be something wrong with your bike Steve if it showed a speed under read against your GPS. By law your Speedo must over read.

As mention earlier the rev limiter gets information from several sources but makes the final decision to cut revs based upon crankshaft revs only. It can slow you based upon speed only though, acting in a similar way to a "speed limiter". Thanks for posting that info though.
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2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 3112
Location: East Anglia, a dryer region of the UK than Israel
Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:13 pm quote
Attila wrote:
Mike Holland wrote:
Attila wrote:
Ask Malossi, they have an information form and are very willing to give information.
Really? When my ForceMaster 2 didn't work (TPS setting failed) I couldn't get any response from them. And when I approached SIP, where I had bought it, they just referred me to their user forum. No help at all. My ForceMaster is lying in a drawer in my shed, useless.

They sell us little black boxes and offer no support at all.
Whenever i contacted them (recently for the 183cc modification for my scooter) they replied.
I found them ok too! Maybe the European SIP is better than the US one.
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Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:51 am quote
Stromrider wrote:
Attila wrote:
Mike Holland wrote:
Attila wrote:
Ask Malossi, they have an information form and are very willing to give information.
Really? When my ForceMaster 2 didn't work (TPS setting failed) I couldn't get any response from them. And when I approached SIP, where I had bought it, they just referred me to their user forum. No help at all. My ForceMaster is lying in a drawer in my shed, useless.

They sell us little black boxes and offer no support at all.
Whenever i contacted them (recently for the 183cc modification for my scooter) they replied.
I found them ok too! Maybe the European SIP is better than the US one.
It's not a problem of understanding, even i understand you.
I wrote to Malossi ... Let's see if they respond.
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Joined: 11 Apr 2017
Posts: 69

Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:11 am quote
Stromrider wrote:
There must be something wrong with your bike Steve if it showed a speed under read against your GPS. By law your Speedo must over read.

As mention earlier the rev limiter gets information from several sources but makes the final decision to cut revs based upon crankshaft revs only. It can slow you based upon speed only though, acting in a similar way to a "speed limiter". Thanks for posting that info though.
My goof!!! I should have written 5 MPH faster than GPS. Not enough coffee.
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2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
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Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:21 am quote
Right, yeah did wonder Steve.
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Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:53 am quote
... only 5 mph ..? But it can make a difference with a speed limit detector used by the police.
A few years ago I got a fine (and three points less on my driving license) of Ä 280 for having exceeded the maximum limit by three kilometers per hour (50 km / h and up to 59 km / h, fine halved without collecting points but I was going to 63 km / h .. .insane speed, 39 mph).
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