SIP Vape ignition evaluation
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Hooked
PX125E
Joined: 06 Oct 2018
Posts: 178
Location: Gravesend, Kent, UK
Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:28 pm quote
Hello.
This is a roundabout question about the SIP Vape ignition Variable timing type.
I have a 2012 PX125E which I modified/de restricted. I have a run in DR177 kit to go on at the next major service in 700 Miles time. I had odd problems with it breaking down which I think I have fixed.

My question is one of the fixes I did and failed to find the fault was buying and fitting a SIP ignition system. Iím not convinced it made enough difference to warrant the cost. The problem I have is the kit comes without a mounting Bracket for the ignition coil. I canít weld but I know a Transvestite who can.

The first bracket fouled the Indicator in the side panel. The second which was made from stainless steel sheared due to the vibration. The third one made from Mild steel also cracked. The coil is now wrapped in 3mm Rubber Mat and cable tied to the remains of the bracket.

Iím seriously thinking about putting the original ignition system back on with a Readspeed Zeus Ignition module as it was before I kept dumping bits everywhere.

I would appreciate Your opinions on the SIP ignition Before I baptise my Scooter in the River Thames.
Molto Verboso
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 1077
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:48 pm quote
The lack of a bracket is a pitfa. I made one out of angle aluminum only to find the CDI was contacting the inside of the cowl. Modified it a bit so the coil is only a mm or so off the starter motor - but note like you have that the vibration is pretty excessive on the poor CDI (canít be good for it). Am thinking of making something else up out of more angle aluminum.

The small print canít use the e-start bs annoyed me most. Seriously - how hard would it have been for them to machine a lip on the flywheel to mount a starter ring gear? Maybe the grade of aluminum isnít good enough...

I will say - the output from the VAPE is awesome for ensuring bright lights and fast battery charging.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8053
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:25 am quote
No bracket was very annoying. Maybe in the fine print somewhere it mentions that but I didn't see it.
I made one out of stainless 1.5mm flat/sheet and it's been on there for ages, maybe 3 years now. Did you use a rubber mount at all? I used rubber grommets and bolted it with nylocs so it could still move about.

One of the reasons I bought the Vape was that it was supposed to put out full power near idle. My sip speedo still cuts out at idle so obviously that was not true.

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Molto Verboso
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 1077
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:55 am quote
Ginch wrote:
One of the reasons I bought the Vape was that it was supposed to put out full power near idle. My sip speedo still cuts out at idle so obviously that was not true.
I seem to get plenty at idle. Halogen is bright and still putting out enough to put something back into the battery. Somethings not right. Kicking it over puts out enough to turn my Speedo on.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8053
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:47 pm quote
Perhaps you're right, more about the speedo than the Vape. Not sure where to go from there.
Molto Verboso
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 1077
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:35 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
Perhaps you're right, more about the speedo than the Vape. Not sure where to go from there.
Or earthing? Can you check the output of the VAPE? Should be 13.4V even at idle I think. How have you wired in the speedo?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8053
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:39 pm quote
pheasant plucker wrote:
Ginch wrote:
Perhaps you're right, more about the speedo than the Vape. Not sure where to go from there.
Or earthing? Can you check the output of the VAPE? Should be 13.4V even at idle I think. How have you wired in the speedo?
I can't remember, it's been there a long time now. The motor is being rebuilt - or at least waiting for me to rebuild it - so can't test just now. I'll put it on my list.
Hooked
PX125E
Joined: 06 Oct 2018
Posts: 178
Location: Gravesend, Kent, UK
Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:39 pm quote
Yes. I did fit the original rubber dampers. the first bracket was the original piaggio one cut and welded to fit the coil. unfortunately it fouled the Indicator.
I like the Grommet idea.

the other thing I was less than impressed with is the electrical connectors. they would be fit for purpose in the back of a telly but I can't see them surviving the first winter.

my sip speedo works fine. I wired it up as the AC diagram as I ditched the battery and starter motor. I put a small sealed battery back on as the horn needs it. I carry a tool kit where the battery used to be.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8053
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:35 am quote
Nice idea!
Hooked
Vespa PX200
Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 413
Location: Belgrade
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:45 pm quote
Speaking of the missing bracket -- I see that SIP sells a bracket and a so-called mounting kit, with the rubber buffers. Anybody here try that? Is it better than jury-rigging your own setup?
Hooked
PX125E
Joined: 06 Oct 2018
Posts: 178
Location: Gravesend, Kent, UK
Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:52 pm quote
JimVanMorrissey wrote:
Speaking of the missing bracket -- I see that SIP sells a bracket and a so-called mounting kit, with the rubber buffers. Anybody here try that? Is it better than jury-rigging your own setup?
Hello.
The last bracket I tried was a sip one. The mounting holes are the right size for the original bushes.

this bracket split along the bend. I unbolted the coil and cable tied it to the bracket after wrapping it with a bit of rubber mat.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8053
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:36 pm quote
I got one of these recently, haven't fitted it in place of my home made one yet. It does look like it puts the weight out a long way, and presumably it's the wobbling about at the end of the long part that promotes the break? It doesn't need to stick out that far.

Hooked
Vespa PX200
Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 413
Location: Belgrade
Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:21 pm quote
This is the one they sell for the PX. Doesn't have a bend in it. Wonder if this is the right one?

b242a4c3-e02b-45cc-a7de-263e38f3bb3a.jpg

Hooked
Vespa PX200
Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 413
Location: Belgrade
Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:33 am quote
Bumping this thread -- wanted to check in on everybody here running VAPE ignitions who've lived with them for a while.

So, uh, how's that going?

Seriously though, what I'm after is a read on the reliability of these things, at least compared to stock. Anybody have some hairy experiences? Or have they been generally rock solid?

Also, what's the first thing to die, or rather, which are the 'consumable' parts that necessitate carrying a spare? The ignition? The regulator? What about the stator -- are those generally holding up well after a year+ of use?

Just curious, would like to pull the trigger (finally) on making the switch to DC. And everybody has good things to say about these units.
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2953
Location: Nashville
Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:50 am quote
I have two of the DC Sport (variable timing) systems on two different bikes and as (I think) the first person on here to run the VAPE, I can say that it's been extremely reliable, with one relevant exception.

I'll be adding a third to my new P200 build when I start ordering bits for that project.

The wiring on my very first CDI died after less than a year and when I looked at it, the copper was prematurely rotten, so they clearly had some supply chain issues. I replaced that CDI and it's been smooth running ever since.

Later, *I* made the mistake of letting my DC and AC grounds touch when I moved that motor into my SprintV, which demagnetized the flywheel and prevented charging, but it still ran just fine. I ran it that way and just charged the battery every few days for a couple months until I got around to placing an order and threw a new flywheel at that time. Once I replaced the flywheel, I was back up and running with bright lights and solid DC output ever since (that was about a year or so ago, I think).

From what I can tell, the biggest challenges people have with this setup are converting their existing wiring harnesses to work with it and, assuming you go the variable timing route, wrapping your head around setting up the variable timing.

If you're comfortable doing that work, I think you'll be extremely happy with it.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1959
Location: california
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:04 am quote
As per my other post - I am a fan.
Expensive - but very high quality and highly reliable in my experience.
Can hardly remember all the bulb changing and burned out SIP speedo from my old mystery AC version - which seemed to put out anywhere from 8 to 24 volts depending on it's mood and where Venus was aligned with the stars.

Ginch - I run a battery - so don't experience any shut off of electronics at idle - but have had the battery fuse blow (wire had grounded) and experienced the not enough output at idle.
I read your issue above. Assume you are running the DC with no battery.

Christopher - who was brilliant at helping decipher the GSF dyno board - might be able to help here.
Couldn't someone put a small capacitor inline where the VAPE DC calls for the battery to sit - and thus have a tiny battery to offset this issue?
I think Safis or someone else had recommended this.
Does it seem viable?
Is there such a thing as a cheap off the shelf capacitor that would fit the bill that would solve Ginch's issue and provide those that don't want the weight and size of a full battery to have enough capacity to keep the lights on at idle?

tumblr_pjg1pjes4X1w888b5o7_r1_1280.jpg

Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1387
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:41 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
As per my other post - I am a fan.
Expensive - but very high quality and highly reliable in my experience.
Can hardly remember all the bulb changing and burned out SIP speedo from my old mystery AC version - which seemed to put out anywhere from 8 to 24 volts depending on it's mood and where Venus was aligned with the stars.

Ginch - I run a battery - so don't experience any shut off of electronics at idle - but have had the battery fuse blow (wire had grounded) and experienced the not enough output at idle.
I read your issue above. Assume you are running the DC with no battery.

Christopher - who was brilliant at helping decipher the GSF dyno board - might be able to help here.
Couldn't someone put a small capacitor inline where the VAPE DC calls for the battery to sit - and thus have a tiny battery to offset this issue?
I think Safis or someone else had recommended this.
Does it seem viable?
Is there such a thing as a cheap off the shelf capacitor that would fit the bill that would solve Ginch's issue and provide those that don't want the weight and size of a full battery to have enough capacity to keep the lights on at idle?
Ginch and I talked a bit about options, one is a capacitor, he actually was looking at a capacitor and diode setup for his SIP speedometer. Personally, I would find a spot for a small lead acid battery, say 2 or 3 amp hours. It could be a baby battery which would act as a capacitor also.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1959
Location: california
Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:53 pm quote
Christopher - thanks. Perhaps it was that discussion I recall.
With space and weight such a premium - would something as simple as this work:? https://www.batteriesplus.com/productdetails/SLAA12=0.8WL?storecode=304&locationofinterest=&locationphysical=9031190&utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=ecommpla&gclid=CjwKCAiAouD_BRBIEiwALhJH6GSuI_8CiOBEfkzdNsC_jz_jebzQ-DYqfPF7MCSehA1XxCzGNA103BoC6roQAvD_BwE

It's less than 1AH - but how long could you really sit at a light before you pick up the idle? Are there other reasons this wouldn't fly - or you would recommend against something this small?
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1387
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:58 pm quote
Run time at a stop light would really depend on the bulbs. A Halogen 35 watt low beam bulb draws about 2.5 amps at 13.6 Volts. That battery should be able to run it at a stop light for 10 minutes or so without an issue.

I have one of these, I haven't tried fitting yet, it draws 12 watts or ~0.8 amps. Should run it for 30 minutes no problem. Not sure I can even fit it in there.

https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/miniature-and-subminiature-bulbs/motorcycle-h4-led-fanless-headlight-conversion-bulb-with-internal-driver-2000-lumens/5323/
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1959
Location: california
Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:03 pm quote
Quote:
That battery should be able to run it at a stop light for 10 minutes or so without an issue.
Since when does Ginch stop for red anyway?

🙂

Thanks. I will go Vape DC again but this time with a very small battery if I can.
There is a second thread on the whole LED headlamp.
Much better than incandescent - but I found it couldn't hold up to the rigors/ lacked adjustment.
The base circular rubber of the one you have is removable I believe - so you may be able to make an adapter using an old incandescent headlamp and replacing it - so it locks right in - if that base is not a match to your headlight reflector base.

I found the LED's like you have a bit long - so I made an adapter of sorts so that it didn't sit as deeply in to the reflector.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8053
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:49 pm quote
JimVanMorrissey wrote:
Bumping this thread -- wanted to check in on everybody here running VAPE ignitions who've lived with them for a while.

So, uh, how's that going?
Very happy with mine. I did have an earth somewhere that wasn't meant to have an earth... managed to kill the stator. My fault entirely. The great thing is you can buy all the individual bits. As Chandlerman found out with the Pinasco, you can hardly get anything at all individually.

Also KR automation do an adjustable CDI for the Vape, which I believe can be bought through LTH.
charlieman22 wrote:
I found the LED's like you have a bit long - so I made an adapter of sorts so that it didn't sit as deeply in to the reflector.
Got pics? And what headset is that in? SIP speedo?
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1959
Location: california
Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:11 pm quote
Quote:
Got pics? And what headset is that in? SIP speedo?
'Fraid I failed on pics of the LED bulb inserted to std headlamp.
It rattled itself to death - so not sure there would be much value.
The three point bolts I am now using on the other hand - are kinda cool in their simplicity - holding on the bezel and aiming the light.
The aim part is nice.

Headset is a std VBB (I think!) but I will measure the ID of the round hole for the light next time I have the bulb out.
Blissfully - I have not had to continue to remove and repair since I went to this light...

SIP Spedo - yes - and hydronic line snaked through it as well.
The light is fairly shallow overall - allowing me to stuff the headset full.
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2953
Location: Nashville
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:14 am quote
Ginch wrote:
Also KR automation do an adjustable CDI for the Vape, which I believe can be bought through LTH.
Also, with the Vape, the fixed/variable timing is specific to the CDI, so you can swap them out if you, say, start out fixed and then decide you want to go variable later on.

Now, about the KR Automation...is it programmable curves or like the Kytronik and switchable between multiple curves?
Hooked
1958 Allstate Super Cruisaire
Joined: 23 Aug 2020
Posts: 121
Location: Philadelphia
Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:46 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Quote:
Got pics? And what headset is that in? SIP speedo?
'Fraid I failed on pics of the LED bulb inserted to std headlamp.
It rattled itself to death - so not sure there would be much value.
The three point bolts I am now using on the other hand - are kinda cool in their simplicity - holding on the bezel and aiming the light.
The aim part is nice.

Headset is a std VBB (I think!) but I will measure the ID of the round hole for the light next time I have the bulb out.
Blissfully - I have not had to continue to remove and repair since I went to this light...

SIP Spedo - yes - and hydronic line snaked through it as well.
The light is fairly shallow overall - allowing me to stuff the headset full.
your ID for the hole should be 110mm right? If the VBB body is the same as the VNA that is. I thought I read that the body's and what not were identical? I may be wrong about that though. I know my '58 has a 110mm headlight
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8053
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:09 pm quote
chandlerman wrote:
Now, about the KR Automation...is it programmable curves or like the Kytronik and switchable between multiple curves?
Switchable. Links and stuff here - Vape switchable ignition curves - Marco from LTH says what you need is the coil and controller.
Here's the KR blurb - https://1537118469.jimdofree.com/english/overrev-ignition/
Hooked
Vespa PX200
Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 413
Location: Belgrade
Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:59 am quote
Hey, thanks for the informative replies everybody. I'm definitely going to go for this DC Vape. Shame as I have a brand new regular stator installed that only has 5km on it.

Just to confirm, and yes it might be a dumb question - there's only one DC Vape option, and you can optionally insert a battery into the mix based on your wiring handiwork. Is that right? I can't seem to find different battery/batteryless options.

Part of my reason for going for this DC option is this vulnerable feeling I get from being without a proper horn. That's possibly another thread.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8053
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:32 pm quote
JimVanMorrissey wrote:
Hey, thanks for the informative replies everybody. I'm definitely going to go for this DC Vape. Shame as I have a brand new regular stator installed that only has 5km on it.

Just to confirm, and yes it might be a dumb question - there's only one DC Vape option, and you can optionally insert a battery into the mix based on your wiring handiwork. Is that right? I can't seem to find different battery/batteryless options.

Part of my reason for going for this DC option is this vulnerable feeling I get from being without a proper horn. That's possibly another thread.
Yes you can hook in a battery. I've done it but it's manually switched, some day I'll work out how to do it properly.

Looking forward to the definitive horn answer!!
Addicted
1974 Rally 200, 1974 Rally 200 with sidecar, Vespacross bike
Joined: 09 Apr 2009
Posts: 574
Location: Atlanta
Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:57 am quote
JimVanMorrissey wrote:
This is the one they sell for the PX. Doesn't have a bend in it. Wonder if this is the right one?
Electric start models.
http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Electronic-Ignition-Kits/17950500
Ossessionato
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 61 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 86 & 96 Elite 80s, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3836
Location: Oceanside, CA
Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:09 am quote
From the manual

05240F71-7DE2-429C-8DE8-C837928579A3.jpeg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8053
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:59 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Expensive - but very high quality and highly reliable in my experience.
Have you ever added up what a complete new Ducati electronic system costs? I'd be surprised if it wasn't quite close to what the Vape costs. Which of course is around 15 or 20% cheaper than the Vespatronic/IDM variants.
Molto Verboso
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 1077
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:46 pm quote
JimVanMorrissey wrote:
Bumping this thread -- wanted to check in on everybody here running VAPE ignitions who've lived with them for a while.

So, uh, how's that going?

Seriously though, what I'm after is a read on the reliability of these things, at least compared to stock. Anybody have some hairy experiences? Or have they been generally rock solid?

Also, what's the first thing to die, or rather, which are the 'consumable' parts that necessitate carrying a spare? The ignition? The regulator? What about the stator -- are those generally holding up well after a year+ of use?

Just curious, would like to pull the trigger (finally) on making the switch to DC. And everybody has good things to say about these units.
DC VAPE Sport (variable) on the PX200 in my VBB. Apart from some ďminorĒ issues (mounting bracket, one stator plate screw washer needed grinding to seat properly, and the flywheel that doesnít take a starter ring gear) itís a good quality product that gives plenty of output. Have a Antigravity LiFePO3 battery which has been remarkably robust also - no issues parked up for a few weeks. If wanting decent output 12v DC then thumbs up from me.
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