'70 Sprint Veloce: Nasty snatch explained..
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Member
'13 LML '70 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 01 Aug 2019
Posts: 47
Location: London
Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:16 pm quote
Note how the panels on this Sprint Veloce aren't symmetrical, specifically they are different lengths where they meet the mudguard.

The vendor assures me that they are correct.. are they?



Last edited by jackytwoshoes on Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:18 pm; edited 4 times in total
Ossessionato
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Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:20 pm quote
They should be symmetrical. The longer one could be coming from a Bajaj (they were longer)...
Addicted
GL, PK, PE200 with hack, Sears Rust Badge
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Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:35 pm quote
Yep, had the same issue on a US 70's Sprint I had. PO replaced engine cover with Bajaj cowl. I thought he replaced the tool box cowl with a Super cowl. But now that I think back to it, the bike had all types of Bajaj parts like the seats, 12v ignition and other bits. My slight ADD could not look at it anymore and dam near gave the bike away for what I got back in a trade. I should have just replaced the cowl, painted the scooter from it early 2000 resto metallic blue color and kept it.
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2852
Location: Nashville
Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:03 pm quote
That's 100% Wrong.

I'd run far away from that scooter. If they seller doesn't know or care about something that's so obviously wrong, imagine what else must be going on there.

Here's a shot of the rear of my US Sprint V. The left-hand cowl is a little higher than the right (which I never noticed before now), but that's a mounting issue and I'll fix that if I ever get to swapping the gray trim for black on that side.. They're definitely the same length.

No comparison, even if mine isn't as pretty as the one you were looking at.

IMG_20200725_175644.jpg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:46 pm quote
On my Super they're different. I'll have a look in Tecnica tonight and see what it shows.
Member
'13 LML '70 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 01 Aug 2019
Posts: 47
Location: London
Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:31 pm quote
I have a confession to make: I bought this that a price that was too good to refuse. Even if I have to rebuild the entire thing it'll be worth it..

I've noticed-

1) A PX handles infinitely better. I'm curious about the Bajaj anti dive kits or PK front ends. Can someone point me to the person on here who did a disc conversion on a green large frame? I can't for the life of me find it..

2) It has a nasty habit of snatching into gear- when pulling off and releasing the clutch it'll sometimes make a nasty crunch and take up drive suddenly. I haven't yet tried the brass clutch plunger but the crunch makes me think that the crucifix is in the wrong way.. The PO did just "rebuild" it.

3) It has no ignition key, no steering lock. I need to figure a way of making it secure for day-to-day London use.

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Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
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Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:56 pm quote
The engine side panel looks correct, but not the toolbox side. Maybe it's from a 150 Super?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:18 pm quote
jackytwoshoes wrote:
Can someone point me to the person on here who did a disc conversion on a green large frame? I can't for the life of me find it..
That's me.
Fork Swap for 150 Super
Disc brake setup for oldie

Crimaz does a nice kit with an external disc which works well - uses the original fork. He also has a master cylinder setup which avoids altering the headset.
Member
'13 LML '70 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 01 Aug 2019
Posts: 47
Location: London
Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:25 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
jackytwoshoes wrote:
Can someone point me to the person on here who did a disc conversion on a green large frame? I can't for the life of me find it..
That's me.
Fork Swap for 150 Super
Disc brake setup for oldie

Crimaz does a nice kit with an external disc which works well - uses the original fork. He also has a master cylinder setup which avoids altering the headset.
Thanks, ace work. Most of the reports of putting in P forks into an older frame involve grinding steering stops and fiddling about with new bearing races etc.. did you experience any of those problems? Is the handling and diving noticeably improved?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7954
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:13 am quote
jackytwoshoes wrote:
Ginch wrote:
jackytwoshoes wrote:
Can someone point me to the person on here who did a disc conversion on a green large frame? I can't for the life of me find it..
That's me.
Fork Swap for 150 Super
Disc brake setup for oldie

Crimaz does a nice kit with an external disc which works well - uses the original fork. He also has a master cylinder setup which avoids altering the headset.
Thanks, ace work. Most of the reports of putting in P forks into an older frame involve grinding steering stops and fiddling about with new bearing races etc.. did you experience any of those problems? Is the handling and diving noticeably improved?
I reckon most of the info is in those threads... but I don't think there was any alteration to the steering stops. Yes handling is way better imo. And of course braking is vastly improved.
If I'd had the choice at the time though I think I would have gone for the Crimaz setup, it's very nicely done. Compared to all new Grimeca bits and the cost of converting a fork it's a little more expensive.
Member
'13 LML '70 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 01 Aug 2019
Posts: 47
Location: London
Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:45 am quote
Ginch wrote:
jackytwoshoes wrote:
Ginch wrote:
jackytwoshoes wrote:
Can someone point me to the person on here who did a disc conversion on a green large frame? I can't for the life of me find it..
That's me.
Fork Swap for 150 Super
Disc brake setup for oldie

Crimaz does a nice kit with an external disc which works well - uses the original fork. He also has a master cylinder setup which avoids altering the headset.
Thanks, ace work. Most of the reports of putting in P forks into an older frame involve grinding steering stops and fiddling about with new bearing races etc.. did you experience any of those problems? Is the handling and diving noticeably improved?
I reckon most of the info is in those threads... but I don't think there was any alteration to the steering stops. Yes handling is way better imo. And of course braking is vastly improved.
If I'd had the choice at the time though I think I would have gone for the Crimaz setup, it's very nicely done. Compared to all new Grimeca bits and the cost of converting a fork it's a little more expensive.
Thanks for the real world feedback- very useful. The thing I don't understand about the Crimaz set up though is that since it retains the original suspension linkage, presumably it would still bob and dive just like the original set up- or perhaps worse because of the increase in brake performance? I'd love to make this handle a bit more like my P.
Molto Verboso
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Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:31 am quote
Then you'll need to go the PK XL fork route and use one of the BFA fibreglass mudguards to keep it honest. I don't see how using the original Sprint V fork is ever going to get you P/PX front end ride quality. Piaggio changed for good reason. This is why a good tourer is always going to be a PX200++
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
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Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:23 pm quote
Before I rode one with a great shock on the front, I wouldn't believe it either. But it's actually pretty good. True it's not as good as a P fork (with its wide choice of shocks and types of calipers/carriers) but if you're interested in keeping it stock looking then Crimaz is pretty close. Then again, if you have access to a P fork & disc for cheap it's an easier choice.

The PK fork, never put one on a largeframe but in theory ought to be able to fit an unmolested Sprint guard. Swa, think the mudguard you're thinking of is PLC - https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/mudguard+plc+for+vespa+125+gt_76021600
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
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Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:18 am quote
That'll be the one Ginch. Getting my three letter acronym suppliers mixed up
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7954
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:08 am quote
swa45 wrote:
That'll be the one Ginch. Getting my three letter acronym suppliers mixed up
Be careful with those TLA's!!
Member
'13 LML '70 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 01 Aug 2019
Posts: 47
Location: London
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:30 am quote
There's a definite difference you can see here.

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Member
'13 LML '70 Sprint Veloce
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Posts: 47
Location: London
Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:20 am quote
I had a little time today to have a ride around on this. It runs well but has this nasty snatchy transmission. Iíve noticed it pulling away in 1st and also changing down into 2nd/1st.

It feels very mechanical, it feels like the cruciform is very suddenly engaging with the gears and crunching or something like that. I know that ďit was just rebuilt with a new cruciform and thatís when the problems startedĒ.

Wrong cruciform?

Video:
Link if chrome is being pesky: https://youtu.be/NrVW6CjcA1c
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2852
Location: Nashville
Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:48 pm quote
First thing I'd check is that the brass plunger and plate in the clutch cover are not rubbing with the clutch out and have prematurely worn. I've had that happen when the clutch arm got gummed up and stiff, so it wasn't returning correctly. Sounds and feels exactly like that.

The good news is that if that's it, then so long as you haven't messed up the clutch plates, it's a simple fix--just replace the plunger & clutch plate, clean & lube the clutch in the clutch cover. No case splitting required.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:03 pm quote
Sometimes with a very new clutch they just snatch. Need some running in. The quick way to run in a clutch is to slip it while riding. In the lower gears hold the lever in a bit and ride along for a while at high rpm. If you do this several/many times at 10 or 20 seconds at a time, it might start getting better. If not or gets worse it's time to get your hands dirty.
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 150
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Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:38 pm quote
Mine did that after sitting for months in storage with very little use in the few years preceding that. Pulled the clutch lubed it with fresh oil, put it back together and has been fine since.
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2852
Location: Nashville
Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:27 pm quote
You can also let it sit and idle for 10 or 15 minutes and that will bathe the clutch in oil, too.
Member
'13 LML '70 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 01 Aug 2019
Posts: 47
Location: London
Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:07 am quote
That's interesting, thanks.

I've had a grabby clutch on my LML and this feels very different- very metallic and grindy. It does seem at it's worst when just started and seems to get better after a minute or so.

I'll try clutch pressure plate, bushing etc, then I was thinking it would also be worth trying a different selector box before tearing the engine down. The one on it is badged FA Italia and I'm pretty sure I've got an LML one somewhere. (it's a PX engine by the way).
Molto Verboso
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Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:31 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
Before I rode one with a great shock on the front, I wouldn't believe it either. But it's actually pretty good. True it's not as good as a P fork (with its wide choice of shocks and types of calipers/carriers) but if you're interested in keeping it stock looking then Crimaz is pretty close. Then again, if you have access to a P fork & disc for cheap it's an easier choice.

The PK fork, never put one on a largeframe but in theory ought to be able to fit an unmolested Sprint guard. Swa, think the mudguard you're thinking of is PLC - https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/mudguard+plc+for+vespa+125+gt_76021600
The PK XL fork with PX disc hub causes leftwards offset (~4mm). And pretty sure your guard will need modification (serious pitfa). And you will likely end up with a gap below the horncast. This all occurs when putting the fork into a VBB frame... so maybe some might be better in a Sprint?

But knowing what I do now I probably wouldíve used a PX fork and got it cut/welded as per Ginch. May still swap... but really donít want to be fitting my guard again. So probably not. Save my P fork for a future project
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
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Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:04 pm quote
pheasant plucker wrote:
Ginch wrote:
Before I rode one with a great shock on the front, I wouldn't believe it either. But it's actually pretty good. True it's not as good as a P fork (with its wide choice of shocks and types of calipers/carriers) but if you're interested in keeping it stock looking then Crimaz is pretty close. Then again, if you have access to a P fork & disc for cheap it's an easier choice.

The PK fork, never put one on a largeframe but in theory ought to be able to fit an unmolested Sprint guard. Swa, think the mudguard you're thinking of is PLC - https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/mudguard+plc+for+vespa+125+gt_76021600
The PK XL fork with PX disc hub causes leftwards offset (~4mm). And pretty sure your guard will need modification (serious pitfa). And you will likely end up with a gap below the horncast. This all occurs when putting the fork into a VBB frame... so maybe some might be better in a Sprint?

But knowing what I do now I probably wouldíve used a PX fork and got it cut/welded as per Ginch. May still swap... but really donít want to be fitting my guard again. So probably not. Save my P fork for a future project
A mate is trying to deal with the offset by pressing the axle a bit further in. Or out, can't recall which direction. And others have mentioned that they remove the studs from the hub and file/turn down the little pad a bit. Most people say you would never notice.
Member
'13 LML '70 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 01 Aug 2019
Posts: 47
Location: London
Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:54 pm quote
I had a little Vespa time today.. the sprint is lovely to ride despite its current faults. Itís so light and slight!

I was surprised to see a 6 spring clutch in there.. they look bloody tiny! I tried to replace it with an old 7 spring one from my LML but it wouldnít fit under the clutch cover. It wasnít even close to fitting.

I had a rummage around and found an LML clutch cover, but this wouldnít fit on the PX cases with snagging on that bolt that holds in the primaries.. sigh. Iím a little confused as to what clutch/cover combo will work.

This meant that the 6 spring had to go back in. I thought I may as well strip the clutch down and oil the plates, and I replaced the pressure plate and brass plunger too.

And..... it still grinds and snatches. For a while it seemed like it was better but now it seems worse again.

I made a video where Iím holding the back brake on and ďridingĒ the point where the nastiness happens- you can hear it.

Is it rebuild time? New cruciform? New selector box? Bad shim in the gears?

Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2852
Location: Nashville
Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:14 pm quote
the clutch should spin freely when compressed a little bit. SIP have a video of how to change a clutch that demonstrates it, or I can do a quick video that demonstrates it tomorrow.

And, yes, the six spring clutch is a bit of a PITA, but it makes it a lot easier for people without a gorilla grip, too, so it's not all bad, and is plenty strong unless you're going to do some serious tuning on the motor, and maybe not even then. I have the six spring clutch with stiffer springs in my Sprint and it's held up just fine being subjected to 16-17 HP, as best I recall. (That motor has a lot more in it , I just haven't done the work yet).
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7954
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Sep 06, 2020 7:09 pm quote
The LML cover should fit. Often it's just a matter of changing the retaining plate under the primary nut. Sometimes just turning the nut a bit further helps.
Member
'13 LML '70 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 01 Aug 2019
Posts: 47
Location: London
Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:15 am quote
chandlerman wrote:
the clutch should spin freely when compressed a little bit. SIP have a video of how to change a clutch that demonstrates it, or I can do a quick video that demonstrates it tomorrow.

And, yes, the six spring clutch is a bit of a PITA, but it makes it a lot easier for people without a gorilla grip, too, so it's not all bad, and is plenty strong unless you're going to do some serious tuning on the motor, and maybe not even then. I have the six spring clutch with stiffer springs in my Sprint and it's held up just fine being subjected to 16-17 HP, as best I recall. (That motor has a lot more in it , I just haven't done the work yet).
Yes when I put my clutch compressor on it, it spins freely. When I dismantled it the cog spins freely on the basket too.
Member
'13 LML '70 Sprint Veloce
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Posts: 47
Location: London
Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:18 am quote
Ginch wrote:
The LML cover should fit. Often it's just a matter of changing the retaining plate under the primary nut. Sometimes just turning the nut a bit further helps.
That's interesting- I was cautious to take off that nut in case something fell apart inside or I couldn't do it up again or something. I can freely take it off and change the position of the nut/retaining plate yeah?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
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Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:22 am quote
jackytwoshoes wrote:
Ginch wrote:
The LML cover should fit. Often it's just a matter of changing the retaining plate under the primary nut. Sometimes just turning the nut a bit further helps.
That's interesting- I was cautious to take off that nut in case something fell apart inside or I couldn't do it up again or something. I can freely take it off and change the position of the nut/retaining plate yeah?
Yep. It can't fall out or anything. Just be sure to torque it back up and bend the retaining plate thingy back.
Member
'13 LML '70 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 01 Aug 2019
Posts: 47
Location: London
Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:06 am quote
Well there was a sense of inevitability to this.

The gears are still doing their horrible crunchy thing
The kick start occasionally jumps
The gearbox oil was completely full of petrol.

Solution: engine out time. Be gentle on me, itís my first rebuild!

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Member
'13 LML '70 Sprint Veloce
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Location: London
Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:09 am quote
Engine and tank be gone.

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Addicted
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '66 Allstate SF, '64 VBB, '66 180SS
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Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:52 am quote
What are the signs of a bad cush drive ?
Member
'13 LML '70 Sprint Veloce
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Posts: 47
Location: London
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:10 am quote
Moto64 wrote:
What are the signs of a bad cush drive ?
Good question- Iím imagining a slightly less than perfect take-up but this is a horrible metallic clash.

I was planning on shaking the primary drive to detect any rattles but maybe I should rebuild it to be sure- only problem is I donít have a lot of cash to spend on tools. Iím already guessing that Iíll need a crank tool for removing and then reseating the crank?
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
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Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:07 am quote
jackytwoshoes wrote:
I was planning on shaking the primary drive to detect any rattles but maybe I should rebuild it to be sure- only problem is I donít have a lot of cash to spend on tools. Iím already guessing that Iíll need a crank tool for removing and then reseating the crank?
You can get the crank out with a hammer & punch if you're careful about it. tap it out verrry gently. I've done that a few times, but always feel better with a proper extractor and puller.

The things you'll *need* are a heat gun or propane torch, a flywheel puller, assuming you don't have a self-extracting flywheel, which was A) something on older models; and B) something that never worked very well. It sounds like you already have clutch tools.

You'll want some circlip pliers, since I expect that you're going to be changing the cruciform. Cheap ones will get you started, but that's a tool where paying a little more for value makes a big difference convenience-wise.

You'll want some punches or suitably large sockets to use as drifts for any seals or bearings that need replacement, too. You can grind down an old bearing until is seats loosely and use that, too. I use both punches for seals and old bearings for the bearings most of the time.

The Sprint V motor is more difficult to split than a P because it has the one-piece bearing. You'll need to heat the case around the fly-side crank to get it apart.

Most of all, patience is going to be your friend in this adventure.
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:29 am quote
Moto64 wrote:
What are the signs of a bad cush drive ?
a snatching transmission.

my guess is a shitty rebuild.

-g
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Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:37 am quote


my guess, it looks something like this inside....

or, they got the wrong cross, a gear backward, stack isn't shimmed, shift box is fubar'd, or just the clutch is totally fucked out.

i'd start clutch before splitting cases....

-g
Member
'13 LML '70 Sprint Veloce
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Location: London
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:30 pm quote
chandlerman wrote:
always feel better with a proper extractor and puller.
Thanks! Could you point me towards the best value extractor and puller type?
chandlerman wrote:
The things you'll *need* are a heat gun or propane torch, a flywheel puller, assuming you don't have a self-extracting flywheel, which was A) something on older models; and B) something that never worked very well. It sounds like you already have clutch tools.
Yup, I have clutch tools and a flywheel lock and puller. Heat gun I've been thinking about. The space that I have to work in doesn't have a freezer, but I do have access to cans of compressed air which have a mighty cold propellant- think they'd be of use?
chandlerman wrote:
You'll want some circlip pliers, since I expect that you're going to be changing the cruciform. Cheap ones will get you started, but that's a tool where paying a little more for value makes a big difference convenience-wise.
I have some, albeit cheap.
chandlerman wrote:
You'll want some punches or suitably large sockets to use as drifts for any seals or bearings that need replacement, too. You can grind down an old bearing until is seats loosely and use that, too. I use both punches for seals and old bearings for the bearings most of the time.
I need to check what sizes my sockets go up versus how big I need, I think I have everything up to 30mm or so.
chandlerman wrote:
The Sprint V motor is more difficult to split than a P because it has the one-piece bearing. You'll need to heat the case around the fly-side crank to get it apart.
It's a PX motor- phew!
chandlerman wrote:
Most of all, patience is going to be your friend in this adventure.
Amen. Thanks for all your help here chandlerman, although of this info is surely buried somewhere, it's great to have the help gathering my thoughts.
greasy125 wrote:
or, they got the wrong cross, a gear backward, stack isn't shimmed, shift box is fubar'd, or just the clutch is totally fucked out.

i'd start clutch before splitting cases....
I've stripped the clutch and it seems ok. I've experienced a grabby clutch on my LML and knackered cush albeit on different motorbikes, and they don't feel like this, if you check the videos above you notice that you can hold it at this point of metal on metal knashing- a cush would just jerk a bit imho. I'm going with bad shimming, wrong cruciform or gear backward since the previous owner said "the problems started when I replaced the cruciform"

I think we're at the case splitting phase anyway since:
    1:The gearbox is full of petrol
    2:The kickstart teeth feel dodgy
    3: I don't trust the PO's mechanical skills
    4: I want to know that everything is right and I'm up for learning...
    5: ... so that I can do this again on my LML daily.


Whatever the answer to this mystery, I'm hoping y'all will see me right. Onwards!
Member
'13 LML '70 Sprint Veloce
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Posts: 47
Location: London
Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:51 am quote
Could this be the answer? That cruciform looks in the wrong place for the gear- is it upside down?

Also, no washer underneath it?

23714BD7-6F95-469D-B179-B76029AD842C.jpeg

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