NewBie 1961 VBB1 brakes replacement
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VBB1
Joined: 28 Jul 2020
Posts: 6
Location: 92840
Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:48 am quote
Hi Everyone, i'm new to this forum and hoping if someone could help me with the issues, I really appreciated. I tried to replace the front brake for my 1961 VBB1 and i'm stuck. I cant get the hub off after I removed the wheel. Is there a trick to remove this thing without damaging anything?
For the rear brake, after I removed the brake drum, looks like oil have been leaking. I pulled the seal out but all ripped into pieces. Look like i just need to clean it up and replace a new piece. Any thoughts on this would help. Thank you

Last edited by MailManVBB1 on Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:57 am; edited 1 time in total
Member
VBB1
Joined: 28 Jul 2020
Posts: 6
Location: 92840
Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:54 am quote
I forgot to include the images

20200724_150446.jpg

Screenshot_20200725-163650_Chrome.jpg

20200724_143807~2.jpg

Molto Verboso
Honda elite
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Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:39 am quote
maybe a little persuasion with a rubber mallet?
Hooked
1970 180 Rally, 1980 P150X and P200E
Joined: 22 May 2017
Posts: 209
Location: George, South Africa
Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:52 am quote
At the rear: you have to unscrew that nut to do a decent replacement job of the oil seal. Beware: lefthand thread.
Molto Verboso
Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1096
Location: California
Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:33 am quote
doesn't the seal just pop in and out? The reverse thread castle nut is for bearing retain I think.
Addicted
2007 Stella 150
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Posts: 761
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:40 am quote
If you haven't gotten them off yet, did you loosen up both cable adjusters so the brakes shoes are away from the drum?
Hooked
1970 180 Rally, 1980 P150X and P200E
Joined: 22 May 2017
Posts: 209
Location: George, South Africa
Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:56 am quote
Your castle nut is quite damaged, so you are going to damage the oil seal as well. Try to fix the castle nut first.
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VBB1
Joined: 28 Jul 2020
Posts: 6
Location: 92840
Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:58 am quote
Hibbert- i'll try that later. I hope nothing stuck.
Danie- I thought the seal just comes off easily. How do you unscrew that screw?
Christopher- I did loosen the cable and the drum is spinning freely.

I also notice the rear brake backplate is not there. Perhaps the previous owner took it off.
bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5333
Location: So Cal
Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:39 am quote
Thereís a lot of bad stuff going on back there.

The bearing retainer nut looks cracked at 7 oíclock. Thereís a special tool for removing it. Backplate is missing. Splines on the output shaft look a little sketchy and cotter pin hole looks like it might be enlarged.

Iíd get the brakes off, take everything apart, give it a good cleaning, and see whatís what before ordering any parts.

My 2 cents.

Hereís the tool:

http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Factory-Tools/25276600
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1962
Location: Veria, Greece
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:06 pm quote
You forgot the crazy spring
Member
VBB1
Joined: 28 Jul 2020
Posts: 6
Location: 92840
Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:31 pm quote
Thank you so much for the input mates. According to SoCalguy, I should take everything apart, clean them up and see what needs to be replace. Here a better image after I removed the brake and did some clean up.

20200724_154420.jpg

Molto Verboso
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 1475
Location: Siam
Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:43 pm quote
MailManVBB1 wrote:
Thank you so much for the input mates. According to SoCalguy, I should take everything apart, clean them up and see what needs to be replace. Here a better image after I removed the brake and did some clean up.
When I first encountered this retainer nut, mine was trashed (kind of like this one but worse). It had lived a life without ever having the special tool as a friend. It had been punched and hammered into oblivion. Then the crazy spring was discarded along the way which led the the seal failing.

Like Dannie has said, the damaged nut will probably damage the new seal. Even using the special tool will not get that off because the tool will never get a firm grip in those rounded notches. I would take a punch and a hammer and loosen (clockwise). Throw it out and replace with a new nut and seal.

I would install the seal in the new nut before screwing the nut in. Having the tool is best, but if not, then commit the sin and use the hammer and punch in the counter clockwise direction to tighten. Then the crazy spring goes in to hold the seal in place.

If you decide to reuse the tattered nut you have without the spring, the new seal will work its way out and fail again. If you get the spring, it will most likely not fit into the groove in the nut because of the damage it has. Replacing the nut, seal, and adding the spring is the best way to go.
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VBB1
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Posts: 6
Location: 92840
Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:50 pm quote
So if I punch it out, will that damage the bearing as well?
Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1919

Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:08 pm quote
SaFiS wrote:
You forgot the crazy spring
I think the spring is sprung.
You have to have a good sound front end, I'll be dealing with mine in the very near future.
Molto Verboso
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 1475
Location: Siam
Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:04 pm quote
Lynnb wrote:
SaFiS wrote:
You forgot the crazy spring
I think the spring is sprung.
You have to have a good sound front end, I'll be dealing with mine in the very near future.
Itís another crazy spring heís talking about. Itís more like a clip than a spring. Without it, the seal can work its way out. It rests inside a groove in the nut and then the long end sticking out rests in the notches in the nut and engine case that line up. tís this thing:

8EC5D1FA-5E05-42DE-8872-C4E0DA1FBBC1.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 1475
Location: Siam
Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:23 pm quote
MailManVBB1 wrote:
So if I punch it out, will that damage the bearing as well?
No, it wonít. It just holds the bearing in. When I say punch, I mean use a punch, chisel, or old screw driver, and a hammer to loosen the nut.
Molto Verboso
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 1475
Location: Siam
Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:27 pm quote
Anybody remember watching this in elementary school? Golly, I sure do. Unfortunately, I still utilize some of Primitive Peteís habits.

[url]
Molto Verboso
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 1475
Location: Siam
Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:37 pm quote
MailManVBB1 wrote:
I forgot to include the images
What happened to the backplate? Did you remove it, or is it missing?
Your brake shoes have nothing to rest on when they open and close.

AEBC732B-F8A0-40CD-86FF-976F66AE7747.jpeg

Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1919

Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:15 am quote
nomadinsiam wrote:
Lynnb wrote:
SaFiS wrote:
You forgot the crazy spring
I think the spring is sprung.
You have to have a good sound front end, I'll be dealing with mine in the very near future.
Itís another crazy spring heís talking about. Itís more like a clip than a spring. Without it, the seal can work its way out. It rests inside a groove in the nut and then the long end sticking out rests in the notches in the nut and engine case that line up. tís this thing:
Ahh huh , youís have much better eyes than me.
Molto Verboso
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 1475
Location: Siam
Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:36 am quote
Lynnb wrote:
nomadinsiam wrote:
Lynnb wrote:
SaFiS wrote:
You forgot the crazy spring
I think the spring is sprung.
You have to have a good sound front end, I'll be dealing with mine in the very near future.
Itís another crazy spring heís talking about. Itís more like a clip than a spring. Without it, the seal can work its way out. It rests inside a groove in the nut and then the long end sticking out rests in the notches in the nut and engine case that line up. tís this thing:
Ahh huh , youís have much better eyes than me.
Not really. Iíve just been through more torture and suffering perhaps.😂
Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1919

Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:41 am quote
nomadinsiam wrote:
Lynnb wrote:
nomadinsiam wrote:
Lynnb wrote:
SaFiS wrote:
You forgot the crazy spring
I think the spring is sprung.
You have to have a good sound front end, I'll be dealing with mine in the very near future.
Itís another crazy spring heís talking about. Itís more like a clip than a spring. Without it, the seal can work its way out. It rests inside a groove in the nut and then the long end sticking out rests in the notches in the nut and engine case that line up. tís this thing:
Ahh huh , youís have much better eyes than me.
Not really. Iíve just been through more torture and suffering perhaps.😂
Could you possibly have gone through more pain , suffering, set backs and learning curves than me?
We will persevere.
Molto Verboso
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 1475
Location: Siam
Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:23 am quote
Lynnb wrote:
nomadinsiam wrote:
Lynnb wrote:
nomadinsiam wrote:
Lynnb wrote:
SaFiS wrote:
You forgot the crazy spring
I think the spring is sprung.
You have to have a good sound front end, I'll be dealing with mine in the very near future.
Itís another crazy spring heís talking about. Itís more like a clip than a spring. Without it, the seal can work its way out. It rests inside a groove in the nut and then the long end sticking out rests in the notches in the nut and engine case that line up. tís this thing:
Ahh huh , youís have much better eyes than me.
Not really. Iíve just been through more torture and suffering perhaps.😂
Could you possibly have gone through more pain , suffering, set backs and learning curves than me?
We will persevere.
Now that I think about it, maybe not.😁
Molto Verboso
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 1050
Location: Racing Capital of the World
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:00 am quote
nomadinsiam wrote:
MailManVBB1 wrote:
I forgot to include the images
What happened to the backplate? Did you remove it, or is it missing?
Your brake shoes have nothing to rest on when they open and close.
dollars to donuts this is a VN bike. check out the spring on those brake shoes.
No lock washer on the input shaft.
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1962
Location: Veria, Greece
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:23 am quote
GickSpeed wrote:
dollars to donuts this is a VN bike. check out the spring on those brake shoes.
No lock washer on the input shaft.
Thatís why I mentioned the crazy spring. I didnít want to be the one saying it, but I believe that too...
Molto Verboso
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 1475
Location: Siam
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:31 am quote
SaFiS wrote:
GickSpeed wrote:
dollars to donuts this is a VN bike. check out the spring on those brake shoes.
No lock washer on the input shaft.
Thatís why I mentioned the crazy spring. I didnít want to be the one saying it, but I believe that too...
Oh man! That crazy spring! I didnít even see that. That whole set up is fooked.
Molto Verboso
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 1475
Location: Siam
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:36 am quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Thereís a lot of bad stuff going on back there.

The bearing retainer nut looks cracked at 7 oíclock. Thereís a special tool for removing it. Backplate is missing. Splines on the output shaft look a little sketchy and cotter pin hole looks like it might be enlarged.

Iíd get the brakes off, take everything apart, give it a good cleaning, and see whatís what before ordering any parts.

My 2 cents.

Hereís the tool:

http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Factory-Tools/25276600
I need to read more carefully.
Member
61 VBB1T Cushman badged
Joined: 01 Jan 2018
Posts: 17
Location: Folsom CA
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:28 am quote
Re: NewBie 1961 VBB1 brakes replacement
MailManVBB1 wrote:
Hi Everyone, i'm new to this forum and hoping if someone could help me with the issues, I really appreciated. I tried to replace the front brake for my 1961 VBB1 and i'm stuck. I cant get the hub off after I removed the wheel. Is there a trick to remove this thing without damaging anything?
For the rear brake, after I removed the brake drum, looks like oil have been leaking. I pulled the seal out but all ripped into pieces. Look like i just need to clean it up and replace a new piece. Any thoughts on this would help. Thank you
When my brake drum is tough to get off I heat it up before using a rubber mallet (gently) on the backside of it. Works every time.
Member
VBB1
Joined: 28 Jul 2020
Posts: 6
Location: 92840
Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:04 pm quote
You guys are absolutely correct. I found out this is one of the Viet Bodge. I know there's a lot of bad stuffing coming from this beast and I want to make it right. So I took out the front brake drum, beat the hell out of it with a Mallot and finally got it out. Unfortunately, the brake drum warp a little bit. I just ordered the oil seal and new retainer bearing. I need to find a diagram of what's go inside in case if it is missing anything.
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
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Posts: 7799
Location: seattle/athens
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:25 am quote
Ouch, sorry to hear that, it's not good news. Fixing a 'bodge' properly by someone with little experience can get out of hand quick, and you're just getting started. All too often, it's just one thing after another...

Lynnb did it and read all his threads to see what's possible, but he ovekilled it like a boss! Pretty sure he'll see this and share his views. So you might be lucky with yours, and have the knack, but first let's have more pics of the guts of this beast please? You really need a solid frame to start with, that means without a lot of non factory welding. Pull the tank, and let's look there too.

You might want to keep an eye on CraigsList and see if a better bike catches your fancy. You could drop a K into this to get it working ok. Til something else goes haywire anyway. But if you really like to fix stuff.....


PS Maybe call Mercato and ask them to hold your order in case you need more parts?
Addicted
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 761
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:48 am quote
V oodoo wrote:
Ouch, sorry to hear that, it's not good news. Fixing a 'bodge' properly by someone with little experience can get out of hand quick, and you're just getting started. All too often, it's just one thing after another...

Lynnb did it and read all his threads to see what's possible, but he ovekilled it like a boss! Pretty sure he'll see this and share his views. So you might be lucky with yours, and have the knack, but first let's have more pics of the guts of this beast please? You really need a solid frame to start with, that means without a lot of non factory welding. Pull the tank, and let's look there too.

You might want to keep an eye on CraigsList and see if a better bike catches your fancy. You could drop a K into this to get it working ok. Til something else goes haywire anyway. But if you really like to fix stuff.....


PS Maybe call Mercato and ask them to hold your order in case you need more parts?
I agree you need to make sure you have a solid foundation or frame in this case to start with. Fixing things that people did just to flip and sell can get interesting. I've owned several salvage vehicles in my life, I won't buy one someone else fixed to flip or sell. I want to know what went back into it to fix it. Everything I've bought has been bolt on parts of body pieces.
Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1919

Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:10 am quote
V oodoo wrote:
Ouch, sorry to hear that, it's not good news. Fixing a 'bodge' properly by someone with little experience can get out of hand quick, and you're just getting started. All too often, it's just one thing after another...

Lynnb did it and read all his threads to see what's possible, but he ovekilled it like a boss! Pretty sure he'll see this and share his views. So you might be lucky with yours, and have the knack, but first let's have more pics of the guts of this beast please? You really need a solid frame to start with, that means without a lot of non factory welding. Pull the tank, and let's look there too.

You might want to keep an eye on CraigsList and see if a better bike catches your fancy. You could drop a K into this to get it working ok. Til something else goes haywire anyway. But if you really like to fix stuff.....


PS Maybe call Mercato and ask them to hold your order in case you need more parts?
Voodoo is absolutely correct , I won't list all the problems I had to overcome or topics I started but will say if you want to make a bodged scooter "right", my first piece of advice would be to strip right down to the frame and remove paint and start from a bare metal frame to guarantee a safe frame.and front fork and good motor , the rest is how to put it together the right way and the long list of parts you will need. I had Jonathan at Gick Speed do me up a new motor, huge expensive but well worth it. David at Scootermercato is awesome , Steve at Speedo King , Sip and Gick Speed are a must for me , I decided I wanted original and even opted for a more pricey headlite and taillite and speedo and these are all parts I had on the scooter but just something I decided wasn't for me.
You are way better equipped if you're in the U.S. as postal upto Canada is so slow and worse with a Pandemic.
More than anything accept that I had bought a bodge and it was going to be a long expensive road. Just when I thought the long road was ending I had lost interest because of the bodged floor and brake system . Voodoo showed me the way to make it down that road, I had to learn to weld and paint. I now have one step to take care of, another cost but well worth it as it will be a solid scooter.
Only you can decide which road you want to go down. The guys on here are absolutely fantastic and they were all beginners at some point in their lifes and they are more than willing to share their knowledge.


Would you be so brave as to take some very detailed photos of you Vbb1 , front back, closeup , farback , tip it on its side for any under chassis shot etc and we can go from there , more eyes on the subject the better, not to belittle but to help.
Do you have any background in mechanical doings, welding painting ? This all helps and cuts the costs big time, I bought a welder and all the paint equipment , my shop is pretty well equipped , even my neibour that restores cars has been over for using some of my air tools and more upto date welder than he has. Some tools I could resell if needed, but my kids will inherit everything I have.
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