What do you all think of this smallframe Blue Badge?
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'66 Sears Cruisaire Smallframe
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Location: York, PA
Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:32 pm quote
I'm no expert, but... that clutch doesn't look very good.

Hooked
1964 GS160, 1966 90ss, 1976 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 08 Sep 2011
Posts: 340

Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:18 pm quote
r_fostoria wrote:
I'm no expert, but... that clutch doesn't look very good.

That will clean up fine. You're going to throw away the cork plates when you rebuild it, and the rest of the clutch it pretty heavy duty metal. I just rebuilt my clutch today and it wasn't that much better. I soaked everything overnight in CLR and scrubbed all of the rust off with a brass brush.

Those bearings are shot though.

IMG_8704.jpeg

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'66 Sears Cruisaire Smallframe
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Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:24 am quote
I think I ****ed it up. I bought one of the clutch removal tools that inserts into the center of the clutch, and it arrived today. It didn't seem to fit right, but I got impatient and just forced it on there (which I should really know better than) and I'm pretty sure it ended up just stripping out the clutch basket threads. I can't even get it back on there now. Is there an alternative way to go about doing this?
Enthusiast
'66 Sears Cruisaire Smallframe
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Location: York, PA
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:39 pm quote
I jumped to the next step and wiggled the cases apart. I can separate the two halves a decent amount, but the shaft with the clutch seems to be holding both halves together. What is actually holding that in on the other side, a bearing I would guess? Would it just slide out and stay attached if I got the clutch off properly? What is actually holding the clutch in at this point (it is ON there)? It's all a bit frustrating not actually knowing how the engine is designed and what it's supposed to look like when everything comes apart smoothly.
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Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:58 pm quote
r_fostoria wrote:
I jumped to the next step and wiggled the cases apart. I can separate the two halves a decent amount, but the shaft with the clutch seems to be holding both halves together. What is actually holding that in on the other side, a bearing I would guess? Would it just slide out and stay attached if I got the clutch off properly? What is actually holding the clutch in at this point (it is ON there)? It's all a bit frustrating not actually knowing how the engine is designed and what it's supposed to look like when everything comes apart smoothly.
The clutch is holding the cases together. The clutch is on a tapered shaft that's attached to the flyside of the cases. See here: https://youtu.be/tYB7pvLnBu8?t=567. The clutch is held on like the flywheel (tapered) and need that tool to remove. https://youtu.be/tYB7pvLnBu8?t=357
I have no experience removing that clutch without the tool. Did you back out the bolt before installing the clutch removal tool? Also, the threads may have been rusty and needed cleaning before inserting the clutch removal tool. How did you get the tool on, by hammering or turning with force? If you can't remove the tool and the cases are somewhat back together, maybe you can hit the tool on the side and knock the clutch loose. I'm sure this is not a first on a rebuild and someone will pop in with better suggestions.

If you get the clutch off, watch that entire video...a couple of times. Although it's in a foreign language, what he's doing needs no translation. That video will def give you an idea what stuff supposed to look like when everything comes apart smoothly and how to get it back together. Also, don't forget to just walk away and come back later when things aren't going well with opening a motor or any type of fixes on these things. Post a question before adding to much force. We've all been there and can understand the frustrations of doing this type of stuff the 1st time.

Throw up some pics of where you're at.....we like pictures and may help with solving the problem.
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'66 Sears Cruisaire Smallframe
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Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:34 pm quote
rowdyc wrote:
The clutch is holding the cases together. The clutch is on a tapered shaft that's attached to the flyside of the cases. See here: https://youtu.be/tYB7pvLnBu8?t=567. The clutch is held on like the flywheel (tapered) and need that tool to remove. https://youtu.be/tYB7pvLnBu8?t=357
I have no experience removing that clutch without the tool. Did you back out the bolt before installing the clutch removal tool? Also, the threads may have been rusty and needed cleaning before inserting the clutch removal tool. How did you get the tool on, by hammering or turning with force? If you can't remove the tool and the cases are somewhat back together, maybe you can hit the tool on the side and knock the clutch loose. I'm sure this is not a first on a rebuild and someone will pop in with better suggestions.

If you get the clutch off, watch that entire video...a couple of times. Although it's in a foreign language, what he's doing needs no translation. That video will def give you an idea what stuff supposed to look like when everything comes apart smoothly and how to get it back together. Also, don't forget to just walk away and come back later when things aren't going well with opening a motor or any type of fixes on these things. Post a question before adding to much force. We've all been there and can understand the frustrations of doing this type of stuff the 1st time.

Throw up some pics of where you're at.....we like pictures and may help with solving the problem.
Yeah, I took the bolt out of the tool entirely. The first time I tried, I spun the tool in there and then started turning it, although it took enough force that I should have realized something was off. It must have been cross threaded or something, it was like trying to put a course thread nut on a fine thread bolt. I got it on there a good amount, threaded the bolt in, started to tighten and POP! But it wasn't the pop of the clutch popping off the shaft, it was the tool popping off the flywheel threads. Now I can't even get it to thread back on there. I put it on and it just spins.

I went out to the garage to snap some pics and try the side-hammer thing you mentioned, and after a few light whacks the whole thing sort of exploded, so now it's a lot easier to see whats going on there. All the clutch plated were basically glued together. Here's the case split with the clutch holding everything together. Check out that primordial ooze in there. Once I split the cases, everything pretty much freed up and now everything rotates properly, including the kickstarter, so either something was wedged in there or it was just really really gummed up. If I ever get this freaking clutch carrier off, we'll find out!



Here's what it looks like now with everything out of the way:

Molto Verboso
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Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:35 am quote
Those threads look fine to me in the picture. What do the threads on the tool look like?
Sergeant at Arms
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Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:50 am quote
It looks like the securing tab washer is still in place.

Threads look fine.

Pull that metal out and you should be good to go.

-g
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'66 Sears Cruisaire Smallframe
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Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:07 am quote
greasy125 wrote:
It looks like the securing tab washer is still in place.

Threads look fine.

Pull that metal out and you should be good to go.

-g
Why do you say that? There is a washer that came off with the nut. when I look at the surface there, it's clearly machined metal, and if I look at the side of the 45 degree indent, there is no seam like there are two parts there. There isn't anything to come off.

Hypothetically, shouldn't I be able to hit the shaft with a hammer, and have it move inward, instead of using the tool to move the clutch outward?
Molto Verboso
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Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:13 am quote
Hypothetically you are correct about holding the clutch and hitting the shaft with a hammer. You are most likely going to ruin the shaft as the metal will get smashed and expand, ruining the threads on the shaft.

I'm still curios what your tool threads looks like, as the threads in the picture appear to be good.
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'66 Sears Cruisaire Smallframe
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Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:38 am quote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
Hypothetically you are correct about holding the clutch and hitting the shaft with a hammer. You are most likely going to ruin the shaft as the metal will get smashed and expand, ruining the threads on the shaft.

I'm still curios what your tool threads looks like, as the threads in the picture appear to be good.
The tool had some smooshed threads so I ground it down with an angle grinder past that point but it still does nothing. I just tried putting the bolt from it on the end of the shaft and gave it a few hammers and nothing happened. So I gave it a few heavy blows with the hammer. Nothing. Nothing is happening. what is going on? What is holding that basket on there? I really hit it hard.
Molto Verboso
Vespa
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Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:40 am quote
It's been a while since I've been around a small frame but it does appear in the photo something that looks like a tab at 10 O'clock. Maybe put the nut back on and gently tap to get the shaft moving off the clutch bell.

The first time I worked on one my father helped. He used a shovel and the length of the handle to press down on the pressure plate so I could put the retainer clip on over the new Malossi clutch spring we installed. Wow good memory. Later I would use a drill press with the motor in it to press the clutch in.
bodgemaster
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Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:57 am quote
r_fostoria wrote:
greasy125 wrote:
It looks like the securing tab washer is still in place.

Threads look fine.

Pull that metal out and you should be good to go.

-g
Why do you say that? There is a washer that came off with the nut. when I look at the surface there, it's clearly machined metal, and if I look at the side of the 45 degree indent, there is no seam like there are two parts there. There isn't anything to come off.

Hypothetically, shouldn't I be able to hit the shaft with a hammer, and have it move inward, instead of using the tool to move the clutch outward?
greasy is right (again). The tabbed washer’s still on there ... see pic below. Pry it off. Then use the puller tool.

It looks like everything is crusted in old grease and rust. Before going further I’d clean suggest you clean it up with degreaser and soak it in some PB blaster or similar.

Pounding on the shaft isn’t a great idea. The clutch bell mounts on the tapered input shaft - the “christmas tree” - which is a set of gears on the other side of the case. You could damage them or the output gears.

And to answer your question, yes the clutch basket is just a taper fit. It gets pressed on the shaft when the nut is tightened. There’s also a woodruff key on the shaft so watch for that.

B16C6A29-4E4B-4D9C-95B5-362982CCCA9A.jpeg

Sergeant at Arms
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Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:38 pm quote
oof. look... don't know what you're talking about on hammering.

on the cases to separate, sure. little persuasion.

but on the clutch? nah. the puller, if used correctly should more than do the job.

you still got a tab washer in there. yank it and get a decent puller and you should be rock and roll.

-g
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'66 Sears Cruisaire Smallframe
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Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:27 am quote
greasy125 wrote:
It looks like everything is crusted in old grease and rust. Before going further I’d clean suggest you clean it up with degreaser and soak it in some PB blaster or similar.
Hurry, it came off! This was the correct answer after all. After soaking everything in penetrating fluid for a few days, I got another clutch puller tool and really took my time this time slowly threading it on, backing it off and cleaning the threads. Once it was all the way on there, it really did take a tremendous amount of torque, but it did pop off. Pheww, what a relief. This was definitely an amateur fumble for sure, but now I know. I need to be more patient with it going forward. I've been stuck at home all week because I woke up with a fever on Saturday, so I've spent too much time with nothing to do worrying about that clutch. I'm so glad it's solved!

That washer wasn't actually on there either, so I don't know what that tab looking thing was but I definitely see it too. Oh well, it doesn't matter anymore.
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'66 Sears Cruisaire Smallframe
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Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:38 am quote
Actually, I see what the problem was. At some point, so much force was put on the stuck clutch, it sheared through its own woodruff key and rotated against the input shaft, squishing everything together. Yes, the rest of the woodruff key was still seated in the clutch basket.


So, I guess I needed to replace that anyway!
Molto Verboso
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Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:37 pm quote
r_fostoria wrote:
Actually, I see what the problem was. At some point, so much force was put on the stuck clutch, it sheared through its own woodruff key and rotated against the input shaft, squishing everything together. Yes, the rest of the woodruff key was still seated in the clutch basket.


So, I guess I needed to replace that anyway!
It looks like you beat on the end of that shaft with a hammer. The first few threads are mashed, that's why you don't do that, if you want to keep it. You can try cleaning it up with a file and then a die. Not sure how many of the threads you need.
Sergeant at Arms
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Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:45 pm quote
nah man, that's wasted get a new one. and a new matching basket and assorted bits.

it's already apart, and besides the threads being wasted the shaft is totally waxed as well, which means the basket is roached.

i'd turn it into a positive and look at it as a reason to upgrade.

drt tree with a closer ratio 4th, maybe a bgm or xl2 basket with better things and stuffs.

that's building blocks. anything you do from there won't likely destroy any of that but only compliment the rest of the build.

but let's see what the rest of that motor looks like first...

-g
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Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:25 pm quote
Glad you got it out! Could have done worst with a 1st engine split. Keep watching those videos and asking questions so closing the cases will not become an issue.

Good luck!
Molto Verboso
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Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:39 am quote
I’ve got stock VNA1 layshafts for you, though I recommend a short 4th version over stock. I also have a Malossi ET3 cigar style exhaust I'd part with. Looks sweet on a smallstate.
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'66 Sears Cruisaire Smallframe
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Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:35 am quote
scootermarc69 wrote:
I’ve got stock VNA1 layshafts for you, though I recommend a short 4th version over stock. I also have a Malossi ET3 cigar style exhaust I'd part with. Looks sweet on a smallstate.
Oh, nice. I definitely need a new layshaft. I've never actually ridden a Vespa before, so I think I should start with something close to the factory spec.

I have the motor stripped down almost all the way now. There's a stubborn intake stud that I haven't been able to get out, a broken clutch cover stud (maybe why the clutch compartment looked so grungy?), the blind layshaft bearing which I have a puller kit coming in for, and the breather. How do you get that off? It's shaped like a rounded nut from the start so I don't know the correct way to approach that.

Cleaning these up is a real job. It's very oily and dirty, and the inside of the case is coated in a thick, rubbery sludge. And advice on the best way to go about cleaning? I had it soaking in hot soapy water in the sink this morning and got a good amount of it off, but I don't know if there's a more efficient method.

It also looks like this is a replacement engine. I uncovered the serial number, and it doesn't match the frame number, though it is a VMA1M.








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Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:09 am quote
r_fostoria wrote:
I have the motor stripped down almost all the way now. There's a stubborn intake stud that I haven't been able to get out, a broken clutch cover stud (maybe why the clutch compartment looked so grungy?), the blind layshaft bearing which I have a puller kit coming in for, and the breather. How do you get that off? It's shaped like a rounded nut from the start so I don't know the correct way to approach that.
Your breather looks like an acorn, but it's removable with a socket.

As for the stud, put 2 nuts on it, tighten them so they jam against each other, then use a wrench on the bottom one. You should never remove studs with pliers. It gacks up the threads.

For general de-grunging, I like kerosene.

For that snapped off bolt, there's enough sticking out to slot it. Use a pneumatic cutoff wheel or dremel (carefully!) to cut a slot for your biggest screwdriver. Use heat and penetrating oil (I prefer brake fluid) to unfreeze it, then screw it out.


Best,
-Slashy

Last edited by GoSlash27 on Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Viet-bodge
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Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:22 am quote
Oh, and for future reference... if you ever need to hammer something that's threaded, put a nut on it and hammer the nut.

Best,
-Slashy
Molto Verboso
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Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:20 pm quote
Vespa frame and engine #'s won't match. It's original. The clutch cover should be held on with bolts not studs. Vapor blasting is the very best way to clean those cases. Simple Green and a stiff brush should do the trick though not as pretty in the end. Heat, penetrant and patience on the broken and stuck studs. some heat cycles and even using computer dust remover spray to freeze the stud. You want to break the connection and get the penetrant in there. Be willing to do this over the course of days. Id stay away from that stud with a cutoff wheel myself, too easy to slip and mar the case. I have a small vice grip that would grab that. It's like 4" long. Good work getting the taper pin out of the shifting yoke, that can be problematic. Pm me your shipping address and I'll get youth layshaft. The original K/S gear spring mechaism was superseded by a conical spring and concave washer arrangement. You should update that. The floor rails are unique to this model and you won't likely find replacements so treat them well. FYI, one unique thing about the small state , it is one inch shorter in the cockpit and thus wheelbase. Sold in Italy at the time as the Nuova, but with a different seat and badging and tail light. Oh yeah, those tail lights are precious too.
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'66 Sears Cruisaire Smallframe
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Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:23 am quote
GoSlash27 wrote:
Your breather looks like an acorn, but it's removable with a socket.
You're right, it came right off no problem with a socket.
Quote:
As for the stud, put 2 nuts on it, tighten them so they jam against each other, then use a wrench on the bottom one. You should never remove studs with pliers. It gacks up the threads.
That's how I got the others out, but the 10mm nuts I needed for the throttle stud were too wimpy to get the job done. They just kept slipping. I need to get some better hardware.
Quote:
For general de-grunging, I like kerosene.
I'll give it a try!
scootermarc69 wrote:
Vespa frame and engine #'s won't match. It's original.
Oh, nice!
Quote:
The clutch cover should be held on with bolts not studs
Oh yeah, that's what I meant. I guess it turned into a stud when the head broke off. Either way, with heat + vice grips + wiggling back and forth I was able to successfully get it out of there.
Quote:
Vapor blasting is the very best way to clean those cases. Simple Green and a stiff brush should do the trick though not as pretty in the end.
I read that Simple Green is corrosive to aluminum. Is that true?
Quote:
Good work getting the taper pin out of the shifting yoke, that can be problematic.
Yes, I was worried about that, but it came out pretty easily. Unfortunately, my bat had one of its wings clipped at some point. Can this part be bought somewhere? Everywhere I look, you have to buy the entire shifting mechanism with it.

Quote:
The floor rails are unique to this model and you won't likely find replacements so treat them well. FYI, one unique thing about the small state , it is one inch shorter in the cockpit and thus wheelbase.
Huh, I didn't know that. It that the case for all the '66 and earlier smallframes, or just that one model?
Hooked
1964 GS160, 1966 90ss, 1976 Sprint Veloce
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Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:42 am quote
r_fostoria wrote:
Huh, I didn't know that. It that the case for all the '66 and earlier smallframes, or just that one model?
I'll try to get this right.

The earliest smallframes have a small engine door and short wheelbase. The "Unificata" frames have a larger engine door and short wheelbase. The "Extended" frames have a 2cm longer wheelbase and, eventually, a hex badge.

The Sears blue badge is Unificata. It's the only Unificata that was widely sold in the USA. However, there are several European models based on the Unificata frame.

I think in Italian it's "piccolo,unificata,allungata"

I found more info here:

https://www.vesparesources.com/topic/67784-differenza-tra-50n-sportellino-piccolounificataallungata/
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Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:29 pm quote
r_fostoria wrote:
I read that Simple Green is corrosive to aluminum. Is that true?
Indeed it is. That's why I don't recommend it. If you don't mind the discoloration it should be fine, but I recommend trying kerosene first.

Best,
-Slashy
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'66 Sears Cruisaire Smallframe
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Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:29 pm quote
Uh oh... I uncovered this nasty looking crack in the casing. Is there anything to be done here, or do I need to replace the case half?







I also found this small hole on the other side of one of the engine casing stud locations.

Molto Verboso
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
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Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:00 pm quote
Bummer. That’s from someone who believes that if they just kicked the lever harder the thing would start. Had the same on one of mine. A very good machinist and welder fixed mine, but it’s a very specialized endeavor and yours looks worse than mine. The hole where the stud is shouldn’t be a problem, but you could use some sealant on the threads if it makes you feel better.
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'66 Sears Cruisaire Smallframe
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Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:08 pm quote
scootermarc69 wrote:
Bummer. That’s from someone who believes that if they just kicked the lever harder the thing would start. Had the same on one of mine. A very good machinist and welder fixed mine, but it’s a very specialized endeavor and yours looks worse than mine. The hole where the stud is shouldn’t be a problem, but you could use some sealant on the threads if it makes you feel better.
So it's hypothetically fixable then? If not, I don't really know what I'm going to do. I can't find any used cases, and the new ones are too expensive to be financially viable. I'm afraid I might have to write the whole thing off.
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Viet-bodge
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Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:33 pm quote
The big question with cracks is "is it structurally compromising, or just a potential leak".
Just going by what you've shown in the pics, it's probably not going to bear any loads. If that's the case, you can just hit it up with some JB Weld and carry on.
If it is a potential weak spot, you can always get it brazed. Nothing there needs to be machined to a tolerance other than the gasket mating surface.

If you have a machinist in your neighborhood, Take both halves of the case to him (or her) and get their opinion/ price estimate.

Sorry to hear the bad news.

Best,
-Slashy
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'66 Sears Cruisaire Smallframe
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Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:50 pm quote
GoSlash27 wrote:
The big question with cracks is "is it structurally compromising, or just a potential leak".
Just going by what you've shown in the pics, it's probably not going to bear any loads. If that's the case, you can just hit it up with some JB Weld and carry on.
If it is a potential weak spot, you can always get it brazed. Nothing there needs to be machined to a tolerance other than the gasket mating surface.

If you have a machinist in your neighborhood, Take both halves of the case to him (or her) and get their opinion/ price estimate.

Sorry to hear the bad news.

Best,
-Slashy
Well, that's a bit encouraging at least. I'll call around tomorrow and see if any local places can help me out. Thanks.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
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Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:08 pm quote
Joe Casola, Saints Cycle Works is your man. Send him some pics. That crack is where the k/s quadrant lands when you kick it. There should be a rubber bumper there to cushion the impact and also should never kick a Vespa . Step thru should be all it takes

Last edited by scootermarc69 on Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
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Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:13 pm quote
https://www.saintsengine.com/
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'66 Sears Cruisaire Smallframe
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Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:24 pm quote
scootermarc69 wrote:
Joe Casola, Saints Cycle Works is your man. Send him some pics. That crack is where the k/s quadrant lands when you kick it. There should be a rubber bumper there to cushion the impact and also should never kick a Vespa . Step thru should be all it takes

https://www.saintsengine.com/
Molto Verboso
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 1994
Location: Santa Margarita,Ca.
Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:29 pm quote
This guy has an extra case half though mixing case half’s is not recommended as the are line bored as a set and unless it’s also VMA1 there may be production changes. Might inquire. I’d still recommend Joe. He likes challenges but I don think this would be terribly difficult for him.
http://scoot.net/classifieds/forsale.html?id=68016
Molto Verboso
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
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Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:33 pm quote
Joe can vapor blast them too
Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
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Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:01 pm quote
Gick Speed may have a casing if you need one.
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x 2), 74 Primavera (x 2), 06 Fly 150
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Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:48 pm quote
I have a set of smallie cases. pm me.
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 150
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Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:59 am quote
Lynnb wrote:
Gick Speed may have a casing if you need one.
I've also seen some nice welding of aluminum from Gick, might give him a call also. He has experience with these cases and scooters.
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