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My brother forgot to transfer his motorcycle license when he moved to Texas from Nevada since he didn't have a bike at the time. When his kids were old enough for school he decided to get his motorcycle license back. After looking at the requirement in Texas as the time of having to ride to the test within eyesight of a person with a motorcycle license and provide a car with licensed driver and proof of insurance to follow during the motorcycle on the bike test he decided it was simpler to take the MSF course. He was 44 at the time and had been riding since a teenager. He told me that there were several things he learned in that class that he had either forgotten or never learned in the first place. When his wife who also failed to transfer her motorcycle license went to get hers back she also took the class as it meant she didn't have to miss work. She said the same thing.
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 GTS
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Harbinger wrote: old as dirt wrote: TroutBum wrote: Max, you have the skills and would not benefit much from the basic course. Sign-up for the advanced class. It's worth the $. The basic is great for those who have never ridden or have little experience, but if you have ridden for a year or more, and you have, it's a waste of time in my opinion. I have personally taught many of riders who have rode for years. After the class 95% came up to me and said they were amazed at how much they DID NOT know until they completed the class. the advance class is a building block on top of the beginner class and folks can benefit even more if they take the beginner class first. From my experience the advanced classes are smaller and more tuned to the skill of the rider. I took a few where the students that needed extra attention on the basics were given it while we moved on to more advanced techniques. They were pretty progressive that way. On group rides the instructors would look for different aspects to teach us based on skill. I'd usually get pulled up with the top group and we'd work on harder tasks than some other riders. Not touting my own horn as TBH I did them on my Vespa and certain tasks are easier on one. I'm considering taking a few again on the K1600 but my fear is dropping a very expensive bike and I want to work through a number of the skills myself first. Sure as hell not taking a course until I have the drop bars installed! For the Ural I had to 100% self tech and I did a good job thanks to a lot of the drills crossing over. None of the schools really felt they had a qualified instructor to teach me and that's fair enough and very honest of them. They are a different beast. there is many many many more questions for a person who can make a vehicle go down the road. like I said before I have taught MANY folks whom have had YEARS of riding and 95% have told me they learned some new things they were not aware of. This was in the basic class they took BTW. folks who came to the advance class who had the year or so riding and never took the beginner class struggled hard to complete the skills, where as the riders who went thru the basic class and 6 months later came back picked up the info and skills VERY VERY quickly. most of the time embarrassing the OLD skilled folks who KNEW how to RIDE. just because you can run it doesn't make you a marathoner.
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
2023 Arancia Impulsivo Vespa GTS300 HPE , 2022 BMW R1250GSA 40th Anniversary, 2019 Ural Gear Up
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Sure, I could see a lot o riders never having learnt the basics or forgetting many of them. Happened to me when I took it even though I had a about 15 year so riding. Of course I'd built up a number of bad habits. It was certainly helpful, I will admit that.
I did a little look around and we have schools that offer "refresher" courses and they tend to be cheaper as the advanced classes. I see them as handy and may have my wife take one. Some differences in training but minor. Really it comes down to techniques. Turning and cornering are handled a bit differently say for instance trail braking will not be addressed at all in a beginner class. Covering the brake and clutch also not really addressed as I suppose they don't want a beginner focused on that and some instructors believe in it and some less so. Personally I almost always have 2 fingers on my front brake and often on the clutch. Using the friction zone is also something not really taught to a beginner but key for proper riding technique. Some apply to a scooter and some do not of course. I find having a bike with shift assist the best of both worlds. It is all motorcycle when you want it to be be but you can blip through the gears almost as if it is a CVT if you want . |
Ossessionato
2012 Kymco Like 200i (Sold), 2018 FLSL
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old as dirt wrote: TroutBum wrote: Max, you have the skills and would not benefit much from the basic course. Sign-up for the advanced class. It's worth the $. The basic is great for those who have never ridden or have little experience, but if you have ridden for a year or more, and you have, it's a waste of time in my opinion. I have personally taught many of riders who have rode for years. After the class 95% came up to me and said they were amazed at how much they DID NOT know until they completed the class. the advance class is a building block on top of the beginner class and folks can benefit even more if they take the beginner class first. |
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In Michigan you can take the course at a local community college for $50. Those are cancelled this season due to COVID. The only other option is to take the course offered by several local Harley dealers for $325.
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
2023 Arancia Impulsivo Vespa GTS300 HPE , 2022 BMW R1250GSA 40th Anniversary, 2019 Ural Gear Up
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FrankNBrew wrote: In Michigan you can take the course at a local community college for $50. Those are cancelled this season due to COVID. The only other option is to take the course offered by several local Harley dealers for $325. https://www.schoolcraft.edu/cepd/motorcycle-safety https://www.delta.edu/community/continuing-education/motorcycle.html |
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The courses are still in full effect here in NYC. I'm doing a 2-basic course b/c it's been over 10 years since I rode. Had the first lesson today and I can say that it's for sure worth it. I was a putz when I rode many years ago.
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So I met with the MSF gentleman and we took an early evening ride last night. He praised my riding style but told me I was speeding too much.
He clarified a few points: A. Because I have had my M endorsementfor over one year I should be able to qualify for the advanced course. B. They provide the bikes and they are all shifties. So I am disappointed because I don't know how to ride a manual transmission and don't have the slightest desire to do so. Questions remain such as why can I not ride my own insured bike? Why don't they have automatic transmission bikes available? |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2023 Arancia Impulsivo Vespa GTS300 HPE , 2022 BMW R1250GSA 40th Anniversary, 2019 Ural Gear Up
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Max6200 wrote: So I met with the MSF gentleman and we took an early evening ride last night. He praised my riding style but told me I was speeding too much. He clarified a few points: A. Because I have had my M endorsementfor over one year I should be able to qualify for the advanced course. B. They provide the bikes and they are all shifties. So I am disappointed because I don't know how to ride a manual transmission and don't have the slightest desire to do so. Questions remain such as why can I not ride my own insured bike? Why don't they have automatic transmission bikes available? |
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Molto Verboso
Vespa PX 177 Settantesimo, Vespa GTS Super 300 HPE, Triumph Bobber Gold Line
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Molto Verboso
Vespa PX 177 Settantesimo, Vespa GTS Super 300 HPE, Triumph Bobber Gold Line
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I know what you mean. In the UK there is no way to ride a 300cc Vespa without gaining a license on a manual transmission bike even if you never plan to get one.
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
2023 Arancia Impulsivo Vespa GTS300 HPE , 2022 BMW R1250GSA 40th Anniversary, 2019 Ural Gear Up
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johnymoore wrote: I know what you mean. In the UK there is no way to ride a 300cc Vespa without gaining a license on a manual transmission bike even if you never plan to get one. |
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The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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johnymoore wrote: I know what you mean. In the UK there is no way to ride a 300cc Vespa without gaining a license on a manual transmission bike even if you never plan to get one. But essentially - yes, the UK licensing regulations have become horrifically and unnecessarily burdensome. |
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2023 Arancia Impulsivo Vespa GTS300 HPE , 2022 BMW R1250GSA 40th Anniversary, 2019 Ural Gear Up
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jimc wrote: But essentially - yes, the UK licensing regulations have become horrifically and unnecessarily burdensome. |
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Molto Verboso
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Harbinger wrote: say for instance trail braking will not be addressed at all in a beginner class. <- WAS TOUCHED ON IN MY MSF COURSE Covering the brake and clutch also not really addressed as I suppose they don't want a beginner focused on that <- WAS ADDRESSED IN MINE Using the friction zone is also something not really taught to a beginner but key for proper riding technique. <- VERY HEAVILY EMPHASIZED IN MINE. |
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2023 Arancia Impulsivo Vespa GTS300 HPE , 2022 BMW R1250GSA 40th Anniversary, 2019 Ural Gear Up
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Juan_ORhea wrote: Harbinger wrote: say for instance trail braking will not be addressed at all in a beginner class. <- WAS TOUCHED ON IN MY MSF COURSE Covering the brake and clutch also not really addressed as I suppose they don't want a beginner focused on that <- WAS ADDRESSED IN MINE Using the friction zone is also something not really taught to a beginner but key for proper riding technique. <- VERY HEAVILY EMPHASIZED IN MINE. |
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The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Harbinger wrote: jimc wrote: But essentially - yes, the UK licensing regulations have become horrifically and unnecessarily burdensome. |
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2021 GTS 300 HPE +2013 GTS 300ie + 294 Polini
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In South Africa, if you take your driving test in/on an automatic vehicle,
your licence is endorsed "automatic only" and you would need to restart and retest from learners stage in order to drive / ride a manual. A real PITA when you can just use a manual and be able to use both. |
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2023 Arancia Impulsivo Vespa GTS300 HPE , 2022 BMW R1250GSA 40th Anniversary, 2019 Ural Gear Up
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Fudmucker wrote: In South Africa, if you take your driving test in/on an automatic vehicle, your licence is endorsed "automatic only" and you would need to restart and retest from learners stage in order to drive / ride a manual. A real PITA when you can just use a manual and be able to use both. |
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Harbinger wrote: Fudmucker wrote: In South Africa, if you take your driving test in/on an automatic vehicle, your licence is endorsed "automatic only" and you would need to restart and retest from learners stage in order to drive / ride a manual. A real PITA when you can just use a manual and be able to use both. |
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The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Harbinger wrote: Many modern bikes now offer quick shifters as an option which simplifies the process as you do not even need to pull in the clutch. My UK licence is for automatics only - my US one is for anything. |
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2023 Arancia Impulsivo Vespa GTS300 HPE , 2022 BMW R1250GSA 40th Anniversary, 2019 Ural Gear Up
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jimc wrote: Harbinger wrote: Many modern bikes now offer quick shifters as an option which simplifies the process as you do not even need to pull in the clutch. My UK licence is for automatics only - my US one is for anything. |
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In Florida the MSF is required for MC endorsement. Those are the rules and that's that. I was grandfathered in I guess because they think I'm old.
If you don't know how to shift a manual motorcycle they will teach you how to. If thinking learning to shift on a closed course with instructors is too difficult you may want to reconsider riding any PTW. Compared with many other countries the US is pretty easy and cheap to get it done. Two days and you're done. No 125cc restrictions, L plates, extra exams. You can go ride a 1600 cc bike the next day. Personally I also think it's a good idea that anyone that rides distances with a group should know how to ride a manual. You're out on a ride, stupid stuff happens. Your buddy is hurt but his bike is rideable you're ok but your scooter is wrecked, add in no cell service and you don't have a Spot you're stuck. No possibility of taking the manual bike to go get help or even a signal. |
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Harbinger wrote: Huh.. that is interesting and may explain why some manufacturers do things the way they do. So for instance while my BMW may have a quick shifter it is still a "manual" as there is an operational clutch and you must use it at least going from neutral to first but could absolutely also use it all the time if you wanted to. Where does a Goldwing with DCT fit in I wonder? The rules really can be so strange at times... |
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ScooterRaton wrote: In Florida the MSF is required for MC endorsement. Those are the rules and that's that. I was grandfathered in I guess because they think I'm old. If you don't know how to shift a manual motorcycle they will teach you how to. If thinking learning to shift on a closed course with instructors is too difficult you may want to reconsider riding any PTW. Compared with many other countries the US is pretty easy and cheap to get it done. Two days and you're done. No 125cc restrictions, L plates, extra exams. You can go ride a 1600 cc bike the next day. Personally I also think it's a good idea that anyone that rides distances with a group should know how to ride a manual. You're out on a ride, stupid stuff happens. Your buddy is hurt but his bike is rideable you're ok but your scooter is wrecked, add in no cell service and you don't have a Spot you're stuck. No possibility of taking the manual bike to go get help or even a signal. Oh and they talked about friction zone in the MSF course we took in Texas. My youngest son said that is why he has no interest in riding a manual motorcycle ever again. |
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The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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I love it that most Americans get frightened by 'the friction zone' and can't drive a manual ("stick-shift") car - it makes theft of our Westfalia van far less likely - though I've added a kill-switch anyway.
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2023 Arancia Impulsivo Vespa GTS300 HPE , 2022 BMW R1250GSA 40th Anniversary, 2019 Ural Gear Up
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TBH a manual motorcycle is very easy to learn. It's usually a simple one down for first then up, up , up until you run out of gears. You can literally learn how to do it in less than half an hour comfortably and if you can walk and chew gum you can figure it out. The downside? Yes it is one more thing to concern yourself with and if you are happy riding scooters only then you need not concern yourself with it. However I do think it is a handy skill to have and does open up more opportunities should you want to add a motorcycle to the mix down the road.
In the last 3 years I've taught myself how to ride all over again after. along break starting with a 300CC Vespa. Then added a large 650CC "scooter", then a 7500CC sidecar rig and now have a 1649CC 160 HP motorcycle. You know what? It's been a lot of fun and challenging yourself can be fun. The biggest help along the journey has been professional training which here at least is not expensive and you learn so, so much. |
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The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Agreed. I owned a manual 125 HD in the UK for a couple of years - but I wasn't going to shell out the £800+ it would have cost to convert my licence to 'everything' instead of 'just automatic'. The cost is involved because I'd have to pay a training school to get me used to a 600cc manual bike and then accompany me to the testing grounds. (there are two separate tests).
The operation of a manual is a piece of piss to anyone who is used to manual transmissions in other vehicles. Once you've learned how the clutch bites (the friction zone) you're golden. Should take about five minutes of parking lot practice. |
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LX190 Friday afternoon special, Primavera, some pushbikes
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jimc wrote: I love it that most Americans get frightened by 'the friction zone' and can't drive a manual ("stick-shift") car - it makes theft of our Westfalia van far less likely - though I've added a kill-switch anyway. Hey Max, when people whinge about the cost of helmets we ask them what their heads are worth. MSF is about saving your ass. Whats you ass worth? |
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The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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znomit wrote: jimc wrote: I love it that most Americans get frightened by 'the friction zone' and can't drive a manual ("stick-shift") car - it makes theft of our Westfalia van far less likely - though I've added a kill-switch anyway. |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2023 Arancia Impulsivo Vespa GTS300 HPE , 2022 BMW R1250GSA 40th Anniversary, 2019 Ural Gear Up
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jimc wrote: znomit wrote: jimc wrote: I love it that most Americans get frightened by 'the friction zone' and can't drive a manual ("stick-shift") car - it makes theft of our Westfalia van far less likely - though I've added a kill-switch anyway. |
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Molto Verboso
Vespa PX 177 Settantesimo, Vespa GTS Super 300 HPE, Triumph Bobber Gold Line
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Molto Verboso
Vespa PX 177 Settantesimo, Vespa GTS Super 300 HPE, Triumph Bobber Gold Line
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jimc wrote: Agreed. I owned a manual 125 HD in the UK for a couple of years - but I wasn't going to shell out the £800+ it would have cost to convert my licence to 'everything' instead of 'just automatic'. The cost is involved because I'd have to pay a training school to get me used to a 600cc manual bike and then accompany me to the testing grounds. (there are two separate tests). The operation of a manual is a piece of piss to anyone who is used to manual transmissions in other vehicles. Once you've learned how the clutch bites (the friction zone) you're golden. Should take about five minutes of parking lot practice. |
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My son decided he wanted to ride a bike when he was 17. Due to the lack of training that rented machines, it cost me a mint. The course I didn't begrudge at all, him trashing the CBF125 was a different matter...all fixable, but plastic isn't cheap
It was a happy day in this house when his licence expired after two years. I tried to teach him roadcraft - but anybody with a teenage son will appreciate the problems apprentice men have with listening to their fathers! TLDR: training is a good thing. |
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2023 Arancia Impulsivo Vespa GTS300 HPE , 2022 BMW R1250GSA 40th Anniversary, 2019 Ural Gear Up
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johnymoore wrote: jimc wrote: Agreed. I owned a manual 125 HD in the UK for a couple of years - but I wasn't going to shell out the £800+ it would have cost to convert my licence to 'everything' instead of 'just automatic'. The cost is involved because I'd have to pay a training school to get me used to a 600cc manual bike and then accompany me to the testing grounds. (there are two separate tests). The operation of a manual is a piece of piss to anyone who is used to manual transmissions in other vehicles. Once you've learned how the clutch bites (the friction zone) you're golden. Should take about five minutes of parking lot practice. Now how this ties in to the MSF course and training. The training I received works for ALL the bikes even though they are very, very different. Sure with a sidecar some things do not translate but a surprising amount does. Same goes for operating a CVT or manual and 24HP or 160HP. I use the same techniques over and over again and my advice is if you can learn on a shifty. The skills will translate and you can practice on your own with an automatic with the only real difference being no need to worry about a clutch. The benefit is if you do down the road want to try a bike you have had the practice plus it gives you the confidence in knowing you can ride any PTW you set your mind to. |
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS (on the bench) 2017 BV 350
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2007 LX150 2015 GTS (on the bench) 2017 BV 350
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As far as shifting for the MSF, I'd ridden a 50cc motorcycle as a teenager, then 40+years passed before I bought a scooter. Taking the course for my license, I found shifting to be nearly routine for me after 5 minutes. Glad I got to go at it again.
As for learning the friction zone, I tried teaching my niece to shift (sister's idea)...after a half dozen lugging starts and kills, I decided to drive home. Tried to teach my GF to drive manual to save $800 on the car she was buying...failed that too. Either some people just can't get it, or I'm a shit instructor. Come to think about it, I need to give it a try with my 17 y.o. Keep ya posted! |
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Back in the day I taught half a dozen friends to drive a manual. Went with a friend and her sister to pick up their brand new (advertised special) Dotson that their parents had gotten for them to drive to university in. Neither knew how to drive a stick so I drove it to a big empty parking lot for a business that was closed on the weekend and taught both of them how to drive it in about an hour. My friend nailed it quickly, her sister not so much. Took her a long time to become smooth. With the rental car in Italy it was smooth right from the start but the last time I rode a manual motorcycle shift I'll admit there were a couple of bucks but at least I didn't stall. I expect if I had too it wouldn't take too long to get back to smooth but since I have a pin in my left ankle motorcycle shifting isn't high on my list of things I want to do for any significant length of time. Though paddle shifting on the CTX's DCT did remind me how much fun it could be but then I think of some of the roads I ride and how much shifting would be involved and decide that I won't buy another.
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old as dirt wrote: TroutBum wrote: Max, you have the skills and would not benefit much from the basic course. Sign-up for the advanced class. It's worth the $. The basic is great for those who have never ridden or have little experience, but if you have ridden for a year or more, and you have, it's a waste of time in my opinion. I have personally taught many of riders who have rode for years. After the class 95% came up to me and said they were amazed at how much they DID NOT know until they completed the class. the advance class is a building block on top of the beginner class and folks can benefit even more if they take the beginner class first. |
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jimc wrote: I love it that most Americans get frightened by 'the friction zone' and can't drive a manual ("stick-shift") car - it makes theft of our Westfalia van far less likely - though I've added a kill-switch anyway. Having to learn to operate a manual transmission in the first place while learning the balance/dynamics of a motorcycle adds another obstacle to getting new riders onto bikes. Granted, it's not all that difficult, but if you're starting from scratch it's not nothing. |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Buddy Kick 125
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Rusty J wrote: Having to learn to operate a manual transmission in the first place while learning the balance/dynamics of a motorcycle adds another obstacle to getting new riders onto bikes. Granted, it's not all that difficult, but if you're starting from scratch it's not nothing. |
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Harbinger wrote: TBH a manual motorcycle is very easy to learn. It's usually a simple one down for first then up, up , up until you run out of gears. You can literally learn how to do it in less than half an hour comfortably and if you can walk and chew gum you can figure it out. The downside? Yes it is one more thing to concern yourself with and if you are happy riding scooters only then you need not concern yourself with it. However I do think it is a handy skill to have and does open up more opportunities should you want to add a motorcycle to the mix down the road. In the last 3 years I've taught myself how to ride all over again after. along break starting with a 300CC Vespa. Then added a large 650CC "scooter", then a 7500CC sidecar rig and now have a 1649CC 160 HP motorcycle. You know what? It's been a lot of fun and challenging yourself can be fun. The biggest help along the journey has been professional training which here at least is not expensive and you learn so, so much. BR I agree being able to shift would be an asset but saying because I am unable to, I have no business riding, is just disingenious. |
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Yup - totally agree with above -- all drivers should be able to shift both on motorcycles and bikes. Being able to do so got me so much further along on the safety aspects of the training. That said, I have flown planes and helicopters - early learning to ride with shifting in automobiles helped with that. And, again, shocking what I saw in my MSF course from "experienced cyclists." Also, I might add, sad, America seems to discourage stick. I love going to Europe/Japan and driving there.
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