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After speaking with a few here on the subject of carb setup and breaking in a new motor,I thought it a good idea to be specific with the motor and setup.
- 20/20 Spaco 20d carb, and pulled the two , I think you'd refer to them as jets. The big one up top says 160 , the main body has a E3 and on the deep end of the main body the main jet says 118. The second jet which I think is the pilot jet says 50-120.
I searched a bit to find a break down of these carb for proper lingual but wasn't very successful , so my apologies.

- I also included a pic of the filter on the carb

- I have the BGM exhaust

-DR 180 top end and I think the only upgrade on motor is the Rich Nice crank which I'm pretty sure, anything but the top end is the pertinent information looked at.

-Ducati ignition and Pinasco Regulator.

-Looking back on old messages from the builder, the motor is timed at 20-21 btdc, retarded it a bit more than stock to keep motor running cooler.


I'm not sure why the carb was setup up the way it is other than the 118 is recommended for breakin and that the motor was benchtested to his soecifications which I trust, but I would like to get an understanding without having to be an annoyance to the builder as I know he is extremely busy.

So to start with could you's please explain what these jets represent , including the air corrector etc , kind of in laymans terms would help alot. I do know from experience the piolt jet is for low speed and main jet is for higher throttle opening ie hiway speeds.
P.S. I don't think I have enough time in my lifetime to both read and understand CM's highly technical Sidecar thread . Laughing emoticon
Thanks for the input
Lynn
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blue fiber on filter
blue fiber on filter
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The larger of the 2 jets consisting of 3 pieces is usually called the main stack. The 3 pieces from top to bottom are (1) the air correction (or just air) tube, (2) the emulsifier or mixing or atomizer tube, and (3) the main jet.

The smaller of the 2 jets consisting of one piece is the idle or pilot jet.

The idle jet controls fuel flow at idle and low rpm. The lower number corresponds to fuel and the higher number corresponds to air. Divide the higher number by the lower number to get a relative measure of richness (lower is richer).

The main stack controls fuel flow at mid to wide open throttle. The air tube meters air, the main jet meters fuel and the mixing tube combines them. The air tube and the main jet are pretty straightforward--a bigger number on the air tube means more air (leaner) and a bigger number on the main jet means more fuel (richer). To understand the mixing tube, you have to understand that the main stack sits in a well of fuel and the level of fuel in the well goes down as the throttle is opened up. The various mixing tubes have different hole patterns at different heights that feed air into the fuel as they are uncovered by the dropping fuel level in the well.

Your mixing tube is probably a BE-3, not an E-3. If that is correct, your jetting is pretty typical for your application.

I am attaching some pictures that help explain the mixing tube.
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Thanks kowalski , really well presented, I'll have to read it a few times to really take it in and understand front to back but it's some very thorough information.
The Mixing tube does that indeed only say E3 but hard to tell there may be a B in front.
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I'm pretty sure the pilot let is determined by the air/fuel mixture screw but what about the main stack , what determines the size of the 3 pieces in the main stack (1) the air correction , (2) the atomizer tube, and (3) the main jet?
Well the main jet I'm sure is just a matter of doing a plug chop and seeing what the spark plug looks like , or does (1) and (2) play a part as well ?

Also I know my air cleaner is not the best and also has to be addressed and probably has an effect on the mix?
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That is a BE-3 mixing tube. You can tell because it has 4 holes in the midrange section (more air/leaner mix) where the E-3 only has 2 (less air/richer mix).

The mixture screw is used to fine tune the idle jet. One way to tell if you have the right idle jet is if the mixture screw is about 2 1/2 turns out when properly adjusted.

As far as selecting the components for the main stack, I am still figuring that out myself. They are all interrelated and there is some overlap with the idle jet to consider too. The biggest enigma is how the air tube and the mixing tube interrelate. It seems to me that the air tube isn't that critical because the air still has to pass through the mixing tube. Nonetheless, people put a lot of emphasis on air tube size, so I'm probably missing something. In any event, as I said before, your 160/BE-3/118 is pretty typical for a 177 cylinder kit. Beyond that, I will have to defer to Jack and the other jetting gurus here.

You are right that yours is not the best air filter. The easiest thing to do is replace it with a Piaggio air filter that comes with holes in the "heart section" already drilled. That is supposed to flow more air and may require a larger main jet to compensate.
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Lynn, its good to get smart about how SI carbs work and how to fine tune the jetting.

But this is a Gick-built engine, right?

Jon knows his stuff. He bench tested it and supplied you with jets suited to the build.

If there's a specific running issue you're having, I'd give him a shout. I'm sure he'd be happy to help you sort it out.
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Kowalski wrote:
That is a BE-3 mixing tube. You can tell because it has 4 holes in the midrange section (more air/leaner mix) where the E-3 only has 2 (less air/richer mix).

The mixture screw is used to fine tune the idle jet. One way to tell if you have the right idle jet is if the mixture screw is about 2 1/2 turns out when properly adjusted.

As far as selecting the components for the main stack, I am still figuring that out myself. They are all interrelated and there is some overlap with the idle jet to consider too. The biggest enigma is how the air tube and the mixing tube interrelate. It seems to me that the air tube isn't that critical because the air still has to pass through the mixing tube. Nonetheless, people put a lot of emphasis on air tube size, so I'm probably missing something. In any event, as I said before, your 160/BE-3/118 is pretty typical for a 177 cylinder kit. Beyond that, I will have to defer to Jack and the other jetting gurus here.

You are right that yours is not the best air filter. The easiest thing to do is replace it with a Piaggio air filter that comes with holes in the "heart section" already drilled. That is supposed to flow more air and may require a larger main jet to compensate.
Thankyou for the insight, I did kind of figure the pilot jet is directly related to the mixture screw, not enough room to adjust with the mixture screw and a larger pilot jet is needed, thats kind of the only technology that works on all makes of carbed bikes, I have done my own jetting on Harley's kawasaki's and british bikes. Its this main stack that has me intrigued , I will have to do more research , gotta be something out there.
Yes I agree on the air cleaner, I will be leaving it off the carb.
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SoCalGuy wrote:
Lynn, its good to get smart about how SI carbs work and how to fine tune the jetting.

But this is a Gick-built engine, right?

Jon knows his stuff. He bench tested it and supplied you with jets suited to the build.

If there's a specific running issue you're having, I'd give him a shout. I'm sure he'd be happy to help you sort it out.
Yes it was built by Gick, but that was back in 2013 so time to pull the rip cord , he has other things to do. Its just like the welding and the painting, had to learn it to understand before I could do it myself, thats just me.
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During my research today I came across this video on youtube.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06m3450pTps&list=PL7SWwzc0TBDYXhXvfkw6UQSaoR5m9l5hN&index=55&t=0s
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Question: is there going to be much noticeable difference between a 55/120 and a 50/120 idle jet? At what number is there a big noticeable differnce?
Thanks
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I got around to adjusting my shifter cables today, used Voodoos bundgie cable and vise grip method. Shifts much better.
I also pulled the crappy blue mesh air filter out of the carb, amazing improvement, actually hit 50 mph and seemed to want to keep going but I'm respecting the breakin period. Much easier to keep it off wot now.
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While you are at it, drill out the section in the air filter directly above the jets. Use a 5mm and 8mm drill. That also makes a big improvement.
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danie wrote:
While you are at it, drill out the section in the air filter directly above the jets. Use a 5mm and 8mm drill. That also makes a big improvement.
I had a blue fiber air filter in there , I removed the air filter completely. I noticed an improvement immediately.
⬆️    About 9 months elapsed    ⬇️
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Lynnb wrote:
I had a blue fiber air filter in there , I removed the air filter completely. I noticed an improvement immediately.
Hey Lynn,

Are you still running without an air filter?

I ask because we're working on getting rid of the low down and sometimes mid-stutter on our 2 port 177 kits. We both have the blue filters and hearts drilled. Hmmm...
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qascooter wrote:
Hey Lynn,

Are you still running without an air filter?

I ask because we're working on getting rid of the low down and sometimes mid-stutter on our 2 port 177 kits. We both have the blue filters and hearts drilled. Hmmm...
I haven't ran with a filter since it was advised against as long as I have the bellow on. I am actually just reading up on drilling the carb down where the mainjet feeds from. Scott to tell you the truth I probably wouldn't know a low speed stutter if I had one. I do know though that changing to a 140/Be3/18 really woke up the lower gears.
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Ok I done got it done 500 mile break in completed.

At the moment I have the 140/BE5/118 and 50-120 and no air filter.
What I'm finding is if I cruise at 40mph it feels like shit , if I go upto about 42-43mph it feels a lot better and this is with steady speed. Going from 40-50 -60 feels amazing , no vibration at my feet at all and although twisting throttle at 42 sends you back in your seat it is taking time to wind out upto about 60mph which I expected with the 118 mj.
I haven't done any plug chops yet , or even pulled the plug since the first time I did a plug chop at 50 miles, it ran so no need to pull it.

Today when I got got I did hear a bit of a chinging noise coming from motor but it seemed to go away.
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qascooter wrote:
Hey Lynn,

Are you still running without an air filter?

I ask because we're working on getting rid of the low down and sometimes mid-stutter on our 2 port 177 kits. We both have the blue filters and hearts drilled. Hmmm...
I tried it. Tried every filter/carb permutation. Drilled, not drilled, no filter, no cover, flat slide, smaller carb...
Ended up with the original drilled filter.
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qascooter wrote:
Hey Lynn,

Are you still running without an air filter?

I ask because we're working on getting rid of the low down and sometimes mid-stutter on our 2 port 177 kits. We both have the blue filters and hearts drilled. Hmmm...
What's your squish on those two?

I ask because my low end stutter disappeared when i skimmed the head and got my squish tight. 1.25-35mm had low end stutter no matter what i did. 0.8mm squish and pretty much all jetting and atomizers it's clean throughout. Not sure what that means but suspecting it's something related.
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Ok got around to pulling the plug and figured I'd pull the shroud as well. Is it normal for the head to be leaking above exhaust port after 500 miles?
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No leakage here
No leakage here
Or here
Or here
Kinda figured plug would look like this after running rich and just pulling out in the shop
Kinda figured plug would look like this after running rich and just pulling out in the shop
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Did you give the head a few passes over some sand paper on glass? Might help fix that air leak at the head. Could also just be from head nuts needing tightening. If new studs and nuts they stretch a bit after a few miles and always good to recheck and torque them down again after the first few weeks.
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swiss1939 wrote:
Did you give the head a few passes over some sand paper on glass? Might help fix that air leak at the head. Could also just be from head nuts needing tightening. If new studs and nuts they stretch a bit after a few miles and always good to recheck and torque them down again after the first few weeks.
Oh ok , I didn't run the head over glass , I received the motor assembled as a complete build accept for clutch and carb needed to be attached. So that would be considered an air leak, learned something new.
Do you know the torque sequence by chance and the torque?
Can I pull the head , like is it metal to metal or is there a gasket ?
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Are you sure it's leaking? Don't know how Gick assembled the head here, but I use grease, and a little always melts off around the perimeter during run in. I'd just check the torque on the head nuts and keep an eye on it.
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SoCalGuy wrote:
Are you sure it's leaking? Don't know how Gick assembled the head here, but I use grease, and a little always melts off around the perimeter during run in. I'd just check the torque on the head nuts and keep an eye on it.
What should I torque too and is it a criss cross pattern?
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10-12 ft-lb should do it. Yes, cross tighten.
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SoCalGuy wrote:
10-12 ft-lb should do it. Yes, cross tighten.
Perfect thankyou.
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check out this video

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I checked the torque on the head, I used my inch pound torque wrench set to 131 inches , all clicked ok so doesn't look like it needed a retorque
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hibbert wrote:
check out this video

Thanks hibert I'll take a look.

Looking back on my original parts invoice I don't see a separate head , I wonder if the Dr180 comes with a head as a kit?
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Yeah i doubt it's any major issue beyond possibly nuts that need a little tightening as I'm sure gick already skimmed the head surface flat. I thought you built the engine and was just double checking that you did that.
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swiss1939 wrote:
Yeah i doubt it's any major issue beyond possibly nuts that need a little tightening as I'm sure gick already skimmed the head surface flat. I thought you built the engine and was just double checking that you did that.
No Swiss I had GickSpeed build this engine complete back in 2012 and just started it last year. Can you torque more than recommended torque spec?
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SoCalGuy wrote:
Are you sure it's leaking? Don't know how Gick assembled the head here, but I use grease, and a little always melts off around the perimeter during run in. I'd just check the torque on the head nuts and keep an eye on it.
SoCal do you simply use an ordinary grease in the head surface , just a lite smear ? I think I'm going to pull the head after work and run the surface across some 180 on a glass sheet to get some cross hatch on it and reassemble and torque, I don't feel comfortable seeing the head leak like that and the retorque didn't change anything, sorry stubborn that way, don't like the idea of a new leaky engine.
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swiss1939 wrote:
What's your squish on those two?

I ask because my low end stutter disappeared when i skimmed the head and got my squish tight. 1.25-35mm had low end stutter no matter what i did. 0.8mm squish and pretty much all jetting and atomizers it's clean throughout. Not sure what that means but suspecting it's something related.
Thanks for the info Swiss - I have no idea the squish. It's the Pinasco 2-port 177 kit. I've been assuming they dialed that in before selling the kit. Maybe I should rethink that assumption and Get the solder out and pull the head....
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Ray8 wrote:
I tried it. Tried every filter/carb permutation. Drilled, not drilled, no filter, no cover, flat slide, smaller carb...
Ended up with the original drilled filter.
Thanks Ray8 - That's what I'll stick with!
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I assume *nothing* about measurements when building motors, squish and timing least of all. Too many variations of parts, designs, and workmanship for that.

I even re-check everything on my own previously Known Good work when I re-assemble.

Also, the DR normally is sold as a complete kit, cylinder, head, piston, rings. The only thing that's not included is quality.
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Is there a way to find squish without removing the head a bunch of times and taping solder across the piston?
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qascooter wrote:
Is there a way to find squish without removing the head a bunch of times and taping solder across the piston?
I've had luck with:
- remove spark plug
- trim solder with razor blade so I get a blunt end without any pre "squish"
- Slide it in until I feel it hit the wall of the cylinder
- Turn flywheel until it squishes - while keeping pressure on the solder against that wall.

*The way I can tell if I got a true measure: if you look extra close at the solder after squish - it will have a bulbous end where the very tip was not squished as much because it was in the cap between the piston and cylinder.

This means it was fully up against the edge.
Be careful to measure the solder just inside that bulbous tip - or you will be measuring the wrong area.
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charlieman22 wrote:
I've had luck with:
- remove spark plug
- trim solder with razor blade so I get a blunt end without any pre "squish"
- Slide it in until I feel it hit the wall of the cylinder
- Turn flywheel until it squishes - while keeping pressure on the solder against that wall.

*The way I can tell if I got a true measure: if you look extra close at the solder after squish - it will have a bulbous end where the very tip was not squished as much because it was in the cap between the piston and cylinder.

This means it was fully up against the edge.
Be careful to measure the solder just inside that bulbous tip - or you will be measuring the wrong area.
Charlie this is new to me and required to start tuning my carb. Good explanation on procedure , the solder , would it be the thin solder like for soldering electronics or the thicker solder like for soldering plumbing copper pipes?
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@swiss1939 avatar
P208, Stella VMC Stelvio 187, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T, 02 Sportster XLH1208
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Whatever solder you can find that's thicker than the average squish. Which is probably something like 1.3-1.5mm. I've just used whatever i can find at home Depot that's not the thinnest solder for micro electronics.
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swiss1939 wrote:
Whatever solder you can find that's thicker than the average squish is 1.3-1.5mm
Thanks Swiss I don't know what to expect when I shove a length of solder in the spark plug hole so didn't want to shove a size in there that is too large in diameter and doesn't give accurate squish reading.
Might I ask what squish size information actually helps determine in tuning a carb? Like is there some special formula that it drops into or something?
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