kit same as comparable stock
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Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2249

Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:25 am quote
Hey guys, this may sound like a silly question but don't worry I'm sure there will be more to come. As most know I'm on a learning frenzy and have 2 weeks holidays off work to indulge.

When you change a vintage stock motor from its stock setup of a typical 150 , si 20/15 , stock exhaust and points and put a 180 top end kit ( with 3rd port cut in casings) , si 20/20 carb, 12volt ignition and free flowing exhaust is that motor now simply compared to say a 180 Rally motor setup, or any other 180 2 stroke motor?

Are the for instance Rally 180's setup the same as the above mentioned modificatons?

Do Rally 180's have a 3 port setup?

Thanks for any info
Moderator
P200 PX150
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4373
Location: Hustletown, TX
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:08 am quote
Yes Rally 180's were 3 port.
Ignition was points. 2020 Carb


IIRC the carb had a be2 and a maybe a 110 main?
(Sigh... I miss my 180.)
Moderator
P200 PX150
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4373
Location: Hustletown, TX
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:10 am quote
correction stock main was a 109

More -
https://www.scooterhelp.com/scooters/VSD1T.rally180.html
Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2249

Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:53 am quote
Thanks Birdsnest basicly thats what I wanted to see was how its overall setup was, sounds like everyone with a 125 and 150 are aiming for Rally specs.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:45 pm quote
Not really sure if it has any bearing on the question, but the Rally 180 has the 200-style port/stud layout - it's not a further development of the 150.
Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2249

Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:57 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
Not really sure if it has any bearing on the question, but the Rally 180 has the 200-style port/stud layout - it's not a further development of the 150.
Well I suppose its something to take into account , I was more curious why the setup is so much different than most of used with the top end kits are setting them up as. Unless of course the Rally's setup is a government emmisions minimum requirement thing.

rally setup.jpg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:46 pm quote
A more useful comparison/jetting aid might be here - cick on the flags at top right, then pick 177 at top left, gives you a bunch of setups you can compare to yours.

http://lfs.alexander-hepp.de/
Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2249

Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:57 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
A more useful comparison/jetting aid might be here - cick on the flags at top right, then pick 177 at top left, gives you a bunch of setups you can compare to yours.

http://lfs.alexander-hepp.de/
Thanks Ginch thatís a fantastic data base. There is one thing though that confuses me, is it the idea to set it up right first and then run it in keeping off wot and simply varying the speeds or run it rich until it is run in and then do the proper setup,and at the same time how do you know you have a proper setup unless you do plug chops at main jet top speeds ( well maybe not top speeds as Iíve always done them at the most average hiway speeds I would be running at and this on a big cruiser of course) or is this just a super controversial subject?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:20 pm quote
A difficult question! I guess you need to pick something that's safe. Holding it at wot is a no no. Probably just wait until it's run in before doing proper plug chop runs. No reason you can't use wot as often as you like (the cylinder pressure helps to bed the rings in better), just don't let it rev out or hold it a single speed for any length of time.

One reason I prefer an aluminum cylinder!

Have you re-torqued the head yet?
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1702
Location: california
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:03 pm quote
Lynn - as you can see - there are a range of ideas offered.
It may not be as divergent as it sounds tho.
Jack's comment about doing 50 - may have been general.
Were you doing 50 in rah gear lugging it at the same RPM?
Or were you doing 50 when you revved out 3rd gear?
One of those is fine.
The other is not ideal.

I've broken in (and broken) about 6 or 7 now with good results.
Compression remains high.
No blow by evidence on the pistons when torn down.
Like Ginch - I am not concerned with opening the throttle all the way - but don't sit on the revs.
Hard to get good heat cycles with out a little revving through the gears.
I progressively get more aggressive as I move through the heat cycles.
5th one sees more revs than the first and less than the 10th.

I tend not to rev to absolute peak - and I don't rev beyond peak to "over rev" ever during break in - because that only happens when you sit on the gear and wait for it to climb very slowly.
I wait to get about 10 heat cycles before I run it WOT long enough to do a proper plug chop - because as you note - you have to sit on the revs for that.

The act of doing the plug chops with WOT hard runs is like stage two of my break ins - but the rings are already seated and the high RPM runs seam to just loosen up the motor that last little bit - or so I perceive.
You can feel it when turning the flywheel by hand.

In my experience - it doesn't matter how long you have been "breaking in " for, an iron cylinder tends to seize at a certain temp. The trick is to not go over that temp. The challenge is you don't know that temp til it happens. But the risk of it happening is no larger after 10 heat cycles than 50 heat cycles.

My $.02
Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2249

Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:47 am quote
Ginch wrote:
A difficult question! I guess you need to pick something that's safe. Holding it at wot is a no no. Probably just wait until it's run in before doing proper plug chop runs. No reason you can't use wot as often as you like (the cylinder pressure helps to bed the rings in better), just don't let it rev out or hold it a single speed for any length of time.

One reason I prefer an aluminum cylinder!
Have you re-torqued the head yet?
No I haven't retorqued the heads , should I ? As of today I have 66 miles on the motor. Whats the torque spec if I should?
Well knowing now that I have a lot of throttle left after 50 mph makes me feel better, some of the roads I ride on are really heavy and well you guys know what its like to hit a bump with these bikes doing 50mph let alone 60.

Last edited by Lynnb on Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:57 am; edited 1 time in total
Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2249

Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:56 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Lynn - as you can see - there are a range of ideas offered.
It may not be as divergent as it sounds tho.
Jack's comment about doing 50 - may have been general.
Were you doing 50 in rah gear lugging it at the same RPM?
Or were you doing 50 when you revved out 3rd gear?
One of those is fine.
The other is not ideal.

I've broken in (and broken) about 6 or 7 now with good results.
Compression remains high.
No blow by evidence on the pistons when torn down.
Like Ginch - I am not concerned with opening the throttle all the way - but don't sit on the revs.
Hard to get good heat cycles with out a little revving through the gears.
I progressively get more aggressive as I move through the heat cycles.
5th one sees more revs than the first and less than the 10th.

I tend not to rev to absolute peak - and I don't rev beyond peak to "over rev" ever during break in - because that only happens when you sit on the gear and wait for it to climb very slowly.
I wait to get about 10 heat cycles before I run it WOT long enough to do a proper plug chop - because as you note - you have to sit on the revs for that.

The act of doing the plug chops with WOT hard runs is like stage two of my break ins - but the rings are already seated and the high RPM runs seam to just loosen up the motor that last little bit - or so I perceive.
You can feel it when turning the flywheel by hand.

In my experience - it doesn't matter how long you have been "breaking in " for, an iron cylinder tends to seize at a certain temp. The trick is to not go over that temp. The challenge is you don't know that temp til it happens. But the risk of it happening is no larger after 10 heat cycles than 50 heat cycles.

My $.02
CM I basicly go through to 4th gear before trying to get and speeds above 35-40mph , I revved out of 4th to 60mph and just for 15 seconds, was actually passing a truck pulling a trailer that was filled with cement blocks.

I will see if I can just get through the gears giving a bit of revvs so to get the speed up and then try to keep the speed varied in 4th staying off wot, hate when I get sent to the corner.

I must be upto 6- 7 heat cycles by now ,maybe more and I would imagine each time its run would be considered a heat cycle.

Thanks for the feedback on your break in experiences and methods.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:45 pm quote
Yes re-torque to whatever spec it was the first time.
Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2249

Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:49 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
Yes re-torque to whatever spec it was the first time.
Do you remember what it was ?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:53 pm quote
Lynnb wrote:
Ginch wrote:
Yes re-torque to whatever spec it was the first time.
Do you remember what it was ?
Cheeky bugger! Think it's 13 ft/lbs, but that's without actually checking...
Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2249

Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:25 am quote
Ginch wrote:
Lynnb wrote:
Ginch wrote:
Yes re-torque to whatever spec it was the first time.
Do you remember what it was ?
Cheeky bugger! Think it's 13 ft/lbs, but that's without actually checking...
Thanks Ginch , thats my sometimes sense of humor , I didn't expect you to know the value off the top of your head.
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