1-Do Piaggio mp3 500 cylinders fit mp3 400 engine blocks?
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MP3-400
Joined: 11 Sep 2020
Posts: 12
Location: USA
Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:44 pm quote
From survey, about a mp3 year 2014 500cc piston/cylinder/sleeve Ďassemblyí may be perfect solution: instead of a messy (human variance) unreliable bore-kit. Thatís the way BMWís Italian (Aprilia) 97 F650 sold pistons and cylinders: only in a combined assembly (now I understand why. - Initially, being broke, I assumed it was for grater profit margins alone.)

If I had a link to nested bomís from Piaggio (Question #2), I could verify any other part variances between the MP3 400 and 500 Models (??) for my grand scheme to gain a reliable 6 hp to (Safely) move my 300 lbs away from in front of cars.

Am I the first Thrifty (or Cheap) owner to wonder about this? Any way, Safety First(!) because I am sure I cannot squat 600 lbs :-O

THANKS GREATLY!!
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Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 4206
Location: Netherlands Olst
Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:33 am quote
yes and no its not plug and play needs some adjustments for the 492cc

the 469cc will fit as plug and play

i can supply ready made kits then it becomes a 487cc
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 500
Joined: 21 Nov 2017
Posts: 282
Location: Austin, TX
Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:48 am quote
Stroke is different by 2 mm as well. So the horsepower may be even less than the stock even if the bore is larger, since the compression ration will drop. Also the heads are different and may not fit. If you need a cylinder and piston, best to stay stock, IMO.
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GTS
Joined: 19 Aug 2020
Posts: 9
Location: Berlin Germany
Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:53 am quote
Sounds more like to use the old Master 460 set up with 69 mm stroke.

I recently mounted a 94mm cylinder onto the old Master engine (69mm stroke/92mm bore). Did not fit plug and play. Needed to shorten the sleeve by 10mm approximately. Measured compression ratio by measuring combustion chamber ... was a 8,2:1 only (would have been ok for a supercharged application ) Did 500k run-in and opened the motor again after measuring only 29hp on the wheel on the dyno. Cylinder had unusual wear for 500k.

To be honest, if someone is keen on spending time with tuning, it might be a nice project. The easier way maybe is an engine swap to a 500cc engine from a salvage vehicle. Unfortunately those are rare here in Germany, where I am located, otherwise I would have already an 500 hpe ...
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Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 4206
Location: Netherlands Olst
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:00 am quote
doesnt matter a 492 on a 69 stroke produces also 41 on the crank it runs smooter tho with a 69 stroke
Did about 40 conversions now

The 469 is more expensive then a 492

unexpected wear of the cilder got noting to do with the stroke
And 29 on th rear wheel is about 41 on the crank
astock 400 wil do 21.8 on the rearwheel

A new HPE advanced engine i bought recently in italy new
it will cost about 2850 euro

Also bought 2 400 new

500hpe.jpeg

Member
GTS
Joined: 19 Aug 2020
Posts: 9
Location: Berlin Germany
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:41 am quote
Nice engine, Maksor! Price is pretty fair if it comes with throttle body and full vario. Was it the official price or could you make a special deal?

Agree, stroke and wear are not related. Did not investigated for the root cause yet.

Since I am targeting max output, the 69mm stroke are fine to rev higher.

I had 4 X9-500 on my dyno, wheel power variated from 28 to 32. My dyno is not officially calibrated, but till now showed reasonable numbers. Since my conversion with 94mm had a ported cylinder head, Malossi camshaft and modified airbox I was not satisfied with 29 hp. Will check on it what is holding it back.

Is the HPE engine for a project? Does the HPE has a aluminum or steel cylinder?
Addicted
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 620
Location: tampa
Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:57 pm quote
Juxus wrote:
Sounds more like to use the old Master 460 set up with 69 mm stroke.

I recently mounted a 94mm cylinder onto the old Master engine (69mm stroke/92mm bore). Did not fit plug and play. Needed to shorten the sleeve by 10mm approximately. Measured compression ratio by measuring combustion chamber ... was a 8,2:1 only (would have been ok for a supercharged application ) Did 500k run-in and opened the motor again after measuring only 29hp on the wheel on the dyno. Cylinder had unusual wear for 500k.

To be honest, if someone is keen on spending time with tuning, it might be a nice project. The easier way maybe is an engine swap to a 500cc engine from a salvage vehicle. Unfortunately those are rare here in Germany, where I am located, otherwise I would have already an 500 hpe ...
your post has terrible math. no way you shave 10mm from anything. and no way compression drop to 8.2/1. the 94mm cylinder is 11/1 comp on the 71 stroke crank. the piston would be lower by 1mm not 2mm on a 69mm crank. shaving cylinder by 1mm would be retarding cam timing. (not a good idea for engine that operates at mostly 5000-6500rpm.) not shaving drops compression to about 10/1.

scooter center was selling these 94mm cylinder kits and they said they work fine on 400 and 469 engines. no shaving needed.
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 500
Joined: 21 Nov 2017
Posts: 282
Location: Austin, TX
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:51 am quote
In the 500 engine, 11:1 compression with a displacement of 492 cc, means the combustion chamber is 49.2 cc. The 2 mm shorter stroke means there's 13.8 cc less displacement and 6.9 cc more space in the head. So (492 - 13.8 + 49.2 + 6.9)/(49.2 + 6.9) = 9.5. So the compression has gone down to 9.5 to 1. This will rob some horsepower.
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Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 4206
Location: Netherlands Olst
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:53 am quote
it will needs some adjustment it will hit the crankshaft done it 40 times now

Also some pistons will hit the crank

3100 if you going to pick it up

shipping it to berlin will be about 400.- i think
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 500
Joined: 21 Nov 2017
Posts: 282
Location: Austin, TX
Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:01 am quote
Anyway, I wanted to go the other direction when I rebuilt my MP3 after the piston cracked, from the 492 master dual-spark engine to the 460 cylinder. But the extra 2 mm of stroke would make me use an extra 1 mm of base gasket. I ended up going with the stock cylinder and added an extra 0.4 mm of base gasket to lower the compression from 11:1 to 10.4:1. This will help with detonation, the primary cause of piston land failure, even though the anecdotal evidence is that the pistons are more reliable now.
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Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 4206
Location: Netherlands Olst
Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:05 am quote
thats the funny thing it doesn't all have 41 hp on the crank 29 on the rear wheel

Did lots of dyno runs my first conversion was a 460 with 48hp on the crank with a rapid bike and polished head and stuff did have 39ish on th rearwheel
But for the cvt you need a special dyno machine one that will know the differents between a automatic and geared engine

if the software on the dyno is for a gearbox it will say between 32 and 88 hp

there are some Graph's i've posted in 2009 or so

my X9 500 was a 469 now a 486cc still got 41 hp but runs smoother then a twinspark
Member
GTS
Joined: 19 Aug 2020
Posts: 9
Location: Berlin Germany
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:40 pm quote
The cylinder I used was 1A001833. It was mounted on a 2003 X9 500 engine. The bottom part of the cylinder sleeve blocked the crankshaft from turning. I had to shorten it by roughly 10mm to the same length as the original 92mm cylinder. The piston also touched the crankshaft, had to shorten it by 1-2 mm.

Compression ratio was measured by mounting a glass and filling the volume up with liquid. Cylinder head was 32cc and cylinder with piston on top was 24cc. Total 56cc. I calculated my piston displacement (94mm bore and 69mm stroke) to 478cc. Result was a 8,5 compression ratio (sorry for the 8,2 - wrong memory). Additional info: gasket was a 0,4mm in the bottom and forget the value for the cylinder head gasket (was the OEM one), but I put it in the 32cc already.

Question: Why 469cc? If I calculate 92mm/69mm my result is 458,7cc. 460cc is in my papers of the vehicle. Are you guys having different bore?
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 500
Joined: 21 Nov 2017
Posts: 282
Location: Austin, TX
Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:42 am quote
It's 460. I don't know where folks got the 469 number. Maybe conflating the 460 displacement with the 69 stroke?

I get 9.5:1 with those numbers- (478+56)/56 ~= 9.5

Easy way to remember the math: 1:1 compression is no compression at all. 2:1 compression is a volume of 2 compressed into a volume of 1, in other words the displacement is 1 and the head volume is 1.
Member
GTS
Joined: 19 Aug 2020
Posts: 9
Location: Berlin Germany
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:07 am quote
You're right Squeazel! Thanks for pointing it out! Forgot to add the combustion chamber to the total. So everything fine again 😀
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