New Barone 177 - boom times in the market!
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:43 am quote
Hot on the heels of the VMC Crono 177 into what is already a pretty crowded market, comes yet another brand new 177 cylinder!

Possibly to get the jump on the (as yet unseen) BFA 177, Roberto Barone put these pictures up on his facebook page. (I've edited this for clarity Sept 20) It's an unfinished cylinder as yet, perhaps he likes showing off.

He seems to be a pretty small operator, relatively unknown outside of Smallframe racing circles. He also produces his own Smallframe 154cc direct reed cylinder (examples in following posts), along with a number of exhaust designs. Seems to do quite well in racing.

As usual - no info! I don't know what it is about the Italians, but when pictures like this are posted, not one person asks "what's the port timing?" "how much power do you expect it to produce?" "where do expect peak torque in this design?". They're just saying "bravo!" "top" and "woweee". They will ask for a price though, with just a one word reply "prezzo".

Good chance this kit is aimed directly at racing - especially looking at the porting. Big exhaust with a pretty straight top and bottom probably means the power will kick in pretty hard when it does I imagine. And very unusual boost porting... going to take a lot of work to match your cases up to that! In fact they are looking more like C ports (I'd guess you'd call them) by the time they exit.

Anyway... dragged this out long enough, here's the pics.

Barone 177 4.jpg

Barone 177 5.jpg

Barone 177 2.jpg

Barone 177 6.jpg

Barone 177 3.jpg

Barone 177 1.jpg



Last edited by Ginch on Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2376
Location: London UK
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:05 am quote
Lot of work getting that to fit. What power, stroke, timing you say it was? Wonder if it will be worth it. Looks more like a half finished blank that takes a week's work and advanced skills to fit.
Has great potential to go very well if you could be bothered to put that much time and effort into an iron cylinder.
Stud holes would be nice too.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:24 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Lot of work getting that to fit. What power, stroke, timing you say it was? Wonder if it will be worth it. Looks more like a half finished blank that takes a week's work and advanced skills to fit.
Has great potential to go very well if you could be bothered to put that much time and effort into an iron cylinder.
Stud holes would be nice too.
Jack, you can read the entire story here (assuming you have 12.5 seconds to spare) - https://www.facebook.com/roberto.barone.7/posts/10218572307247389
Let me know if I left out any of the important details.

But perhaps this is more to your liking? MHR 177 competitor? VMC Crono
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1702
Location: california
Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:49 pm quote
Missed this when it posted.
Cool find.

Ginch - I see what you mean about the ports - bit tough to tell but they don't look staggered in height - suggesting bit narrower power band as I understand it.
Some of the design seams a bit unrefined in comparison to the VMC?

From what I read - there is some significant loss (20%+) by having a split ex. port - but you can gain that back by having bigger ex port over all.

Jack - what's your $.02 on the double separations?
Middle of ex. port seams to dip down a bit. - like the MHR
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2376
Location: London UK
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:11 pm quote
The ex port on this kit is good for high rpm power. Better than a bridge. The porting on this kit is confused, which is why I said it needs a week's work to re shape everything.

Putting stud holes in this cylinder will be a challenge.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:55 pm quote
Sorry to mislead you guys... this is not a cylinder you can buy at SIP right now. It's not a diy cylinder where they leave it up to you to drill your own stud holes. This is a cylinder in development, a draft copy. He usually works in alloy, I imagine he had an early test done in iron for cost reasons.
Jack221 wrote:
The ex port on this kit is good for high rpm power. Better than a bridge. The porting on this kit is confused, which is why I said it needs a week's work to re shape everything.

Putting stud holes in this cylinder will be a challenge.
Kind of feel the guy is up for that challenge somehow...

Clipboard01.jpg
Another batch

Clipboard02.jpg

Clipboard03.jpg
154 cylinder

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2249

Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:23 am quote
Looks interesting enough , shouldn't the machining be smooth though?
Do I dare say Bravo

rough.jpg
rough in the red circled ?

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2376
Location: London UK
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:41 am quote
Are his kits popular on lammys?
Enthusiast
Vespa Sprint 150
Joined: 17 Jan 2019
Posts: 82
Location: Portland OR
Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:21 am quote
Lynnb wrote:
Looks interesting enough , shouldn't the machining be smooth though?
That just looks like the surface from the casting, the bore is then machined.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:54 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Are his kits popular on lammys?
Don't believe he lowers himself that far
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1702
Location: california
Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:50 pm quote
Didn't fully register this is still early.
Will be interesting.
Perhaps he uses iron for ease of adjustments while in this stage of development.
No middle bar in ex. port = good then.
That's the same config as the April isn't it?
Seems like there is some movement afoot in the scooter 2 stroke world.
Good.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2376
Location: London UK
Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:29 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
Jack221 wrote:
Are his kits popular on lammys?
Don't believe he lowers himself that far
That looks so much like a lammy kit. Can't imagine what else it fits.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:59 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Ginch wrote:
Jack221 wrote:
Are his kits popular on lammys?
Don't believe he lowers himself that far
Can't imagine what else it fits.
Quattrini SF case I believe. Here is the intake:

Clipboard01.jpg

Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1702
Location: california
Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:21 pm quote
Looks like it is designed for a holly 4 barely carburetor. Gracious. Would need a side car auxiliary gas tank.
Hey - waita minute!
Addicted
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1000
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:43 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Looks like it is designed for a holly 4 barely carburetor. Gracious. Would need a side car auxiliary gas tank.
Hey - waita minute!
Reed valves mount in there.


I think he missed a spot on the lower left for a port, just saying. 😂
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1166
Location: California
Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:29 pm quote
Looks like small frame to me. Is the carb in it's home or sticking outside?

Interested to know more about the technology in head and anodized gold heat sink.

Barone 154.jpg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:24 pm quote
I only posted this smallframe stuff because there was some feeling expressed that the 177 might be a bit of a muddle (perhaps indicating he didn't know what he was doing). I should have been more explicit in the first post - in fact I think I will be for anyone else reading this..
hibbert wrote:
Looks like small frame to me. Is the carb in it's home or sticking outside?

Interested to know more about the technology in head and anodized gold heat sink.
Yes this is the smallframe cylinder he produces.

Plenty of (mainly non-Vespa) producers make 2 part heads. Means you can have different characteristics in your head with just a swap of the insert. And presumably relatively cheap because it's a simple shape without any complex fins etc.
Pinasco seems to be the only one to do one amongst the mainstream manufacturers.

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