Supercharger or turbo with a Master 500 engine
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Member
GTS
Joined: 19 Aug 2020
Posts: 9
Location: Berlin Germany
Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:15 am quote
Does anyone has experience with supercharging (roots compressor or turbo) the Master 500 engine? There are some videos of Italian Nexus 500 turbos on youtube which made me interested

Thanks!
Juxus
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2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 630
Location: tampa
Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:06 pm quote
I have searched . the nexus 500 turbo is the only one I found as well. and it is impressive.

"porco nero" supercharged a 300 with a rotrex traction drive centrifugal supercharger. very impressive results as well. and is a far better idea than turbo. powerband is more predictable than turbo. hard to control tq hit on a turbo setup. also much easier to custom install supercharger. the rotrex has self contained oil/cooling . makes for very tidy install process.
Hooked
2009 MP3 400, 2004 Honda ST1300
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 254
Location: Sayre, PA
Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:28 am quote
As soon as I read the topic my first thought was this would be right up JerryD's alley.

Have to wonder how the extra compression would effect the longevity of that engine when it already has a tendency to have piston failures?
Member
GTS
Joined: 19 Aug 2020
Posts: 9
Location: Berlin Germany
Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:20 am quote
There is already a AMR300 roots compressor in my workshop waiting for an engine. Advantages compressor: predictable boost also at low rpm. Disadvantages: You need a few horses to keep it boosting. Extra belt.

So in the meanwhile I am more pro turbo. And there is space to integrate. Advantages: Lower loss of energy to produce boost, no belt. Disadvantages: hoses are more difficult and you need to control the boost.

Actually no need for torque at low rpm. The variomatic will anyway go for at least 5000-6000 rpm (Malossi 7200) during acceleration.

I am looking for people already done this - if not to a Master engine, then it would be interesting for a single cylinder.

Side fact: in the German forums the porco nero company (Stuttgart/Germany) has no good reputation, the company is accused to have too optimistic dyno results (I cannot judge). One of their mechanics is part of vespaforum.de, but unfortunately not helpful.

In Austria there is also a supercharged GTS300 https://vespaforum.de/viewtopic.php?p=650667#p650667
In the thread is written that at 0.1 bar boost few whp are missing due to the energy you need for the compressor. I am 99.9% sure that is an AMR300 in the pic.

Last edited by Juxus on Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:06 am; edited 1 time in total
Member
MP3-400
Joined: 11 Sep 2020
Posts: 17
Location: USA
Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:40 pm quote
I think we can all agree, if JerryD can make a supercharger kit for the MP3, they would fly off the shelves. The 22\29 r.w.h.p. For SMP400/500 cc is a little shy of power required to pull a big man, too. Thatís why I love midrange torque engines like Kawasaki Versys 650 and/or BMW F650 ST.

Midrange torque = Safety on expressways (or even just highways)!
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2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 630
Location: tampa
Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:21 pm quote
I researched the AMR supercharger. its an affordable way to get the job done. porco nero may not be the best business man on the planet, but I think he choose the correct tool to boost a scooter engine. unfortunately its 2000 usd for a rotrex charger. its half the size and weight of the AMR yet can move twice the air flow.

my problem is I hate supercharger whine. so AMR is out of picture for me.
Member
MP3-400
Joined: 11 Sep 2020
Posts: 17
Location: USA
Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:49 pm quote
Greetings JerryD,

Rotrex sounds like a Norton Commando charger I was considering in mid 1970ís when I owned a 1971 (my favorite) and a 1972. But keeping bolts tightened and oil leaks contained never left enough time to wire bolts down (then I was thrust into bmwís, lol.)

Safety first! Is it reliable and can the engine hold up under normal boost in daily traffic situations? Cars are very fast with EFI, and a constant threat to a bikerís life; especially on a 600 lb bike! Other than a reliable charger, Ďacetoneí is turbo in a thimble cap (about 1.25g / 10 gallons unleaded fuel); PLUS it will increase gas mileage 10+ mpg for a heavy 1994 6 cyl Dodge Dakota,

The only downside is it will melt plastics anywhere in the fuel delivery system

Is there a site (preferably in English) that successfully uses rotrex chargers on MP3ís (preferably 2013 or 2014 - 400cc may be enough with a reliable charger ?)

THANKS GREATLY!!
Addicted
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 630
Location: tampa
Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:26 am quote
I wish I could help. to me boosting a scooter engine is basically non existent. very select few have done it. I have the desire, the know how and experience to get it done. but I dont have the time right now for a new project of any kind. I am overwhelmed with my current ones.
Ossessionato
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 4207
Location: Netherlands Olst
Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:09 am quote
if you want to do something like that go for a electrionic booster or nos

a waterresistant fan inside the intake tube could give you more power

But the downside will be that the head will be you bottleneck sure you can flow the ports but the pressure will be to much resulting in cracking of the head and pistonrings

i'm talking with experiance my first tuned mp3 could hold on for less then 1/2 a year then the head was gone
Member
MP3-400
Joined: 11 Sep 2020
Posts: 17
Location: USA
Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:10 am quote
Thanks Gentlemen. Big men, balance, and midrange torque safety were evidently not meant to be
Addicted
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 630
Location: tampa
Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:31 pm quote
Schootz wrote:
Thanks Gentlemen. Big men, balance, and midrange torque safety were evidently not meant to be
Its good to see someone else in the usa with such a desire. I cant imagine how much more fun my naked MP3 would be with an extra 40hp. the chassis and brakes are built so solid I think it would be safe with over 100hp. The piston would be the only thing to the motor I would change before turbo and maybe better ex valves. . the ring pack is far too close to the top for turbo use. plus compression needs to be lowered to like 9/1.
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 500
Joined: 21 Nov 2017
Posts: 288
Location: Austin, TX
Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:15 am quote
A whole bunch of things wrong with trying to squeeze more horses from the Master engine. You'd have to lower the compression since it's already at 11:1 and suffers from detonation at that. Then there's the problem of tuning- I'm sure that the Piaggio engineers didn't add mapping in the ECU for 2 atmospheres at the intake, and probably the injector can't supply that much fuel anyway. Then if you do manage to get some additional power, the belt, clutch, bottom end, final drive reduction, everything else is engineered for the 40 HP, and will suffer accelerated wear at best, and catastrophic failure at worst. As an engineer myself, I try to assess and minimize risk, and I think that the risk of an accident due to catastrophic failure of a homebrew boost system is much greater than the risk of having a collision because of lack of power on a stock bike.

That being said, and as a big guy (260 lbs) myself, it would be fun to have say 60 HP.
Addicted
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 630
Location: tampa
Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:32 am quote
these engines can go well over 100k. that means to me its worth boosting. lifespan might drop to 25k. but I would be okay with that if it made 80hp. lowering compression is dead easy compared to proper fuel and timing. I have considered a few game plans. 40 years ago when I was 19 I turbocharged my 1967 vw bug engine. the comp was lowered to 6.9/1. I used a SU sidedraft carb on a draw though setup. the original mechanical fuel pump was used. I used no wastegate. the exhaust had no muffler. it necked down on the outlet. the outlet limited boost to 12psi. there was no intercooler. I used a simple wiper washer pump to spray water at the filter. the engine only ping when water ran out. and last the timing was locked at 16 degrees. I never hurt the engine. drove that setup 25000 miles before the whole setup was sold to a friend. I didnt have much knowledge then but the car was fast for the era. and absolute blast for a 19 yr old. 0-60mph went from 16 seconds to 7 seconds.

game plan one. the kiss plan. draw through carb conversion. and a programmable ignition.

game plan two. keep ecu stock. add extra fuel with boost only that supplied by e85 through secondary programmable (split second) injector and separate fuel system designed to use e85. the injected e85 would alleviate need to retard timing with boost.

plan three. microsquirt setup and a good intercooler. 93 only
Member
GTS
Joined: 19 Aug 2020
Posts: 9
Location: Berlin Germany
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:33 am quote
I was hoping this was done already by someone.

Standard ECU is a challenge, IAW15P is imho only usable with some tricks. I will go with a standalone ECU (already ordered), because of direct programming during dyno runs, knock sensor and more options than OEM ECU.
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Granturismo 218
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 6359
Location: NWAOK
Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:11 am quote
jerryd wrote:
I researched the AMR supercharger. its an affordable way to get the job done. porco nero may not be the best business man on the planet, but I think he choose the correct tool to boost a scooter engine. unfortunately its 2000 usd for a rotrex charger. its half the size and weight of the AMR yet can move twice the air flow.

my problem is I hate supercharger whine. so AMR is out of picture for me.
I'm surprised you haven't bought a used supercharger from the Peugeot JetForce scooter off of French ebay already.
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